Synthetic oil a must with Turbos

[tdeal823]

The theory is not that the turbo spools up while towing but just that it turns without oil, doing damage to the bearings, then when its started the bearing are really dry when the turbo spools up. It may have been a coincedence the one on the 740 skidder failed when it did, but with only 1200 hours on the machine, it ran fine onto the float, when we went to unload it it smoked terribly black and would barely pull itself. When we pulled the air filters to see what was happening we found pieces of the compressor turbine inside the air filter housing on the clean side of the filters. Apaently it crashed right after startup.
Ken

Synthetic is not a must. But it has proven itself to me that it is better. I run amsoil in all my car and trucks. Switched to amsoil in wife minivan at 75000. noticed a slight improvement in fuel milage. Switched to amsoil at 150,000 in my 2002 Ford 7.3L Powerstroke diesel. (rotella t 15-40 up to that point) huge improvement. Better starts, better milage, quiter running motor. The 7.3L ford and the older 5.9L cummins both use motor oil to fire the injectors. This is where the better lubrication helps with the noise and also helps those expensive injectors live longer. As for my Bobcat....Since it is used and I just bought it. I will be doing a few short dino oil changes then switching to amsoil for the motor. as for synthetics clean better than dino.... that is false. the truth is that dino oil wear out and synthetic does not. so as long as you have the proper filtration to remove the debri from the oil synthetic will last a long time. all diesel oils clean. just that dino has a shorter life span than syn. as for pyrometer readings. a diesel truck may only run at 1000 - 1300 degrees for a short time. in farm tractors it is not uncommon to see 1600 - 2000 because they are built to use and pull very heavy stuff. also most tractor with gauges say in the manuals to idle the tractor till the EGT (exhaust gas temp) shows 200-300. if you shut it down early you will have "heat soak" with the motor running the exhaust is forcing the hotter air out the exhaust if you shut down the tractor early say at 800 degrees that hotter temp will now "soak" back through the turbo to the motor and injection and cause big problems. This was tought to me by old farmers and new age synthetic engineers cya tony

 

[Mr_C]

Synthetic is not a must. But it has proven itself to me that it is better. I run amsoil in all my car and trucks. Switched to amsoil in wife minivan at 75000. noticed a slight improvement in fuel milage. Switched to amsoil at 150,000 in my 2002 Ford 7.3L Powerstroke diesel. (rotella t 15-40 up to that point) huge improvement. Better starts, better milage, quiter running motor. The 7.3L ford and the older 5.9L cummins both use motor oil to fire the injectors. This is where the better lubrication helps with the noise and also helps those expensive injectors live longer. As for my Bobcat....Since it is used and I just bought it. I will be doing a few short dino oil changes then switching to amsoil for the motor. as for synthetics clean better than dino.... that is false. the truth is that dino oil wear out and synthetic does not. so as long as you have the proper filtration to remove the debri from the oil synthetic will last a long time. all diesel oils clean. just that dino has a shorter life span than syn. as for pyrometer readings. a diesel truck may only run at 1000 - 1300 degrees for a short time. in farm tractors it is not uncommon to see 1600 - 2000 because they are built to use and pull very heavy stuff. also most tractor with gauges say in the manuals to idle the tractor till the EGT (exhaust gas temp) shows 200-300. if you shut it down early you will have "heat soak" with the motor running the exhaust is forcing the hotter air out the exhaust if you shut down the tractor early say at 800 degrees that hotter temp will now "soak" back through the turbo to the motor and injection and cause big problems. This was tought to me by old farmers and new age synthetic engineers cya tony

There is lots of good info about synthetics here, and thier resistance to heat is the main reason why they are good for turbo motors... but no one has mentioned the main reason why I run synthetic in ALL of my cars/trucks/bikes/tractors. It isn't its high temp behavior that sells me, its the low temp advantages. Synth oil just doesn't get as thick when it gets really cold (like it does here in northern MN). Put Synth oil in your motor and at 20 below it will start amazingly better. Many years back I did a test. 5w30 dyno oil and 5w30 Mobil 1. Put them both outside on a cold night, measured the temp at -18 deg f. Mobil would still slosh around when you shook the container, dyno oil was so thick you couldn't squeeze it out of the bottle! I decided to try the test when working at a gas station and someone asked me to put some oil in thier motor on a cold night, they had the oil in thier trunk. I litterally couldn't get any oil out of the bottle, and had to exchange it for a warmer one in the shop! Just think about how long it takes the oil to warm up enough that it can be pumped up to the valve train. Even a pre-oiler couldn't pump that sludge. Synthetic oil and all my motors turn over nicely on cold winter mornings... its a night and day difference. Mr_C

