10W30 with HTO or Hydraulic oil?

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Seamonkeyboy

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Apr 21, 2023
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Yes this is in general discussion because many old tractors say (in the manuel's) to use 10W30 with an HTO additive for hydraulic fluid. My Case 1845C is one of them. Can anyone recommend a compatible hydraulic oil? I am aware that AW32 has the same viscosity as 10W30 but I believe I need a hydraulic oil with zinc and one that emulsifies (combines not separates water). I live in humid Louisiana. Can anyone out there give me a specific brand please? Tractor is done and awaiting hydro fluid. Btw, Case does not make the HTO additive anymore and it is expensive regardless what brand you buy. Thank you.
 
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Seamonkeyboy

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I have read for hours and hours on this stuff. My true intention is to use 10W30. Ill make it simple. Can anyone direct me to the correct additive? Ill spend the extra bucks.
 

mrbb

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why not just buy the oil Case recommends, I am sure they sell something for there machines, even if outdated, they still serve them
I know my NH (1999) machine calls for 10w-30 and they still sell correct fluids for it?
or again, ask dealer what additive they add?
 
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Seamonkeyboy

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why not just buy the oil Case recommends, I am sure they sell something for there machines, even if outdated, they still serve them
I know my NH (1999) machine calls for 10w-30 and they still sell correct fluids for it?
or again, ask dealer what additive they add?
Ok thanks. Ill go to another dealer. I already went to one yesterday. They looked at their chart on the desk and said "yes, 10W30 with the additive". I thought there may have been some technological advances since 1990 that would replace the 10W30.
 

mrbb

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Ok thanks. Ill go to another dealer. I already went to one yesterday. They looked at their chart on the desk and said "yes, 10W30 with the additive". I thought there may have been some technological advances since 1990 that would replace the 10W30.
there have been many advances in oils over the yrs but that doesn't change the fact the machine at hand was designed around a oil that was in use back then, and should be running the same fluid, it was designed for
changing fluids to more modern can lead to issues, , as more modern fluids can some things be thinner and flow past older seals and gaskets and such made for that older style fluid
as many have said, when something has worked for a LONG time, why switch to new things,(or if it ain;'t broke why fix it?)
as a proven track record can save one many frustrations , HAHA!
 

cdmccul

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504
there have been many advances in oils over the yrs but that doesn't change the fact the machine at hand was designed around a oil that was in use back then, and should be running the same fluid, it was designed for
changing fluids to more modern can lead to issues, , as more modern fluids can some things be thinner and flow past older seals and gaskets and such made for that older style fluid
as many have said, when something has worked for a LONG time, why switch to new things,(or if it ain;'t broke why fix it?)
as a proven track record can save one many frustrations , HAHA!
I know it's a dead horse... But your post above contradicts itself. And the dealer was of no help. "Yes, we see it is to use 'this' and 'this'." "Ok, I'll take both." "I'm sorry, that isn't available any more." "Ok, then what do I need???"

Your own post also says "designed for something that doesn't exist any more" (paraphrase)

I think what the OP is asking, as well as everyone else of read on here asking this, is "the recommended product doesn't exist any longer. Now what do I do?"

Even a product called the same thing 40 years ago that DOES exist (like, "10w30"), isn't the same thing. So then what??? We still call it "Coca Cola", but a can of Coke from 1980 isn't the same thing as the can of Coke you can buy today. Same shape can, nearly the same logo. McDonald's iconic French fries aren't the same. Etc etc etc.

So, as we all want to know, oil is cheaper than pumps, so what oil so we use to give the pumps the best chance at long life?

Honestly, I'm leaning more towards the super premium tractor hydraulic fluid that places like NAPA sells that is the equivalent to the fluid Johnn Deere sells. I haven't done the looking to see if the Bobcat hydro fluid is the same spec as the Johnn Deere, but that's the next thing I'm doing before I get my machine down for maintenance. (I have some frame cracks, I need pins done, and I now see I have a cylinder cap leaking)
 

Coke-in-MN

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Jun 27, 2023
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Zinc is the additive used in older oils that was anti-wear additive that is now missing from NEW formula motor oils . It was used for flat tappet (lifters) in engines and in both automotive and motorcycle engines in high wear points of metal to metal contact .
Formulated racing oils still contain zinc but in lower amounts than older formulations . Even additives like STP (which use to be a high Zinc formula) have changed . You can check additives at local auto store for a high zinc content as some are still sold .
A anti-wear , anti-foam hydraulic oil should be able to be substituted for the 10/30 oil . I used ATF in older backhoe as hydraulic oil with no problems as I got 2 -55 gal drums from a large machine shop which used it in all their machines as lube.
many oils sold in 5 gallon buckets will have the specifications listed by equipment manufacturers that it meets the requirements for along with Military specification Numbers it meets - another way to compare what it can be used for or in .
 
