Thomas Backhoe

[Wm McNett]

Yup. Very helpful.
I'm working from the hy-power site because they have pictures.
So I guess the valve I showed is the right valve... maybe? The one I need to replace doesn't have any relief valves in it... in fact, it doesn't even have a position for a relieve valve in the valve casting.
It looks like the spool end is right... and the spring will return the spool to center... and there is no detent. The specification sheets that I got from Parker for the KA10/18 valve contains dimensions that agree with my valves, so I'm getting real close to calling this the right valve.
Only one more thing to do before ordering the valve... ask the guy at Parker to verify that it is the right valve. Maybe even order it from him.

Ed I dont know for sure, been wrong before.
JIC could very well be a SAE O-ring

 

[Jyuma]

Ed I dont know for sure, been wrong before.
JIC could very well be a SAE O-ring

The guy at Parker stopped responding to my emails. Oh well... I got great information from the guy so many times I can't complain. I'm sure he has more important things to do.
I registered with White House so I could get pricing information and in the process I gathered one more piece of information about the valve that points to it's being the right one. The parts list I got from Thomas 10 years ago shows “Unit 10“ in the valve's description. The White House site lists the valve as “UNIT 10 DA SPOOL 1064374-001” which I take to mean it's a Unit 10 (whatever that is) with a Double Acting (DA) spool. Sounds like my valve.
I'm going to take one-last-shot with the old valve. I reassembled the six valves with all new O-rings and I'm ready to install the assembly in the backhoe (if it ever stops raining).
Here's a photo of the backhoe control from hell ready to be installed...

 

[Tazza]

The guy at Parker stopped responding to my emails. Oh well... I got great information from the guy so many times I can't complain. I'm sure he has more important things to do.
I registered with White House so I could get pricing information and in the process I gathered one more piece of information about the valve that points to it's being the right one. The parts list I got from Thomas 10 years ago shows “Unit 10“ in the valve's description. The White House site lists the valve as “UNIT 10 DA SPOOL 1064374-001” which I take to mean it's a Unit 10 (whatever that is) with a Double Acting (DA) spool. Sounds like my valve.
I'm going to take one-last-shot with the old valve. I reassembled the six valves with all new O-rings and I'm ready to install the assembly in the backhoe (if it ever stops raining).
Here's a photo of the backhoe control from hell ready to be installed...

With the crack, i assume it will still leak.... Did you give it a go at welding it up at all?

 

[Jyuma]

With the crack, i assume it will still leak.... Did you give it a go at welding it up at all?

No I didn't weld the crack, but I can't explain why the leak should be coming from the #5 valve when the crack is in the #6 valve. Like I explained b4... I even used the outriggers to tilt the entire backhoe so the #6 valve was the lowest point but the leak still came from #5.
What's one more time assembling the valve to the backhoe compared to all the time I've wasted already?

Worst case is the leak is still there and I am forced to order the valve from White House.
bTw... I heard from Stan at Parker again (the guy really is a great help) and he say's I can't use a KA18 if my valve is a Unit 10... I need to replace the entire valve, not just a single segment. He also said that a V20 would make a great replacement. Funny, but the segment I already bought (and returned) was a V20 but Stan is saying to replace the entire valve assembly... all 6 valves. Groan.

 

[fjmg]

No I didn't weld the crack, but I can't explain why the leak should be coming from the #5 valve when the crack is in the #6 valve. Like I explained b4... I even used the outriggers to tilt the entire backhoe so the #6 valve was the lowest point but the leak still came from #5.
What's one more time assembling the valve to the backhoe compared to all the time I've wasted already?
Worst case is the leak is still there and I am forced to order the valve from White House.
bTw... I heard from Stan at Parker again (the guy really is a great help) and he say's I can't use a KA18 if my valve is a Unit 10... I need to replace the entire valve, not just a single segment. He also said that a V20 would make a great replacement. Funny, but the segment I already bought (and returned) was a V20 but Stan is saying to replace the entire valve assembly... all 6 valves. Groan.