 

[coreya3212]

There is lots of good info about synthetics here, and thier resistance to heat is the main reason why they are good for turbo motors... but no one has mentioned the main reason why I run synthetic in ALL of my cars/trucks/bikes/tractors. It isn't its high temp behavior that sells me, its the low temp advantages. Synth oil just doesn't get as thick when it gets really cold (like it does here in northern MN). Put Synth oil in your motor and at 20 below it will start amazingly better. Many years back I did a test. 5w30 dyno oil and 5w30 Mobil 1. Put them both outside on a cold night, measured the temp at -18 deg f. Mobil would still slosh around when you shook the container, dyno oil was so thick you couldn't squeeze it out of the bottle! I decided to try the test when working at a gas station and someone asked me to put some oil in thier motor on a cold night, they had the oil in thier trunk. I litterally couldn't get any oil out of the bottle, and had to exchange it for a warmer one in the shop! Just think about how long it takes the oil to warm up enough that it can be pumped up to the valve train. Even a pre-oiler couldn't pump that sludge. Synthetic oil and all my motors turn over nicely on cold winter mornings... its a night and day difference. Mr_C

Quote "wide open starts and hot shut downs are the killer " Fish, whats a wide open start?

Which synthetic oil does everyone recommend in there cummings turbos and i am assuming these dont void warranty or anything?. I am about 5 seconds from buying a 2500 HD Dodge with the 6.7 turbo. I honestly have never cared about this stuff, I have always had a compnay provided pick up truck and turn them over every 2 years at the most. I eneded up stealing a large travel trailer recently and now need something to pull it so figure I better get my own rig. Company half ton wont pull this girl...any comment appreciated. Corey

 

[skidsteer.ca]

Quote "wide open starts and hot shut downs are the killer " Fish, whats a wide open start?

Which synthetic oil does everyone recommend in there cummings turbos and i am assuming these dont void warranty or anything?. I am about 5 seconds from buying a 2500 HD Dodge with the 6.7 turbo. I honestly have never cared about this stuff, I have always had a compnay provided pick up truck and turn them over every 2 years at the most. I eneded up stealing a large travel trailer recently and now need something to pull it so figure I better get my own rig. Company half ton wont pull this girl...any comment appreciated. Corey

The best place to read up on that is at www.dieselram.com
Ken

 

[tdeal823]

Quote "wide open starts and hot shut downs are the killer " Fish, whats a wide open start?

Which synthetic oil does everyone recommend in there cummings turbos and i am assuming these dont void warranty or anything?. I am about 5 seconds from buying a 2500 HD Dodge with the 6.7 turbo. I honestly have never cared about this stuff, I have always had a compnay provided pick up truck and turn them over every 2 years at the most. I eneded up stealing a large travel trailer recently and now need something to pull it so figure I better get my own rig. Company half ton wont pull this girl...any comment appreciated. Corey

buy an old 5.9ram or 7.3ford with the 6 speed manual.
either motors with the manual are great pulling machines
the 6.7 has yet to impress me. my friend with the 6.7auto is only getting 16hwy and 9 towing his 28' TT
The 5.9 or 7.3 will do better than that

 

[coreya3212]

buy an old 5.9ram or 7.3ford with the 6 speed manual.
either motors with the manual are great pulling machines
the 6.7 has yet to impress me. my friend with the 6.7auto is only getting 16hwy and 9 towing his 28' TT
The 5.9 or 7.3 will do better than that

Thanks Ken for the link. I will read up.
The deal I am getting on this truck in particular is too good to pass on. 2008, 103000 km SLT, Dodge Ram 2500HD. Cost about 13 K. I cant find another one for sale for less than 26 grand. This is western canada, so all you US guys, I know your stuff is cheaper. I still get a daily driver from my company so I think this truck will do the trick for me. If i dont like it, I will turn it around for a profit. Dont like the fuel mileage you mention though....my TT is a 30'...I will probably only put about 2000 km a year on it at the most.