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Seamonkeyboy

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Ok thanks. Ill go to another dealer. I already went to one yesterday. They looked at their chart on the desk and said "yes, 10W30 with the additive". I thought there may have been some technological advances since 1990 that would replace the 10W30.

there have been many advances in oils over the yrs but that doesn't change the fact the machine at hand was designed around a oil that was in use back then, and should be running the same fluid, it was designed for
changing fluids to more modern can lead to issues, , as more modern fluids can some things be thinner and flow past older seals and gaskets and such made for that older style fluid
as many have said, when something has worked for a LONG time, why switch to new things,(or if it ain;'t broke why fix it?)
as a proven track record can save one many frustrations , HAHA!
Ok thanks. I have decided on the 10W30. Now to find the correct additive.
 
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Seamonkeyboy

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I know it's a dead horse... But your post above contradicts itself. And the dealer was of no help. "Yes, we see it is to use 'this' and 'this'." "Ok, I'll take both." "I'm sorry, that isn't available any more." "Ok, then what do I need???"

Your own post also says "designed for something that doesn't exist any more" (paraphrase)

I think what the OP is asking, as well as everyone else of read on here asking this, is "the recommended product doesn't exist any longer. Now what do I do?"

Even a product called the same thing 40 years ago that DOES exist (like, "10w30"), isn't the same thing. So then what??? We still call it "Coca Cola", but a can of Coke from 1980 isn't the same thing as the can of Coke you can buy today. Same shape can, nearly the same logo. McDonald's iconic French fries aren't the same. Etc etc etc.

So, as we all want to know, oil is cheaper than pumps, so what oil so we use to give the pumps the best chance at long life?

Honestly, I'm leaning more towards the super premium tractor hydraulic fluid that places like NAPA sells that is the equivalent to the fluid Johnn Deere sells. I haven't done the looking to see if the Bobcat hydro fluid is the same spec as the Johnn Deere, but that's the next thing I'm doing before I get my machine down for maintenance. (I have some frame cracks, I need pins done, and I now see I have a cylinder cap leaking)
Thanks for the understanding. Sounds like you understood what I was asking. I appreciate the help from everyone, but "do what the manual recommends" does not help me at all. It is not as simple as reading the manual that I have in my possession complete with grease stains from my hard work and attention to detail as I followed directions in relation to foot pounds and everything else. If I sound angry I apologize to everyone. I am not lazy. Ive done the leg work. Case employees are afraid to give me any advice. I imagine they are scared of liability involving a 33 year old tractor lol dear Lord help us.
 
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Seamonkeyboy

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Joined
Apr 21, 2023
Messages
29
Zinc is the additive used in older oils that was anti-wear additive that is now missing from NEW formula motor oils . It was used for flat tappet (lifters) in engines and in both automotive and motorcycle engines in high wear points of metal to metal contact .
Formulated racing oils still contain zinc but in lower amounts than older formulations . Even additives like STP (which use to be a high Zinc formula) have changed . You can check additives at local auto store for a high zinc content as some are still sold .
A anti-wear , anti-foam hydraulic oil should be able to be substituted for the 10/30 oil . I used ATF in older backhoe as hydraulic oil with no problems as I got 2 -55 gal drums from a large machine shop which used it in all their machines as lube.
many oils sold in 5 gallon buckets will have the specifications listed by equipment manufacturers that it meets the requirements for along with Military specification Numbers it meets - another way to compare what it can be used for or in .
Thank you for the suggestion. I googled hydro oil with Zinc and what not to no avail. What is funny is that the Case dealership has Hy Tran buckets on the floor in the front office. On the front it says "zinc free". I walked out in slow motion with my head down looking back every few seconds to see if anyone cared lol.
 
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Seamonkeyboy

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Apr 21, 2023
Messages
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Thank you for the suggestion. I googled hydro oil with Zinc and what not to no avail. What is funny is that the Case dealership has Hy Tran buckets on the floor in the front office. On the front it says "zinc free". I walked out in slow motion with my head down looking back every few seconds to see if anyone cared lol.
I did find one called Hydra Z. High zinc hydraulic fluid. Its an ISO 46.
 

