Ford 1.6L 2274e bobcat engine trouble

[Ford Fanatic]

Hey guys, I'm having a problem with my ford 1.6L 2274E engine. It has 780 hours on it, (yes, its a correct reading) and it wont rev up past 1200 Rpm's. I have done the following:



1. Boiled carburetor parts and reassembled with rebuild kit-new jets, diaphragms, adj screws, springs, etcetera.

2. Replaced original breaker points/condenser distributor with pertronix distributor because who wants to deal with condensers and points that cost a fortune, and are hard to find/get?

3. Confirmed good blue spark that jumps 1/2" to engine block

4. Found intake leak between cylinders 2-3-coolant passage, causing cylinders 2-3 to burn lean (at least they were really white-potentially sucking in antifreeze) while 1 and 4 burn rich - repaired leak and now all cylinder plugs have a dark tan color to them.

5. Cold compression check-cylinders 1 and 2 have 120psi, cylinder 3 has 115 psi, and cylinder 4 has 125psi- all within 4 rotations of crankshaft

7. Took the timing cover off and verified cam timing is correct and tensioner is there (i.e. not broken), and chain is tight.

8. Adjusted valve lash to the ford power products manual for this engine and the 1.1L engine, which is .008" for intake valves and .022" for the exhaust valves. Those settings seems somewhat weird compared to other engines that I've dealt with, but eh, that's what it calls for and I ain't no engineer haha

9. I don't have the precision tools necessary to verify that the valves are opening 100% fully-which would point to a worn camshaft, but that seems very unlikely for only having 780 hours on it, plus, just watching them open and close when I rotate the crank they seem to compress their springs plenty far

10. Removed the exhaust manifold to make sure no blockages are in the pipes- i.e. mouse nests, or what have you-it sat in my garage for a few years so you never know. I've seen that in snowmobile air boxes so it was worth a look see. nothing found, all clear

With all that mentioned, it still won't rev up past 1200 RPM. Machine moves very slowly at that engine rpm, and all hydraulics work, but also very slow lift, tilt and auxiliary functions. After all that troubleshooting and repairing/replacing parts I'm at a loss. I know I'm missing something simple. any ideas from anyone who wants to share? Thanks in advance.

 

[foton]

Have you looked at the governor??

 

[Ford Fanatic]

Good evening foton. Thank you for the quick response. I have not "tested" the governor. However I have looked into that enough to know that a refurbished one will cost about $900 if that is a problem in the future. However I have removed the governor from the engine to no avail The throttle butterfly is 100% open. The choke butterfly is 100% open.

FF

 

[laurencen]

not getting enough fuel flow? try a bottle of gas with a small hole in cap, run motor and guve it a bit of gas,

 

[dfb]

To rule out the governor just disconnect the linkage at the carburetor and see if it accelerates normally. I would "snap" the throttle open to see if the rpm comes up quickly. Rule out the governor 1st before attempting to diagnose an engine performance problem.

Did you check the base ignition timing, does it advance as the rpm increases?
How does it behave at the 1200rpm it will not go past, is it bogging, misfiring or acting abnormally?

 

[knk]

I would try disconnecting the exhaust manifold and running it. I have seen the inside of the muffler, collapse and plug.

 

[Ford Fanatic]