 

[Rustytools]

Thanks Ken for the link. I will read up.
The deal I am getting on this truck in particular is too good to pass on. 2008, 103000 km SLT, Dodge Ram 2500HD. Cost about 13 K. I cant find another one for sale for less than 26 grand. This is western canada, so all you US guys, I know your stuff is cheaper. I still get a daily driver from my company so I think this truck will do the trick for me. If i dont like it, I will turn it around for a profit. Dont like the fuel mileage you mention though....my TT is a 30'...I will probably only put about 2000 km a year on it at the most.

Mr. C Has one of the best points so far, that of cold weather operation. I don't have much time on skid steers, but I drove heavy equipment for 10 plus years, and turbo failures are very rare. I had an exhaust bearing seal go, and in 4 hours the oil circulating through the turbo has absorbed enough carbon to make it as thick as mollasis. That being said, it is common practice to let your equipment cool down for 5 minutes before shutdown, so the point about how oil cokes and restricts flow is not a maintenance issue so much as an operational/education issue. One company I was with switched to synthetic, and were able to double the time between oil changes. This definitly is attractive when managing large, dispersed fleet maintenance. One thing no one has touched on is particulate(sludge) accumulation. Crap will build up in certain areas of your engine, like around webs, inside the piston pin, in crooks and corners, and there it will stay untill you change to an oil with different characteristic, especially synthetic. In aviation, when someone switches to or from synthetic oil, we must do the oil change, run the engine for 1/2 hour at temperature, and then change the oil again. The different detergents, additives, and flow characteristics will usually loosen some of the build up contamination in the engine, and by running at temp. for 1/2 hour you remove it from the system immediatly. One thing to consider is an oil pan heating pad or element. Just RTV it to your oil pan, and you just got rid of many cold weather issues. As for pre-oilers, well, on older equipment, by the time it starts you have usually done enough cranking to pre-oil the entire system. When was the last time your main or rod bearings went on a vehicle you own? Probably never. If you have, Was lack of oil really the problem? And if this was the cause, unless the machine sat for two years without being turned over, the most likely fault is probably the mechanic not filling the oil filter up with oil before installation. One more thing about cold weather starting. Is your hydraulic fluid synthetic? It doesn't help to have an easy turning engine when the pump it drives will barely turn.

 

[tdeal823]

Mr. C Has one of the best points so far, that of cold weather operation. I don't have much time on skid steers, but I drove heavy equipment for 10 plus years, and turbo failures are very rare. I had an exhaust bearing seal go, and in 4 hours the oil circulating through the turbo has absorbed enough carbon to make it as thick as mollasis. That being said, it is common practice to let your equipment cool down for 5 minutes before shutdown, so the point about how oil cokes and restricts flow is not a maintenance issue so much as an operational/education issue. One company I was with switched to synthetic, and were able to double the time between oil changes. This definitly is attractive when managing large, dispersed fleet maintenance. One thing no one has touched on is particulate(sludge) accumulation. Crap will build up in certain areas of your engine, like around webs, inside the piston pin, in crooks and corners, and there it will stay untill you change to an oil with different characteristic, especially synthetic. In aviation, when someone switches to or from synthetic oil, we must do the oil change, run the engine for 1/2 hour at temperature, and then change the oil again. The different detergents, additives, and flow characteristics will usually loosen some of the build up contamination in the engine, and by running at temp. for 1/2 hour you remove it from the system immediatly. One thing to consider is an oil pan heating pad or element. Just RTV it to your oil pan, and you just got rid of many cold weather issues. As for pre-oilers, well, on older equipment, by the time it starts you have usually done enough cranking to pre-oil the entire system. When was the last time your main or rod bearings went on a vehicle you own? Probably never. If you have, Was lack of oil really the problem? And if this was the cause, unless the machine sat for two years without being turned over, the most likely fault is probably the mechanic not filling the oil filter up with oil before installation. One more thing about cold weather starting. Is your hydraulic fluid synthetic? It doesn't help to have an easy turning engine when the pump it drives will barely turn.

Hummmmm.
Synthetic Hydraulic oil...... never thought about doing that. Thats quite a bit more oil the whole hyd system and the chain case on my 773 is most likely more than 10 gallons.
I have never did a whole flush but I wonder how the old dino hyd and syn. hyd fluid would mix?

 

[coreya3212]

Hummmmm.
Synthetic Hydraulic oil...... never thought about doing that. Thats quite a bit more oil the whole hyd system and the chain case on my 773 is most likely more than 10 gallons.
I have never did a whole flush but I wonder how the old dino hyd and syn. hyd fluid would mix?

I wish the hyd oil reservoir on my 825 was 10 gallons....