Dave1234

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Apr 21, 2023
Messages
71
On the topic of substituting modern oils, I have noted periodic reports of O rings disappearing, or drying up into little chunks. Recently I was looking for design details for O rings and ran across a Parker page showing O Ring composition vs fluid compatibility. I haven't had time to study it, but it sure looked likely that seals matching old seal specs might sometimes be incompatible with synthetic oils, hydraulic or otherwise. I think it needs followed up on.
 

mrbb

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Joined
Jul 19, 2016
Messages
526
I know it's a dead horse... But your post above contradicts itself. And the dealer was of no help. "Yes, we see it is to use 'this' and 'this'." "Ok, I'll take both." "I'm sorry, that isn't available any more." "Ok, then what do I need???"

Your own post also says "designed for something that doesn't exist any more" (paraphrase)

I think what the OP is asking, as well as everyone else of read on here asking this, is "the recommended product doesn't exist any longer. Now what do I do?"

Even a product called the same thing 40 years ago that DOES exist (like, "10w30"), isn't the same thing. So then what??? We still call it "Coca Cola", but a can of Coke from 1980 isn't the same thing as the can of Coke you can buy today. Same shape can, nearly the same logo. McDonald's iconic French fries aren't the same. Etc etc etc.

So, as we all want to know, oil is cheaper than pumps, so what oil so we use to give the pumps the best chance at long life?

Honestly, I'm leaning more towards the super premium tractor hydraulic fluid that places like NAPA sells that is the equivalent to the fluid Johnn Deere sells. I haven't done the looking to see if the Bobcat hydro fluid is the same spec as the Johnn Deere, but that's the next thing I'm doing before I get my machine down for maintenance. (I have some frame cracks, I need pins done, and I now see I have a cylinder cap leaking)
O get your point, but my simple pint was, asking the dealer what THEY use in machines they get in for repairs and service

I have to believe that they do service on these older machines and as such, they HAVE to be adding some sort of new fluid, if one dealer won't tell you, I'd keep calling other dealers, odds are one will not be scared to give you the info on what they use!

and if not, and I have not read the make up of this oil, but my older machines that CALL for 10w-30, are NW brand machines, and the dealers at New Holland, recommend this and they sell it, it can also be bought online,
and its what I been using problem free for a long time


when a product goes out of production, there are normally other brands still making it, or they come out with a fluid that works in it, (as in works in older and nwer machines covering all needs) and as such, again back to asking the dealer what they use, no one is scrapping machines because of old style fluids n stopped being made by Case , and case is not turning down work on repairing these older machines as far as I know any how!
 

mrbb

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Joined
Jul 19, 2016
Messages
526
On the topic of substituting modern oils, I have noted periodic reports of O rings disappearing, or drying up into little chunks. Recently I was looking for design details for O rings and ran across a Parker page showing O Ring composition vs fluid compatibility. I haven't had time to study it, but it sure looked likely that seals matching old seal specs might sometimes be incompatible with synthetic oils, hydraulic or otherwise. I think it needs followed up on.
I have also read some on this, and it can come down to from what I seen, on the oils and there make up, as older parts were not made to handle many newer chemicals, plus you have to add into the equation that OLD seals and gaskets and o rings are just that OLD< and as things age they tend to get weaker, which is not helping the issues or possible ones with more modern fluids and chemicals in them!
an easy example is older fuel lines and modem ethanol fuel()yes not OIL, I know, < but a fluid) , and how it dries the hoses out(talk to anyone that works on small engines, the frustration they find on this)

modern oils also have more cleaning agents , and have different flow abilities, which is why some folks find leaks after switching to more higher end fluids over the old dino stuff!
this is why I suggested trying to stick what what worked for so long, I am not sure when this fluid you USED to use went out of production, but I am sort of guessing, it didn;t happen before maybe the last fluid was changed, so someone put something in there that I gather was working,
if your not the original owner of machine, maybe if possible talk to previous owner,
if you are the owner, when was the fluid changed last?
if things recently went out of production, I start calling dealerships to see if any have any old stock, , never know, many older dealers have a LOT of old parts sitting around,as well as fluids and such!
if not dealer, what about the world wide web, be surprised what folks hoard and then sell later on, HAHA!
a lot of farmers are famous in my area for having stock piles of fluids sitting on barns, as they seem to buy in bulk and like to have lots on hand, JUST in case!
and as they sell equipment or retire it, they SOME times have younger family members that are into selling things on line(I know a few personally that do this to there dads stashes ) trying to get rid of things taking up space they need for other things!
so finding out of production oil, might still be possible if its recently out of production if your willing to look for it

best of luck, only trying to help, no bash here meant!
 