Ooooooohhhhh I am jealous! I have been looking for a bh108 to complement my 233HD on my acreage for some time now. All the new HD ones are 10-15k and require the new q-tach mount whereas my unit is a 1994 model with the older mount. The Thomas unit sure appears stout! best of luck in your rebuild but the way you are proceeding you will end up with a very nice unit.

 

[Jyuma]

Ooooooohhhhh I am jealous! I have been looking for a bh108 to complement my 233HD on my acreage for some time now. All the new HD ones are 10-15k and require the new q-tach mount whereas my unit is a 1994 model with the older mount. The Thomas unit sure appears stout! best of luck in your rebuild but the way you are proceeding you will end up with a very nice unit.

Oh well... the valve still leaks... not really a big surprise.
Now that I have a better view of things (paint all gone) I can see that both valve 5 and 6 are leaking. 5 is leaking from the load check and 6 is leaking from both the load check and the crack.
I tried to order the valve from White House in the UK but their web store is really poorly done and I can't get past the payment screen. It errors out on their end.
So I thought I'd be clever and order the valve from Hy-Power (also UK) but after I filled out the registration form (required to order from them) I got a message that it will take two weeks to verify the registration. What? Two weeks just to verify that I'm registered? Perhaps someone should inform these two companies (that look like one company to me) that this is the 21st century and people are accustomed to overnight delivery... not two week waits just to find out if your application for registration was accepted. Good grief!
I never should have tried to rebuild this antique valve... I should have just bought a modern valve with obtainable replacement parts. Live and learn.

 

[Wm McNett]

Oh well... the valve still leaks... not really a big surprise.
Now that I have a better view of things (paint all gone) I can see that both valve 5 and 6 are leaking. 5 is leaking from the load check and 6 is leaking from both the load check and the crack.
I tried to order the valve from White House in the UK but their web store is really poorly done and I can't get past the payment screen. It errors out on their end.
So I thought I'd be clever and order the valve from Hy-Power (also UK) but after I filled out the registration form (required to order from them) I got a message that it will take two weeks to verify the registration. What? Two weeks just to verify that I'm registered? Perhaps someone should inform these two companies (that look like one company to me) that this is the 21st century and people are accustomed to overnight delivery... not two week waits just to find out if your application for registration was accepted. Good grief!
I never should have tried to rebuild this antique valve... I should have just bought a modern valve with obtainable replacement parts. Live and learn.

If you lived close by, I'd offer to take that section to work and tig weld that crack for you.
Parker # 346-9149-112 Load drop check valve kit (includes rubber, spring, poppet and cap)
Parker # 346-9149-016 Load drop seal kit

 

[Jyuma]

If you lived close by, I'd offer to take that section to work and tig weld that crack for you.
Parker # 346-9149-112 Load drop check valve kit (includes rubber, spring, poppet and cap)
Parker # 346-9149-016 Load drop seal kit

That is very nice of you but I'm not at all certain at this point that welding would do the trick. I can't explain why the “Load Check” on both valves 5 and 6 are leaking... every O-ring and seal has been replaced in all the valves and none of the other valves shows any signs of leaking. It may be that #5 and #6 have small cracks that I'm just not seeing. That is why I believe my only course of action going forward is to replace both valves. It would cost about $300 USD to replace both valves... if I could only get the order system at White House to take my cc.

One additional possibility is to do nothing and just use the valve as is. The leak has been reduced to a minimum... not much more than a drip or two per second. For the amount of times I use the backhoe it might be a better investment to add a quart of 10W30 to the hydro reservoir for every hour I operate the backhoe. You may think I'm kidding... but I'm not.

 

[SkidRoe]

And for my next dumb question... What is a #8 SAE “O“ ring port?
Here is a picture of the fittings that are connected to the work ports on my existing valve. There are 12 of them... 2 for each valve segment. The straight thread (shown on the left of the fitting in the photo below) threads into the valve body. The flared thread on the right connects to the various hydraulic hoses.
The straight thread outside diameter is .868 (22.07 mm). The flared side outside diameter is .740 (18.8 mm).
You will notice that there is an “O” ring on the left side placed in a groove between the threads and the hex. Based on the dimensions I've reported... is this fitting a #8 “O” ring fitting? If it isn't a #8 “O” ring fitting then what is it?


