white smoke coming

[jukjasarja]

[FONT=맑은 고딕]HI everyone I just trying to fix my s150(v2203) engine because of white smoke coming.
I see one of(1st picture of cylinder #4) cylinder has oil burned mark. When I have removed cylinder head, water on the gasket and block(2nd picture) . I see some rust in holes(3rd picture).[/FONT]
[FONT=맑은 고딕] There's oil on the #4 cylinder wall(4th picture) but There's no oil on other 3 cylinder walls.[/FONT]
[FONT=맑은 고딕]I guess water and oil goes in the #4 cylinder. That's why white smoke coming. Anyone knows how to fix this problem? Do I have to change the #4 cylinder or just change head gasket?
I would be very greatful for any ideas.
Thanks[/FONT]

#4 cylinder has oil burned mark

#2 water on the engine block

#3

#4

also rust on the gasket

 

[wright const]

How long do you plan on keeping the machine ? how much do you want to spend ? I would send it out and have new pistons and rings ,your already gone this far might as well go all the way.

 

[jukjasarja]

How long do you plan on keeping the machine ? how much do you want to spend ? I would send it out and have new pistons and rings ,your already gone this far might as well go all the way.

thanks for the reply wright const.
i have no plan to spend big money but i don't want to see the white smoke while i am working.
Do you think if i just change the head gasket and piston, the machine will be ok?
thanks again.

 

[Tazza]

thanks for the reply wright const.
i have no plan to spend big money but i don't want to see the white smoke while i am working.
Do you think if i just change the head gasket and piston, the machine will be ok?
thanks again.

The other pistons look to be the right shade of black. The rust you can see is simply from the cooling system. It looks like it could do with a good dose of cooling system clean. This will help remove the rust/gunk from the block and head.
The water you can see i suspect is from when you removed the head. There could have been small amounts of water in there that simply leaked out. If you were detonating water, the head would have pits in it. That's the only thing you didn't show, the head.
Its possible you have a head crack into the oil gallery causing oil to leak into number 4 cylinder and burning causing white smoke, but that is not as likely.
The most likely is you have a stuck oil ring. If you remove the piston you can see how much carbon has built up. If the rings are stuck in place, you know where the oil is getting past. Thankfully removeing the pistons are easy, you don't need to remove the front timing cover. Just remove the sump and remove the con-rod. Ensure it goes back in the correct way, i'm pretty sure the numbers stamped into the rod face the injector pump.
What do the valve stem seals look like? they also can allow oil to leak into the cylinder.

 

[jukjasarja]

The other pistons look to be the right shade of black. The rust you can see is simply from the cooling system. It looks like it could do with a good dose of cooling system clean. This will help remove the rust/gunk from the block and head.
The water you can see i suspect is from when you removed the head. There could have been small amounts of water in there that simply leaked out. If you were detonating water, the head would have pits in it. That's the only thing you didn't show, the head.
Its possible you have a head crack into the oil gallery causing oil to leak into number 4 cylinder and burning causing white smoke, but that is not as likely.
The most likely is you have a stuck oil ring. If you remove the piston you can see how much carbon has built up. If the rings are stuck in place, you know where the oil is getting past. Thankfully removeing the pistons are easy, you don't need to remove the front timing cover. Just remove the sump and remove the con-rod. Ensure it goes back in the correct way, i'm pretty sure the numbers stamped into the rod face the injector pump.
What do the valve stem seals look like? they also can allow oil to leak into the cylinder.

Thank you for the reply Tazza
I will remove the piston and check the rings.
I am learning a lot from this forum.
thanks again.

 

[kweber]

Thank you for the reply Tazza
I will remove the piston and check the rings.
I am learning a lot from this forum.
thanks again.

Were you losing any coolant? If you weren't then I would agree with Tazza but if you were loosing coolant I would suspect cracked head or defective head gasket. Just something about the white smoke makes me think coolant. Also, were you using straight water as a coolant or antifreeze? If straight water that could be why all the rust.

 

[jukjasarja]

Were you losing any coolant? If you weren't then I would agree with Tazza but if you were loosing coolant I would suspect cracked head or defective head gasket. Just something about the white smoke makes me think coolant. Also, were you using straight water as a coolant or antifreeze? If straight water that could be why all the rust.