Thanks for the ideas guys. As for squirting gas in the carb, that made it bog down. And I guess I should have mentioned that I had the exhaust off already checking for mouse nests etc. It is still essentially "straight piped" right now. I blew air through all the "header tubes" for lack of a better term. no blockages on the exhaust or intake. There was a leak between cylinders 2-3 but thats taken care of now.
@ dfb-Thanks for jumping in, because that sparked an idea that I'm gonna run past you guys. First of all, I already have the governor disconnected. But the idea that you gave me is about the timing advance system... That topic in particular is something that I'm somewhat confused on...here we go. I understand timing, and I understand advancing/retarding the timing and what that means. However, if I take the dist. cap off, (engine not running of course) disconnect the vacuum advance hose from the carburetor port and I suck on it, I can see the electronic pickup (I think that's what it's called) being drawn "clockwise" The distributor rotor turns counterclockwise, so that would mean that more vacuum = more timing advance. That test worked on the old points distributor as it does on the new pertronix distributor. It seemed like the same amount of clockwise movement. So I know that the pertronix distributor isn't acting differently than the original one. The only vacuum port on the carb is on the manifold side of the throttle butterfly. Therefore, when its idling, aka throttle butterfly closed, I would assume that the vacuum on that little hose is greatest, and when the throttle opens, the vacuum decreases, while airflow rises. I have a 65 galaxie that I put a new carburetor and a new distributor on to get rid of the points a number of years ago. I remember having a time trying to figure out why it would idle fine and rev fine in park, but under acceleration load it would spit and sputter and had absolutely no snot at all. well long story short, a friend said that I have the vacuum hose for the timing advance hooked up in the wrong spot on the carb. I had it drawing vacuum from below the throttle butterflies. (manifold side) He switched it to a port above the throttle, reset the advance with his ears -no timing light- and VIOLA! It had all kinds of power again! More airflow past that vacuum hose meant more ignition advance. So with that learning experience in mind, I'm wondering if I should rig something up to simulate what happened with my Galaxie, I.E. moving the vacuum advance hose to somewhere on the inlet side of the carb, (I would have to get creative with a drill and some silicone or something) rather than the manifold side. Is it possible that it's the wrong carb? I know that it's a zenith, at least a carb rebuild kit for a ford 1.6 Industrial 2274E fit like a fist in an eye. Or does it sound like I'm going down a rabbit hole?
However now that I've typed all that up, I suppose I should answer your question. At idle (600rpm ish) I have it set at 12 degrees advanced. The book says at 500rpm or below (sounds pretty low of an RPM I would think) to set it at 0 degrees if I read it right. But if I set it at 0, it runs, but spitty/sputtery and if I shut it off at that point, it won't start back up. So I advanced it until it starts and sounds somewhat smooth, and it starts up at that degree as well. So that's where it is. As I "snapped" the throttle, it gagged a little but then caught up to itself. (governor still disconnected) because of that, I thought maybe an issue with the accelerator pump not giving it that shot of fuel, so I took that apart again to make sure it at least had fuel in it ready to pump, and it did. However, I couldn't see it shooting out of that jet when I snapped it again. That is all that spring and diaphragm is for, right? I can deal with it taking a little longer to get up to speed, but is that vacuum operated accelerator pump absolutely vital for that to happen? If its running at idle with me holding the throttle shut, and I let off the throttle, the butterfly will open 100%, it revs to 1200 rpm, and the timing advances to 16 BTDC. Does that seem reasonable? Or does something seem off there?

 

[Atilathehun99]

For about $300 you can upgrade to electronic ignition. Not an add-in EI module but a brand new Pertronix EI distributor. I had problems with my 722's ignition and discovered the distributor shaft was worn which made the points gap go haywire when the engine warmed up. The new distributor solved that with the added bonus of EI ignition.

 

[spitzair]

It almost sounds to me like the centrifugal advance in the distributor might not be working… the reason they have you set the timing at such low RPM is so that the centrifugal advance isn't in play yet. I'll take a look in my manual tomorrow as I seem to remember you set the timing with the vaccuum advance disconnected and plugged but I'll confirm that when I look in my manual.

 

[dfb]

I would put a vacuum gauge on it at the intake manifold next before doing anything else.

As I understand your info so far base timing spec is 0 but 12 degrees is where it runs good. Your mechanical advance is only adding 4 degrees, that is not much. Don't worry about the vacuum advance now. Get a vacuum gauge on it please.

 

[dfb]

I would put a vacuum gauge on it at the intake manifold next before doing anything else.

As I understand your info so far base timing spec is 0 but 12 degrees is where it runs good. Your mechanical advance is only adding 4 degrees, that is not much. Don't worry about the vacuum advance now. Get a vacuum gauge on it please.

BTW, is the firing order correct?

 

[spitzair]

Here's what the manual says as far as ignition timing… In my experience, the timing advances significantly more as the revs go up, but I don't have a timing light handy otherwise I'd go and see what mine is at different RPMs for you…
On edit I also found the amount of advance in the specifications… by 1800 rpm you should see 23 degrees of advance on the crankshaft so my theory, and someone correct me if I'm wrong here, is that by 1200 RPM you should see approximately 11 and a half degrees of advance on top of what you set initially…

 

[dfb]

A vacuum gauge and timing light are essential for an accurate diagnosis.

BTW, the Petronix kit doesn't mention anything about a rev limiter function does it?

Weak valve springs can limit rpm, even if all your advance is not coming in that engine should rev beyond 1200.

A vacuum gauge will give you the most information about how the engine is performing/misbehaving.

 

[laurencen]

is it possible someone changed the carb and its too small for the motor?

 

[Ford Fanatic]

WOW thanks for all the input guys. I've been on a couple other issues lately, and then with the snow we got around here, I've just been busy and life happens. However, lots of questions to answer and things to look into.