There are also two fittings (one shown below) that connect the PTO to the backhoe that are of the same basic design as the others, right down to the “O“ ring. The straight thread on the left is larger than the other 12 fittings, with an outside diameter of 1.055 (26.78 mm) but the flare is the same. Any idea what SAE # these fittings might be?


Yes... I am seriously considering buying that Prince valve but I first need to be sure that my hose connections will match up correctly. If I can screw my existing fittings (first photo above) into the Prince valve then I am reasonably sure that I can make everything else work.
Thanks
Ed

A #8 O-ring port is meant to be a port connection for a 1/2" tube or hose. The #8 is based on a standard fluid connector series based on 1/16" increments i.e. 8/16" = 1/2". (pargraph break) The ports are defined by the SAE and governed by the SAE standard SAE J1926 (I think, going by memory here). The fittings that match these ports are governed by SAE J514. (Paragraph break). The thread that corresponds to #8 is 3/4"-16. Based on the thead O.D. that you have reported, the ports on your valve are #10 ORB (O-Ring Boss), which have a thread size of 7/8"-14. The flare side is #8 JIC (37 degree flare). The larger ports that your aux hoses connect to are #12 ORB (1-1/16"-12 thread) (Paragraph Break). Based on this, you should have no trouble adapting a new valve block into your machine. ORB to JIC and NPT to JIC fittings are extremely common and come in a huge variety of jump sizes.

 

[SkidRoe]

A #8 O-ring port is meant to be a port connection for a 1/2" tube or hose. The #8 is based on a standard fluid connector series based on 1/16" increments i.e. 8/16" = 1/2". (pargraph break) The ports are defined by the SAE and governed by the SAE standard SAE J1926 (I think, going by memory here). The fittings that match these ports are governed by SAE J514. (Paragraph break). The thread that corresponds to #8 is 3/4"-16. Based on the thead O.D. that you have reported, the ports on your valve are #10 ORB (O-Ring Boss), which have a thread size of 7/8"-14. The flare side is #8 JIC (37 degree flare). The larger ports that your aux hoses connect to are #12 ORB (1-1/16"-12 thread) (Paragraph Break). Based on this, you should have no trouble adapting a new valve block into your machine. ORB to JIC and NPT to JIC fittings are extremely common and come in a huge variety of jump sizes.

If my last post seems out of place, please ignore it. I think I accidentally responded to a post from July 13th thinking that it was the latest post. Frigging computer is jerking me around again (then again, it could be the operator...).

 

[Jyuma]

If my last post seems out of place, please ignore it. I think I accidentally responded to a post from July 13th thinking that it was the latest post. Frigging computer is jerking me around again (then again, it could be the operator...).

No problem SR... it was a good post anyway.

My ftp server has been down for the past few days (that's why there's been no pictures)... my ISP did me a big favor and changed my IP address so DNS couldn't find my server. All fixed now, so the pictures are back.
In the mean time I finally managed to get White House to take my money, so a brand new “Unit 10” Kontak valve is on it's way (from the UK) along with a new Load Check and poppet. Total cost... $178.41 USD including shipping.
I decided to try replacing just the #6 valve... the #5 was only leaking at the “Load Check“, so I ordered a new “Load Check“ for #5. If it still leaks I'll live with it. The leak is very minor and not cause for any real concern. The new valve is the more modern design, which means the Spool O-ring is external and held in place by a plate. I ordered an extra plate to be used on the #5 valve to keep the linkage mounting on an even keel. You'll see it in pictures once I get the new valve.
I'm in wait mode again.