I do not know it losing coolant or not. I'v got the engine(s150) from someone and trying to put it on my 763. The original owner said the engine blow white smoke.
If the engine has craked, where do you think i have to check?
thanks for the great advice.

 

[Tazza]

I do not know it losing coolant or not. I'v got the engine(s150) from someone and trying to put it on my 763. The original owner said the engine blow white smoke.
If the engine has craked, where do you think i have to check?
thanks for the great advice.

The heads crack if they get hot. Generally between valves. If it has been using coolant the head should show signs of water detonation. This will look like pitting on the underside of the cylinder head.

 

[jukjasarja]

The heads crack if they get hot. Generally between valves. If it has been using coolant the head should show signs of water detonation. This will look like pitting on the underside of the cylinder head.

The head looks ok, i don't see any crack or abnormal. I am waiting for the piston rings and head gasket.
I will let you guys know how it goes.
thanks everyone and Tazza

 

[mini]

The head looks ok, i don't see any crack or abnormal. I am waiting for the piston rings and head gasket.
I will let you guys know how it goes.
thanks everyone and Tazza

Hi
I am not a skid steer mechanic, but I do know my engines, I worked as an engine rebuild machinist for many years, small cracks are very hard to see if not imposible with the naked eye, you need to magniflux the head to see them, now that you have the head off, just bring it to any engine rebuilder shop, it's really fast and cheap to have them at least magnuflux the head to check for any cracks, before you re-assemble also small cracks can be easily repaired if there are any
Mini

 

[jukjasarja]

Hi
I am not a skid steer mechanic, but I do know my engines, I worked as an engine rebuild machinist for many years, small cracks are very hard to see if not imposible with the naked eye, you need to magniflux the head to see them, now that you have the head off, just bring it to any engine rebuilder shop, it's really fast and cheap to have them at least magnuflux the head to check for any cracks, before you re-assemble also small cracks can be easily repaired if there are any
Mini

thanks for the advice Mini.
I live in small town. The nearest engine shop is about one and half hour away to drive but i think your advice is worth to drive.
thanks again Mini.

 

[skidsteer.ca]

thanks for the advice Mini.
I live in small town. The nearest engine shop is about one and half hour away to drive but i think your advice is worth to drive.
thanks again Mini.

Most engine shops can also pressure test the head for leaks, again cheap, compared to the labour and parts of putting the head back on. It would have been good to see the engine run, but if it was using coolant, the combustion chambers should show on the bad cylinder.
Ken

 

[mini]

thanks for the advice Mini.
I live in small town. The nearest engine shop is about one and half hour away to drive but i think your advice is worth to drive.
thanks again Mini.

(as one person mentioned already) if you do decide to take the cylinder head in the shop, also get them to replace or at least check the valve stem seals, they are just so cheap to replace, when I was an apprentice my job was to strip engines and hot tank the parts I found most rubber valve stem seals were either totally missing, or if they were intact, they were hard as a rock, the valve stems can suck a lot of oil into the cylinders if they are missing or have gone hard.
it's a tough call becuase you have not seen the actual smoke yourself, (burning oil? or water?) burning oil lingers in the air, burning water is steam which disapates much faster,

 

[jukjasarja]

(as one person mentioned already) if you do decide to take the cylinder head in the shop, also get them to replace or at least check the valve stem seals, they are just so cheap to replace, when I was an apprentice my job was to strip engines and hot tank the parts I found most rubber valve stem seals were either totally missing, or if they were intact, they were hard as a rock, the valve stems can suck a lot of oil into the cylinders if they are missing or have gone hard.
it's a tough call becuase you have not seen the actual smoke yourself, (burning oil? or water?) burning oil lingers in the air, burning water is steam which disapates much faster,

I took the head to nearest engine shop today and the guy said it looks ok but he didn't use any equipment to check the head.
He said take the piston out and bring it to him.
I guess i have to look for other engine shop.
Thank you for the advice Mini. I have to fix everything i can before put the head back.
I never knew there's valve stem seals. If i find a good engine shiop , i will ask them to chane rubber.

 

[Tazza]

I took the head to nearest engine shop today and the guy said it looks ok but he didn't use any equipment to check the head.
He said take the piston out and bring it to him.
I guess i have to look for other engine shop.
Thank you for the advice Mini. I have to fix everything i can before put the head back.
I never knew there's valve stem seals. If i find a good engine shiop , i will ask them to chane rubber.