@spitzair- That is some good information about the mechanical advance. Thank you for that. I know it exists, and I can feel the "spring back" when I hold the gear part still while my neighbor slightly twists the rotor. It is definitely there and it ain't stuck or anything. Now whether its working or not might be a different story. However it does seem to advance a few degrees between 600-1200 rpm. So maybe that is working, and the intake isn't building enough vacuum to advance the timing more? I'll have to get it set to 0 degrees at 500rpm with everything plugged off and go from there. I must have missed that page in the specs section of my book. It's definitely not advancing 11 extra degrees by 1200 rpm, but I don't have it set at 0 at 500 rpm either. I'm thinking I ought to go after DFB's thoughts first though. Cause if it ain't making decent vacuum for whatever reason, then I don't guess that there's gonna be much vacuum advance happening anyway.

DFB- I will definitely be hooking up a vacuum gauge to the intake and let you know what I see, as I'm not totally sure what readings I'm looking for at "x" rpms. As for the ignition timing, yes it's correct. 1-2-4-3. I even doublechecked against the valve movements because that's the first time that I saw anything other than 1-3-4-2 on an inline 4. its always something lol
As for the pertronix distributor and a rev limiter function, that isn't ringing any bells. And I ain't gonna bs you, I had no idea that distributors had anything to do with limiting how much an engine can rev. I thought that was mainly the governors job, as well as maintaining RPM under load of course. Unless they can begin to retard the timing when rpm gets too high, and that's how they do it? Just guessing. I do have a timing light with a digital readout so I can see RPM's, and timing advance. I have a vacuum gauge somewhere too, but I gotta find it or borrow one for this.

@ Laurencen- I was honestly wondering the same thing! It acts almost as if it needs more air, not more fuel. cause it does burn a little richer than I think it should be. But there is still the timing issue ^^ that I need to address first. The throat in the carb is much smaller that the intake hole where the carb mounts, but then again, when I bought the rebuild kit for the carb, I bought it for a ford 1.6 Industrial 2274E, and all the gaskets, needles, etc were an exact fit for the zenith carb that was on there. Maybe my zenith carb is for a 1.1L ford motor, and I just dumbed into buying the kit for for a 1.1L carb as well? I mean, I was going off of the pictures of the internals online since I didn't have carb numbers off the original to reference off of. It was really hard to find anyway. But I'll be taking the carb off again and scouring it for numbers to confirm that it is/isn't correct.

Thanks again for all the input from everybody. I really appreciate it. I will get back into the 2274E engine very soon, probably by Thursday I'll have my shop emptied out again and be all caught up with other maintenance issues that I ran into. I'll get back soon.

FF

 

[dfb]

Any updates?

 

[Ford Fanatic]

Yes! I have updates! I was very busy with snow (the tried and true old fashioned way) and then my clutch slave cylinder in my truck went out, so yea. I'm sure you've al been there. But I'm back with news/updates for you guys.

I put my vacuum gauge on the bottom of the carb where the vacuum hose for the distributor advance goes, and while sitting there running at 1200 rpm, I had nothing. granted the carb butterfly was open, so I would expect that. however when I closed the throttle, the rpms dropped to 600ish according to my timing light, and vacuum jumped to a flutter between 16 and 19" hg. With the throttle opened a tiny bit and then the gauge stopped fluttering but still read about 15" hg. seems like enough...right? I've used that gauge to set Idle air adj screws on vehicle carbs, but never understood the science behind the method--adjust until you achieve the highest calmest vacuum possible.

Number next: I played with the distributor a little bit. I don't see any advance happening anymore when I rev from 600 to 1200. It stays put around 16 degrees advanced. My neighbor (and maybe you guys too-I don't remember) informed me of a mechanical advance inside the distributor. So considering where the port that the vacuum is drawn from is only provided vacuum when the throttle is closed, I'm gonna say that the vacuum advance is trying to fight the mechanical advance. Rev up, mechanical advance advances' the timing, but at the same time, the vacuum advance loses its suction and the ignition pickup rotates CCW and the timing advance is cancelled out so to speak. Does that theory make sense?

At any rate, I found a holly 1904 knockoff that has very close to the same hole spacing for mounting purposes, but a bigger throat to suck more air through. and I should be able to change out main jet sizes to lean it out as well. at least I should be able to find jets for it on this side of the world. maybe the jets that I have for the 4106 in my van will be the same? I'll figure that out soon I'm sure. But the big reason is that the holly carb has a vacuum port ABOVE the throttle blade, so the distributor should get its vacuum advance while I'm on the throttle, not when I close it. Then over the weekend I realized that I need a spacer to lift the carb off the intake a little bit due to the throttle arm contacting it in the idle position. That should be arriving on Thursday.