 

[Tazza]

No problem SR... it was a good post anyway.
My ftp server has been down for the past few days (that's why there's been no pictures)... my ISP did me a big favor and changed my IP address so DNS couldn't find my server. All fixed now, so the pictures are back.
In the mean time I finally managed to get White House to take my money, so a brand new “Unit 10” Kontak valve is on it's way (from the UK) along with a new Load Check and poppet. Total cost... $178.41 USD including shipping.
I decided to try replacing just the #6 valve... the #5 was only leaking at the “Load Check“, so I ordered a new “Load Check“ for #5. If it still leaks I'll live with it. The leak is very minor and not cause for any real concern. The new valve is the more modern design, which means the Spool O-ring is external and held in place by a plate. I ordered an extra plate to be used on the #5 valve to keep the linkage mounting on an even keel. You'll see it in pictures once I get the new valve.
I'm in wait mode again.

I really hope this wait is worth it. I want to hear that its all back together and leak free! and how frustrating it is waiting and finding another issue.....

 

[skidsteer.ca]

I really hope this wait is worth it. I want to hear that its all back together and leak free! and how frustrating it is waiting and finding another issue.....

Me too, your patience level far exceeds mine.
Mind you I did spend 20 hours rebuilding a free Yamaha Moto 4 for the kids, then push starting it for 2 weeks until the questionable hone job finally seated the new piston and rings and it had enough compression to start on its own. So I must be crazy/stuborn too!

 

[Jyuma]

Me too, your patience level far exceeds mine.
Mind you I did spend 20 hours rebuilding a free Yamaha Moto 4 for the kids, then push starting it for 2 weeks until the questionable hone job finally seated the new piston and rings and it had enough compression to start on its own. So I must be crazy/stuborn too!

I have 4 children... patience is a prerequisite.

bTw... FedEx tracking says the valve will be delivered this morning by 10:30 am. This I gotta see.

 

[SkidRoe]

I have 4 children... patience is a prerequisite.
bTw... FedEx tracking says the valve will be delivered this morning by 10:30 am. This I gotta see.

Well, Ed, if this doesn't work, there is always plan B (ROFL):
http://www.skidsteerforum.com/DesktopDefault.aspx?tabid=54&frmView=ShowPost&PostID=45941
He doesn't sound too picky either!!! LOL

 

[Jyuma]

Well, Ed, if this doesn't work, there is always plan B (ROFL):
http://www.skidsteerforum.com/DesktopDefault.aspx?tabid=54&frmView=ShowPost&PostID=45941
He doesn't sound too picky either!!! LOL

“Condition is not important to me as long as the booms are not severely bent.”
ROFL! Well... there's not too picky and then there's... “if you squint it looks like a backhoe.”
The FedEx package was not delivered today and just to add insult to injury the FedEx tracking site no longer even lists a projected delivery date. As near as I can tell from the tracking site, the package is still in GB.

 

[Jyuma]

“Condition is not important to me as long as the booms are not severely bent.”
ROFL! Well... there's not too picky and then there's... “if you squint it looks like a backhoe.”
The FedEx package was not delivered today and just to add insult to injury the FedEx tracking site no longer even lists a projected delivery date. As near as I can tell from the tracking site, the package is still in GB.

I received the package from White House and the new valve aligns with the old valves perfectly. The only problem is the issue I knew I would have with the new spool seal being held in by an external plate. In anticipation of that difference between the valves I had ordered an extra plate that I could attach to the top of the number 5 valve just to make the mounting even for the control linkage mounting block assembly.
One additional problem I had not anticipated is the hole on the end of the new spool used for attaching the linkage is 3/16 but the same hole is 1/4 on the old valve. There is a small cylinder that slides over the spool end and is held in place by a roll pin. I couldn't use the old roll pin or even the hole in the cylinder because it's 1/4”. The fix was pretty simple... I rotated the cylinder on the spool 90 degrees and drilled a new 3/16” through hole to accept a 3/16” roll pin. Worked great.
One final modification had to do with the way the control linkage mounting block attach's to the top of the valves. The mounting block uses the same holes as the spool seal retainer plate but it only uses 3 of the 4 holes. On the new valve the plate is held in place with two 1/4 20 Phillips head screws. These screws need to be discarded because the control linkage mounting block screws are used instead. The control linkage mounting block rests on top of the retainer plates and the mounting screws pass through the holes in the retainer plate and thread into the valve top. Inasmuch as there are only 3 screws used to hold down the control linkage mounting block, that leaves one screw missing from the retainer plate. I solved that problem by counter-sinking one hole on the plate that does not receive a mounting screw from the control block and then inserting a 1/4 20 flat head screw. That gave me a flat surface for the mounting block to rest on. One special note: the 1/4 20 flat-head screw must be undercut or it will bottom on the top of the valve before it tightens against the counter sink.
Tomorrow I'll put the valve back in the machine and see if it leaks. If it still leaks I'll go buy a six pack and drown my sorrows. If it doesn't leak I'll buy two six packs.