 

[tdeal823]

I wish the hyd oil reservoir on my 825 was 10 gallons....

10gal
thats chain case and hyd system
and 10gal is about what i used to clean and fill both

 

[toomanymachines]

where does the air go to spin a turbo when being towed? it the pipe through the turbo into a cyl till it hits a closed valve.....how would it go out??? no flow=no spin.....

I run 0w40 in my deutz aircooled holder.. much easier to start than the 15w40. Alot of guys up here in the cold belt run it in tractors some all year but alot for the winter. I also agree that the turbo spinning in transport is a bunch of b.s. not saying it cannot happen.. but the chance that the valves are both open to allow the air to charge the exhaust, and blow through the cylinder and back into the intake causing the turbo to spin dry.. when a 4 stroke changes from the exhaust stroke to the intake stroke I don't think that the valves overlap. One should be completely closed before the intake opens.

 

[skidsteer.ca]

I run 0w40 in my deutz aircooled holder.. much easier to start than the 15w40. Alot of guys up here in the cold belt run it in tractors some all year but alot for the winter. I also agree that the turbo spinning in transport is a bunch of b.s. not saying it cannot happen.. but the chance that the valves are both open to allow the air to charge the exhaust, and blow through the cylinder and back into the intake causing the turbo to spin dry.. when a 4 stroke changes from the exhaust stroke to the intake stroke I don't think that the valves overlap. One should be completely closed before the intake opens.

"when a 4 stroke changes from the exhaust stroke to the intake stroke I don't think that the valves overlap. One should be completely closed before the intake opens."
In theory, but in reality there is around 50 degrees of crankshaft rotation with both valves off their seats.
http://openticle.com/2008/02/14/diesel-engine-the-four-stroke-cycle-intake/
Ken

 

[Kanman]

where does the air go to spin a turbo when being towed? it the pipe through the turbo into a cyl till it hits a closed valve.....how would it go out??? no flow=no spin.....

This is something as a trucker and owner operator I've delt with for years lol. I was always taught to: hood and duct tape the exhaust stack before moving it. Some places like Cat won't let you leave their facilities until this has been done. They provide canvas hoods, i provide $.02 worth of duct tape. Other places will laugh U off the docks when they see you climb up to bag a stack. I for one will never deliver a half million dollar peice of equipment and explain they can't use it because the turbo is shot... Then Again, I've never actually witnessed this occur in 20 some years of being around heavy equipment. As far as turbos and oil (any oil) IMO the best thing you can ever do is let your engine idle for a few moments before shutting off the engine. Turbos spin upto 100k rpm and beyond. As stated earlier they glide on a small film of oil. When that engine is shut off, the turbo is still spinning with no source of constant lube. The hotter the day, the longer it should be left to idle down before shutting off. Personaly I feel if you can afford synthetics, go for it! Be aware there are synthetics, and semi-synthetics which are a mixture of synthetic and Dino oil. Not a bad thing, just that I've talked to guys who thought they were buying pure when in fact it was semi. I own my own semi truck, and buy what ever oil is on sale at the time. Usually Rotella, Dello, Delvac, whatever. I just make sure I keep it changed at regular intervals. My current truck has 800k and still flys up the mountains w/ the best of them. *knock wood*

 

[V65ozzie]

Thats good infofmation and makes sence. They recomend to idle at a minute or two before shutting down. Im sure the torbo still gets hotter after shutdown as does the rest of the engine.I recently rebuilt my lx865. The turbo had a lot of carbon Buildup inside. I took it appart and cleaned everything. What I thought was carbon from the exhaust could have been cooked oil built up. They dont recomend taking a turbo apart but it was that or a new one. The book shows it being rebuildable. the dealer told me they dont do that,they replace them. They dont have mechanics just part changers.My turbo is doing fine at 85 hours since the cleaning.I would like to keep it clean. I dont use offroad fuel, sorry Im running on.
If you have some information on that prelube system I would apreciate it.Im not dougting what you say about the oil. Was there an article that you read.? I have been using Rotella T 15w-40 sence the rebuild. 85 hours ago. Would it hurt my engine to synthetic at this point? Mike

I instruct my customers to return the engine to idle for a couple of minutes before shutdown. Just something I've always personally done. My favorite synthetic oil myth: You can't mix synthetic and dino oil.........hmmmm? Explain semi synthetics? Once you use synthetic you can't go back to dino oil.......... sheesh, really? We use dino oil in our diesel equipment.