ls190 starter issue

[terracefarmer]

I've had this machine for almost 7 years now, been in many shops, nobody seems to be able to fix it yet or know what's wrong with it. This skid steer has been plagued with nothing but electrical issues from the first day I bought it. What its always done is, the starter turns over slow, or sometimes not at all like its under such a load it can't turn over, in cold weather its worse, once it cranks it always starts up and runs. I've had the starter out many times over the years, usually about twice a year and have it looked at, that alone has been in many repair shops and this particular time, it got a new solenoid put on it, the brushes and rest checked out fine. About six months ago, we ended up putting on all new battery cables, new battery, not the first by any means, cleaned up all the grounds and it worked fine till it burned my solenoid so badly smoke started to come out of it. This time around we again cleaned up the connections, battery tested fine, sat for a week and still tested fine, put the starter in, hooked everything up and put the fuel filter back on and hit the starter, the engine never started, but rolled over so we attempted to bleed the fuel line and get the air out. Hit the switch the second time and the starter slowed up cranking, then speeded back up, stopped altogether and then started back up again, and then went from slow to normal cranking back and forth constantly changing cranking speed while cranking. Then it wouldn't stop cranking, after the switch was turned off, so I pulled the small wire off the solenoid and it kept cranking, tried to unhook the battery and it melted both terminals off the battery before I got it unhooked. I'm thinking a short somewhere?? The speeding up and slowing down of the cranking speed is a new one, same for the locked on solenoid and melting of the battery terminals, any idea as to where to start looking and what to do. None of the dealers near me have a clue as to why it's always cranked slow and had starter issues, we've changed everything in the starting system more than once before and nothing has helped as of yet. Looking for ideas, thanks in advance for any input on this problem.

 

[Mike10]

You say battery, the LS190 uses two batteries. Is this a LS190.B? Not for sure what they use, without looking it up, but the regular LS190 uses two batteries with side terminals.

 

[terracefarmer]

You say battery, the LS190 uses two batteries. Is this a LS190.B? Not for sure what they use, without looking it up, but the regular LS190 uses two batteries with side terminals.

We were replacing the two batteries about once a year, along with the cables, so I switched them to a single top thread battery along with new cables the last time around, not quite the same cold cranking amps, but close and that way could hook up several batteries at once, up to three at a time just outside the skid steer to test and see if it made a difference in overall cranking performance, which it didn't. Both the starter repair shop and my new Holland repair guy told me to use the larger single battery instead of the two smaller batteries to save the extra connections and possible problems area's. We also put larger diameter cable's on the last time as well. New Holland makes a gear reduction starter that would fit, but due to the fuel filter housing will be in the way, I can't put it on. We load tested the battery, cables and have enough volts and amps at the battery, we checked that before hitting the starter this time around, we also tested it before we pulled the starter out to have the solenoid put on, due to it wouldn't roll over at all, just heat up the cables and connections and make the solenoid smoke. I watched my starter guy bench test the starter, it worked fine after the solenoid was put on it, they checked over the armature and brushes, bushings, and checked for a short in the starter, basically the starter is in great shape. The starter shop claims the problem is in the skid steer somewhere, the New Holland mechanics in my area tell me its in the starter if everything checks out fine with the battery, and cables. I asked the starter fix it guy, who's done great work for me for over a decade, never had an issue with anything he's worked on, but this skid steer starter, if the starter would act differently once its under a load and in the machine, he told me he'd never had one, he's in his 70's and done this all his life. The only thing I didn't check, that my starter guy told me to, was while it was being cranked, to check the voltage at the starter activation wire from the switch as I tried to start it, he said it might be the culprit. I checked it before I hooked it up, I had almost 12 volts, but didn't check it as I cranked it over, totally forgot to do that.

