Thomas Backhoe

[Tazza]

I pulled the valve out again and removed the #5 spool. Below are two close-up views of what was a brand new lower “O” ring. The first photo shows damage to approx half the circumference of the “O” ring.
Link to the full resolution image.


This next photo is a super close-up of a portion of the damaged area.
Link to full resolution image.

I assume the “O” ring was damaged when I inserted the spool... those machined grooves in the spool are like razors... but I don't know what else I can do when inserting the spool other than flooding it with oil and going slow (with a turning action).
Any ideas how to prevent damage to the “O” ring while inserting the spool?

You're doing it right, there really is no other way.... Hopefully it will be fine when you re-install it.
I'm also not sure if a twisting action is helping or causing more problems. Being that sharp, it may be causing it to slice the quad ring more than pushing it straight in.
I wonder if it needs to be so sharp, removing the edge with sand paper may not harm anything and prevent it cutting the seals up again..... I can't see it causing any harm, it may be designed this way, but it may also be because they were lazy when machining them, save a few seconds per spool saves them a few extra bucks.

 

[Jyuma]

You're doing it right, there really is no other way.... Hopefully it will be fine when you re-install it.
I'm also not sure if a twisting action is helping or causing more problems. Being that sharp, it may be causing it to slice the quad ring more than pushing it straight in.
I wonder if it needs to be so sharp, removing the edge with sand paper may not harm anything and prevent it cutting the seals up again..... I can't see it causing any harm, it may be designed this way, but it may also be because they were lazy when machining them, save a few seconds per spool saves them a few extra bucks.

Based on the shape of the cuts in the damaged “O” ring I assume the damage was caused by the sharp edges of the small bore holes drilled in the leading and trailing edge of the hollows between the races with the machined grooves. (See previous photos)
I attempted to deburr those edges as best I could and I reinstalled the spool. I won't really know if it worked until I mount the valve and apply fluid pressure.

The only other way I can think of to insert the spools without running those sharp edged grooves and bore holes against the inner sealing surface of the “O” rings is to remove the spring assembly from the bottom of the spool and insert the spool (from either the top or the bottom) without the “O” rings installed in the valve body. Then push the spool down until the top of the spool passes just inside the valve body... insert the top “O” ring... push the spool up just past the point where the bottom of the spool is inside the valve body enough to expose the “O” ring groove... insert the lower “O” ring, and push the pool down and through the lower “O“ ring... and then reattach the spring assembly. This method would definitely get the lower “O” ring in place without ever having to run the sharp edged portions of the spool past the lower “O” ring. I'm not certain that it wouldn't expose the upper “O” ring to one of the groves (when the spool is pushed up far enough to clear the lower “O” ring groove) but it would at least limit the number of sharp points the “O” ring would be exposed to during installation.
I'll let you know how it turns out later today but I think there is a better than even chance that the “O” ring suffered damage when I inserted the spool and will likely leak again. Oh well... ain't it always the case? Five of the six spools inserted without issue... one fights you to the death.

 

[Jyuma]

Based on the shape of the cuts in the damaged “O” ring I assume the damage was caused by the sharp edges of the small bore holes drilled in the leading and trailing edge of the hollows between the races with the machined grooves. (See previous photos)
I attempted to deburr those edges as best I could and I reinstalled the spool. I won't really know if it worked until I mount the valve and apply fluid pressure.
The only other way I can think of to insert the spools without running those sharp edged grooves and bore holes against the inner sealing surface of the “O” rings is to remove the spring assembly from the bottom of the spool and insert the spool (from either the top or the bottom) without the “O” rings installed in the valve body. Then push the spool down until the top of the spool passes just inside the valve body... insert the top “O” ring... push the spool up just past the point where the bottom of the spool is inside the valve body enough to expose the “O” ring groove... insert the lower “O” ring, and push the pool down and through the lower “O“ ring... and then reattach the spring assembly. This method would definitely get the lower “O” ring in place without ever having to run the sharp edged portions of the spool past the lower “O” ring. I'm not certain that it wouldn't expose the upper “O” ring to one of the groves (when the spool is pushed up far enough to clear the lower “O” ring groove) but it would at least limit the number of sharp points the “O” ring would be exposed to during installation.
I'll let you know how it turns out later today but I think there is a better than even chance that the “O” ring suffered damage when I inserted the spool and will likely leak again. Oh well... ain't it always the case? Five of the six spools inserted without issue... one fights you to the death.

Well... the leak is even worse this time... I didn't take it apart yet but I suspect that the “O” ring is damaged again.
This time I also noticed a small leak coming from something called a “Load Check“ on the #6 valve... the Load Check sits between the two working ports of the valve. I have no idea how to get the “Load Check (I assume valve)“ out. I'll need to look at it more closely once I get over my growing desire to take a hammer to the whole darn valve assembly.

 

[Tazza]

Well... the leak is even worse this time... I didn't take it apart yet but I suspect that the “O” ring is damaged again.
This time I also noticed a small leak coming from something called a “Load Check“ on the #6 valve... the Load Check sits between the two working ports of the valve. I have no idea how to get the “Load Check (I assume valve)“ out. I'll need to look at it more closely once I get over my growing desire to take a hammer to the whole darn valve assembly.

That sure is some bad luck you're having there..... If you can remove the spring, hopefully that will help doing it the other way you describe *crosses fingers*.
The load checks should just screw in, but i can't see just where they are on this valve. On other valves i have seen, there are two.... one near each outlet port. I only see one plug between the two which i guess must be it.

 

[Jyuma]

That sure is some bad luck you're having there..... If you can remove the spring, hopefully that will help doing it the other way you describe *crosses fingers*.
The load checks should just screw in, but i can't see just where they are on this valve. On other valves i have seen, there are two.... one near each outlet port. I only see one plug between the two which i guess must be it.