Gearclash

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Joined
Nov 2, 2014
Messages
155
Case's HTO was essentially a ZDDP additive. I gave up on the engine oil + HTO thing more than 5 years ago and started running a top shelf hydraulic oil. I use Mobil 424 or what ever it's called now and my brother is using Cenex premium hydraulic oil. Any hydraulic oil that is formulated to work in a system with a axial piston pumps will be suitable for a skid steer loader.
 
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Seamonkeyboy

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Apr 21, 2023
Messages
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Ok so I may have solved the 10W30 debacle of the past ten years. CAT makes a hydraulic fluid that is called Hydro Advanced 10. It is an emulsifier, it has .09ppm of Zinc, anti foaming etc. There website specifically talks about the taboos of shedding water AW hydraulic fluids. Shedding (De emulsifying is bad). Water can end up in the bottom of your pumps. Problem is its 179 bucks for a 5 gallon bucket. I need two of these. However, Shell Rotella T4 10W30 heavy duty diesel oil is high in zinc (1.225ppm) and phosphorus and anti foaming as in all engine oils. The Shell is 19 bucks a gallon. Any expertise out there would be greatly appreciated.
 
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Seamonkeyboy

Active member
Joined
Apr 21, 2023
Messages
29
I have also read some on this, and it can come down to from what I seen, on the oils and there make up, as older parts were not made to handle many newer chemicals, plus you have to add into the equation that OLD seals and gaskets and o rings are just that OLD< and as things age they tend to get weaker, which is not helping the issues or possible ones with more modern fluids and chemicals in them!
an easy example is older fuel lines and modem ethanol fuel()yes not OIL, I know, < but a fluid) , and how it dries the hoses out(talk to anyone that works on small engines, the frustration they find on this)

modern oils also have more cleaning agents , and have different flow abilities, which is why some folks find leaks after switching to more higher end fluids over the old dino stuff!
this is why I suggested trying to stick what what worked for so long, I am not sure when this fluid you USED to use went out of production, but I am sort of guessing, it didn;t happen before maybe the last fluid was changed, so someone put something in there that I gather was working,
if your not the original owner of machine, maybe if possible talk to previous owner,
if you are the owner, when was the fluid changed last?
if things recently went out of production, I start calling dealerships to see if any have any old stock, , never know, many older dealers have a LOT of old parts sitting around,as well as fluids and such!
if not dealer, what about the world wide web, be surprised what folks hoard and then sell later on, HAHA!
a lot of farmers are famous in my area for having stock piles of fluids sitting on barns, as they seem to buy in bulk and like to have lots on hand, JUST in case!
and as they sell equipment or retire it, they SOME times have younger family members that are into selling things on line(I know a few personally that do this to there dads stashes ) trying to get rid of things taking up space they need for other things!
so finding out of production oil, might still be possible if its recently out of production if your willing to look for it

best of luck, only trying to help, no bash here meant!
I really do appreciate your thought. You have some great points. Thanks so much.
 
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Seamonkeyboy

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Apr 21, 2023
Messages
29
Case's HTO was essentially a ZDDP additive. I gave up on the engine oil + HTO thing more than 5 years ago and started running a top shelf hydraulic oil. I use Mobil 424 or what ever it's called now and my brother is using Cenex premium hydraulic oil. Any hydraulic oil that is formulated to work in a system with a axial piston pumps will be suitable for a skid steer loader.
Mobile 424. Ill look into it. Thanks for the tip.
 

Wompus

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Aug 17, 2020
Messages
5
I run 10w30 in my 1835C as recommended...but it does look like they stopped making the HTO additive. Ugh, that sucks. I bought a couple extra quarts of additive the last time...but eventually I will end up in your predicament as well! It's hard to get the right answers. This place says that they will try and source it if you order it...might be worth a shot: https://www.messicks.com/part/B17508?vendorcode=CAS

Let us know how the search pans out.
 
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