 

[Mike10]

We were replacing the two batteries about once a year, along with the cables, so I switched them to a single top thread battery along with new cables the last time around, not quite the same cold cranking amps, but close and that way could hook up several batteries at once, up to three at a time just outside the skid steer to test and see if it made a difference in overall cranking performance, which it didn't. Both the starter repair shop and my new Holland repair guy told me to use the larger single battery instead of the two smaller batteries to save the extra connections and possible problems area's. We also put larger diameter cable's on the last time as well. New Holland makes a gear reduction starter that would fit, but due to the fuel filter housing will be in the way, I can't put it on. We load tested the battery, cables and have enough volts and amps at the battery, we checked that before hitting the starter this time around, we also tested it before we pulled the starter out to have the solenoid put on, due to it wouldn't roll over at all, just heat up the cables and connections and make the solenoid smoke. I watched my starter guy bench test the starter, it worked fine after the solenoid was put on it, they checked over the armature and brushes, bushings, and checked for a short in the starter, basically the starter is in great shape. The starter shop claims the problem is in the skid steer somewhere, the New Holland mechanics in my area tell me its in the starter if everything checks out fine with the battery, and cables. I asked the starter fix it guy, who's done great work for me for over a decade, never had an issue with anything he's worked on, but this skid steer starter, if the starter would act differently once its under a load and in the machine, he told me he'd never had one, he's in his 70's and done this all his life. The only thing I didn't check, that my starter guy told me to, was while it was being cranked, to check the voltage at the starter activation wire from the switch as I tried to start it, he said it might be the culprit. I checked it before I hooked it up, I had almost 12 volts, but didn't check it as I cranked it over, totally forgot to do that.

It seems you have tried everything but the starter, maybe it is time to try that. By the way, the two battery setup gives you 1260CCA and the single battery gives you 950-1000CCA. I am also not a fan of locally make battery cables. They work fine for a while but eventually corrosion will do them in. IF you have hydros that are not neutralizing they also add to the drag on the engine.

 

[terracefarmer]

It seems you have tried everything but the starter, maybe it is time to try that. By the way, the two battery setup gives you 1260CCA and the single battery gives you 950-1000CCA. I am also not a fan of locally make battery cables. They work fine for a while but eventually corrosion will do them in. IF you have hydros that are not neutralizing they also add to the drag on the engine.

I've actually done the exchange with New Holland for a new standard starter in the past, not sure how many hours ago that was without looking it up, the new one that time, which is the one I have now on it, acted the exact same way the one we exchanged does now and has since we put it on. What are the odd's of two in a row having the same issue's?? Has anyone somehow moved the fuel filter assembly and put a gear reduction starter on before? Do the gear reduction starters perform better than the standard starters on a 190? If a person would move the filter housing, where could it be put to allow for the longer gear reduction starter. The hydro neutralizing idea, please explain this, the steering levers are adjusted well enough, I don't need to use the parking brake to prevent the skid steer from moving, or isn't that what your talking about.

 

[terracefarmer]

I've actually done the exchange with New Holland for a new standard starter in the past, not sure how many hours ago that was without looking it up, the new one that time, which is the one I have now on it, acted the exact same way the one we exchanged does now and has since we put it on. What are the odd's of two in a row having the same issue's?? Has anyone somehow moved the fuel filter assembly and put a gear reduction starter on before? Do the gear reduction starters perform better than the standard starters on a 190? If a person would move the filter housing, where could it be put to allow for the longer gear reduction starter. The hydro neutralizing idea, please explain this, the steering levers are adjusted well enough, I don't need to use the parking brake to prevent the skid steer from moving, or isn't that what your talking about.

Just giving an update of what I found so far. We put in another battery and gave it some more testing, the voltage at the starter doesn't drop below 10 volts from the battery when the starter is cranking in the machine, nearly 11 volts when we bench test it out of the machine. The solenoid wire from the ignition switch is low on voltage when the starter is engaged, down to 8.3 as its cranking in the machine. When we jump from the battery cable terminal to the solenoid activation screw, its 8.3 volts, so I have a major issue when the starter is in the machine. I've been told the volts should never drop below 9 and ideally never below 10. Now the part that I don't understand fully, when we tested it outside the machine the solenoid never got hot, just normal to the touch temp, when its in the machine, no matter how we tried to start it, the solenoid gets too hot to touch, low voltage could be a contributing factor when its cranking. So do I have an issue within the skid steer or just a starter, battery and cable issue.