Again sorry for the late response. any input is still appreciated. Thanks again.

FF

 

[dfb]

My concern is the more stuff you change the further away you are getting from repairing the actual problem. "Mecahnics vertigo" is a term used when several items get changed and you lose track of what caused what.

Set the timing to where it is supposed to be, read the manifold vacuum at that point. You should be taking your vacuum reading from a manifold source{below the throttle plate} at idle. Google a chart for interpreting vacuum gauge readings. Use the pcv hose if you can not find a manifold source.

 

[tlj]

Th

Yes! I have updates! I was very busy with snow (the tried and true old fashioned way) and then my clutch slave cylinder in my truck went out, so yea. I'm sure you've al been there. But I'm back with news/updates for you guys.

I put my vacuum gauge on the bottom of the carb where the vacuum hose for the distributor advance goes, and while sitting there running at 1200 rpm, I had nothing. granted the carb butterfly was open, so I would expect that. however when I closed the throttle, the rpms dropped to 600ish according to my timing light, and vacuum jumped to a flutter between 16 and 19" hg. With the throttle opened a tiny bit and then the gauge stopped fluttering but still read about 15" hg. seems like enough...right? I've used that gauge to set Idle air adj screws on vehicle carbs, but never understood the science behind the method--adjust until you achieve the highest calmest vacuum possible.

Number next: I played with the distributor a little bit. I don't see any advance happening anymore when I rev from 600 to 1200. It stays put around 16 degrees advanced. My neighbor (and maybe you guys too-I don't remember) informed me of a mechanical advance inside the distributor. So considering where the port that the vacuum is drawn from is only provided vacuum when the throttle is closed, I'm gonna say that the vacuum advance is trying to fight the mechanical advance. Rev up, mechanical advance advances' the timing, but at the same time, the vacuum advance loses its suction and the ignition pickup rotates CCW and the timing advance is cancelled out so to speak. Does that theory make sense?

At any rate, I found a holly 1904 knockoff that has very close to the same hole spacing for mounting purposes, but a bigger throat to suck more air through. and I should be able to change out main jet sizes to lean it out as well. at least I should be able to find jets for it on this side of the world. maybe the jets that I have for the 4106 in my van will be the same? I'll figure that out soon I'm sure. But the big reason is that the holly carb has a vacuum port ABOVE the throttle blade, so the distributor should get its vacuum advance while I'm on the throttle, not when I close it. Then over the weekend I realized that I need a spacer to lift the carb off the intake a little bit due to the throttle arm contacting it in the idle position. That should be arriving on Thursday.

Again sorry for the late response. any input is still appreciated. Thanks again.

FF

e spark advance is provided by mechanical, the vacuum retards spark. Throttle closed high vacuum spark retarded. Choke closed high vacuum spark retarded. Both open reves up no vacume mechanical advances spark.

 

[Ford Fanatic]

My concern is the more stuff you change the further away you are getting from repairing the actual problem. "Mecahnics vertigo" is a term used when several items get changed and you lose track of what caused what.

Set the timing to where it is supposed to be, read the manifold vacuum at that point. You should be taking your vacuum reading from a manifold source{below the throttle plate} at idle. Google a chart for interpreting vacuum gauge readings. Use the pcv hose if you can not find a manifold source.

Mechanics vertigo...yep. I had a dumb moment yesterday. On my vacuum gauge, there is inches of mercury, and cm of mercury. I was reading the cm of hg, and interpteted it as inches of hg. Sorry for that bad info. According to my book ( which is different from what spitzair said - Not calling anyone out or making any accusations, I might be misunderstood. I'll try to post a picture of the timing specs for you that I tried to follow).

For VACUUM advance, I should "set the test stand to 0 degrees @ 1000 rpm and 0"hg."

For the centrifugal advance, I should "set test stand to 0 degrees and 250 distributor rpms (500 crankshaft rpms? right?) and 0"hg."

I am assuming that this "test stand" that they speak of has a gadget on it to monitor/control the distributors vacuum.

I don't know how to "set" the "hg to 0 other than disconnect/plug the hose. So thats what I did. I hooked up the vacuum gauge to the pcv valve port. I plugged the distributor vacuum hose, and fired it up. I retarded the timing to 0 degrees. It ran at 470-500 rpm, fluttering between 1-4" hg. Yes I used the right markings on the gauge this time lol I could not rev it up AT ALL without it dying and a puff out the carb. So with those instructions, I can't hit the 1000 rpm that the book is calling for. Then I looked up a chart on google, and if I did that test right, then the site with the chart is saying a burnt valve. Would you say that I am following their instructions correctly?