 

[Jyuma]

I received the package from White House and the new valve aligns with the old valves perfectly. The only problem is the issue I knew I would have with the new spool seal being held in by an external plate. In anticipation of that difference between the valves I had ordered an extra plate that I could attach to the top of the number 5 valve just to make the mounting even for the control linkage mounting block assembly.
One additional problem I had not anticipated is the hole on the end of the new spool used for attaching the linkage is 3/16 but the same hole is 1/4 on the old valve. There is a small cylinder that slides over the spool end and is held in place by a roll pin. I couldn't use the old roll pin or even the hole in the cylinder because it's 1/4”. The fix was pretty simple... I rotated the cylinder on the spool 90 degrees and drilled a new 3/16” through hole to accept a 3/16” roll pin. Worked great.
One final modification had to do with the way the control linkage mounting block attach's to the top of the valves. The mounting block uses the same holes as the spool seal retainer plate but it only uses 3 of the 4 holes. On the new valve the plate is held in place with two 1/4 20 Phillips head screws. These screws need to be discarded because the control linkage mounting block screws are used instead. The control linkage mounting block rests on top of the retainer plates and the mounting screws pass through the holes in the retainer plate and thread into the valve top. Inasmuch as there are only 3 screws used to hold down the control linkage mounting block, that leaves one screw missing from the retainer plate. I solved that problem by counter-sinking one hole on the plate that does not receive a mounting screw from the control block and then inserting a 1/4 20 flat head screw. That gave me a flat surface for the mounting block to rest on. One special note: the 1/4 20 flat-head screw must be undercut or it will bottom on the top of the valve before it tightens against the counter sink.
Tomorrow I'll put the valve back in the machine and see if it leaks. If it still leaks I'll go buy a six pack and drown my sorrows. If it doesn't leak I'll buy two six packs.

Well... stopped again!

The new valve requires #8 ORB to JIC fittings for the work ports and the old valve used #10 ORB to JIC.
I'm now trying to track down a pair of “Male #8 ORB to female #10 ORB” adapters. So far no luck.
I'm in wait mode again.

 

[SkidRoe]

Well... stopped again!
The new valve requires #8 ORB to JIC fittings for the work ports and the old valve used #10 ORB to JIC.
I'm now trying to track down a pair of “Male #8 ORB to female #10 ORB” adapters. So far no luck.
I'm in wait mode again.

Hi Ed, Look for a pair of -8 JIC to -8 ORB adapters. Common as dirt and a much cleaner solution. Cheers, SR

 

[Jyuma]

Hi Ed, Look for a pair of -8 JIC to -8 ORB adapters. Common as dirt and a much cleaner solution. Cheers, SR

I wish it were that easy. The #6 valve has a “service port restrictor“ connected to both working ports and they are male -10 ORB on one end and female -10 ORB on the other. I need an adapter to go from the new valves female work port size of -8 ORB to the existing male “service port restrictor -10 ORB. Then everything else will connect fine.
Here is a photo of the “service port restrictor” with the JIC fitting attached.

In the photo above you can see the JIC fitting which connects to the right side of the “Service Port Restrictor“ via a -10 ORB. The JIC side is where the hydraulic line connects. The left side of the “Service Port Restrictor“ connects directly to the valve. The old valve was -10 ORB and the new valve is -8 ORB. I need an adapter to go from male -8 ORB to female -10 ORB.