Have a look where the vales are on the head. See the springs and the valve stems? look at the base, there will be a black rubber seal. This prevents oil traveling down the stem and into the combustion chamber.

A few pictures stolen off the net.

 

[jukjasarja]

Have a look where the vales are on the head. See the springs and the valve stems? look at the base, there will be a black rubber seal. This prevents oil traveling down the stem and into the combustion chamber.


A few pictures stolen off the net.

Thank you Tazza !

 

[Miker67]

Thank you Tazza !

How is your project working out tazza? Many good posts on this already, but I thought I would throw a couple other things out there. Two primary reasons for white smoke, 1, water in the cylinder, and 2, unburnt fuel. As you yourself have already considered, water in the cylinder could be from a blown head gasket or cracked head/block. A compression test before teardown would have helped troubleshoot things a bit easier, but since it is already past that point there are only a few options. One, as others have stated, a magnaflux and stem seals is money very well spent. Then, you can either reasemble with with a new head gasket and roll the dice, or you could just rip it the rest of the way down and rebuild it. Now, should you decide to just replace the head gasket and see what happens and the problem continues, with the motor running crack the injector lines one at a time. If the motor doesn't run worse when you loosen the line, then that cylinder has a problem. If when you loosen a line and it runs worse, you know that cylinder is at least partially working. Then, switch the injector from the bad cylinder with one of the good ones and see if the problem moves with the injector. Getting back to white smoke, if it is purely white, its either water or fuel. If it were a ring issue, It should have more of a bluish tint to it. Looking at the burn pattern on the top of the cylinders in your photo, I would almost wonder if it isn't something simple like an injector issue.

 

[Tazza]

How is your project working out tazza? Many good posts on this already, but I thought I would throw a couple other things out there. Two primary reasons for white smoke, 1, water in the cylinder, and 2, unburnt fuel. As you yourself have already considered, water in the cylinder could be from a blown head gasket or cracked head/block. A compression test before teardown would have helped troubleshoot things a bit easier, but since it is already past that point there are only a few options. One, as others have stated, a magnaflux and stem seals is money very well spent. Then, you can either reasemble with with a new head gasket and roll the dice, or you could just rip it the rest of the way down and rebuild it. Now, should you decide to just replace the head gasket and see what happens and the problem continues, with the motor running crack the injector lines one at a time. If the motor doesn't run worse when you loosen the line, then that cylinder has a problem. If when you loosen a line and it runs worse, you know that cylinder is at least partially working. Then, switch the injector from the bad cylinder with one of the good ones and see if the problem moves with the injector. Getting back to white smoke, if it is purely white, its either water or fuel. If it were a ring issue, It should have more of a bluish tint to it. Looking at the burn pattern on the top of the cylinders in your photo, I would almost wonder if it isn't something simple like an injector issue.

Miker67 - what one? i have far too many on the go at the moment......
You make good points, about the causes of white smoke. I always thought when the engine was running, even if you had a bad injector it would burn black? White on startup as the fuel isn't spraying and being burnt. But when its hot enough i figured it would still start ignition, hense the black smoke?
He has sent me pictures of the piston removed, the oil control ring looked very carboned up, but all the rings freely moved around the piston, so i'm not sure why it would look as bad as it does.
Good idea about turning off injectors and seeing if it changes how its running, messy but i have done this before too.

 

[Miker67]

Miker67 - what one? i have far too many on the go at the moment......
You make good points, about the causes of white smoke. I always thought when the engine was running, even if you had a bad injector it would burn black? White on startup as the fuel isn't spraying and being burnt. But when its hot enough i figured it would still start ignition, hense the black smoke?
He has sent me pictures of the piston removed, the oil control ring looked very carboned up, but all the rings freely moved around the piston, so i'm not sure why it would look as bad as it does.
Good idea about turning off injectors and seeing if it changes how its running, messy but i have done this before too.

When I said Tazza, I was actually referring to the OP. I was confused, shouldn't be posting on pain killers, lol. Now, you are correct, black smoke like you see from tuned pulling trucks and people that step on it way too hard is unburnt fuel. The point to note is that it is at least partially combusted; however, instances where a given cylinder has zero combustion and the motor still runs will result in gobs of pure white smoke. This most often this is due to extreme low compression, but can also be caused by injector pumps gone wild(very rare though).