Here is an exploded view of the exact valve used in my machine. The “Load Check” is #17 in the picture and there is one for each valve. I have no clue how to get that load check valve out. There is a button like top on it... almost like you should pull it out... but I see nothing that looks like it would take a wrench. Anybody know how to remove the “Load Check“? Is it possible that I need to separate the valves from each other and the Load Check gets removed from the inside?
Link to high resolution image.

 

[Tazza]

Here is an exploded view of the exact valve used in my machine. The “Load Check” is #17 in the picture and there is one for each valve. I have no clue how to get that load check valve out. There is a button like top on it... almost like you should pull it out... but I see nothing that looks like it would take a wrench. Anybody know how to remove the “Load Check“? Is it possible that I need to separate the valves from each other and the Load Check gets removed from the inside?
Link to high resolution image.

Theer has to be something to hold it in place.... I'm just not sure what.
Its possible the bolt that holds the segments in also holds the load check in place by catching a side of the load check. Which if you removed just the one through bolt you may be able to get out without seperating the entire control block.
Does it look like it could hold it in place at all? or is it too far away from the hole?

 

[Tazza]

Theer has to be something to hold it in place.... I'm just not sure what.
Its possible the bolt that holds the segments in also holds the load check in place by catching a side of the load check. Which if you removed just the one through bolt you may be able to get out without seperating the entire control block.
Does it look like it could hold it in place at all? or is it too far away from the hole?

I just looked at the picture again. The bolt does hold it in place, look at the hole in item: 61 see the hole in it?

 

[Jyuma]

I just looked at the picture again. The bolt does hold it in place, look at the hole in item: 61 see the hole in it?

Holy crap! How on earth did I miss that?
I'll go take the valve assembly out of the backhoe and try this again, but I'll not remove the spools from any valve that isn't leaking. Why ask for trouble?

I'll post some pictures later today.

 

[Jyuma]

Holy crap! How on earth did I miss that?
I'll go take the valve assembly out of the backhoe and try this again, but I'll not remove the spools from any valve that isn't leaking. Why ask for trouble?
I'll post some pictures later today.

Yup... it came right out after I pulled the long shaft out about 2 1/2”. Looking right to left, there is a spring, an “O” ring and what looks like a nylon washer. The button on the left (the part that sticks out from the valve body between the working ports) is used to pull the assembly out of the valve body. I'm sure there is a zillion dollar tool specially designed for the removal... but I used a claw hammer. Worked great.

The “O” ring is hard and a bit flattened on the inner and outer surfaces but otherwise undamaged. A new one should do the trick. I have no idea how that nylon (plastic?) washer was originally installed but there does not appear to be a way to remove it or install a new one. There is not a replacement in the “O“ ring kit so I assume it does not get replaced.

 

[Jyuma]

Yup... it came right out after I pulled the long shaft out about 2 1/2”. Looking right to left, there is a spring, an “O” ring and what looks like a nylon washer. The button on the left (the part that sticks out from the valve body between the working ports) is used to pull the assembly out of the valve body. I'm sure there is a zillion dollar tool specially designed for the removal... but I used a claw hammer. Worked great.

The “O” ring is hard and a bit flattened on the inner and outer surfaces but otherwise undamaged. A new one should do the trick. I have no idea how that nylon (plastic?) washer was originally installed but there does not appear to be a way to remove it or install a new one. There is not a replacement in the “O“ ring kit so I assume it does not get replaced.

I solved the problem of damaging the lower “O“ ring during the installation of the spool. It was so simply I don't know why I didn't think of it sooner.
Put the new lower “O” ring onto the spool instead of in the groove of the valve body and position it all the way down the spool past the last race with the machined grooves. Then insert the spool into the valve body from the bottom as usual and push it in as far as the last oil passage before the end of the spool. (see photo below). Now using the smaller spool diameter of the oil passage for working room, maneuver the “O“ ring into it's grove and then push the spool the rest of the way into the valve. Done! And the “O” ring was never subject to the sharp edges of the spool.

I'm almost tempted to remove the other spools and reinstall them using this new method. I did say “almost“ right?

 

[Tazza]

I solved the problem of damaging the lower “O“ ring during the installation of the spool. It was so simply I don't know why I didn't think of it sooner.
Put the new lower “O” ring onto the spool instead of in the groove of the valve body and position it all the way down the spool past the last race with the machined grooves. Then insert the spool into the valve body from the bottom as usual and push it in as far as the last oil passage before the end of the spool. (see photo below). Now using the smaller spool diameter of the oil passage for working room, maneuver the “O“ ring into it's grove and then push the spool the rest of the way into the valve. Done! And the “O” ring was never subject to the sharp edges of the spool.

I'm almost tempted to remove the other spools and reinstall them using this new method. I did say “almost“ right?

Glad you worked it out
The nylon washer is a backup ring, essentially it takes up the extra load when there is pressure on the O ring, possibly to help keep its shape? i'm not really sure why they use them, as if you cut the O ring groove the right width, i would have thought it would have sealed up just as well *shrug*. They are commonly used on hydraulic cylinder gland nuts too. They have a O ring and a backup ring, generally with an impression the same as the O ring, probably to make for a better seal.
I just hope there are no more leaks! you are now the local expert on these control blocks.

 

[Jyuma]

Glad you worked it out
The nylon washer is a backup ring, essentially it takes up the extra load when there is pressure on the O ring, possibly to help keep its shape? i'm not really sure why they use them, as if you cut the O ring groove the right width, i would have thought it would have sealed up just as well *shrug*. They are commonly used on hydraulic cylinder gland nuts too. They have a O ring and a backup ring, generally with an impression the same as the O ring, probably to make for a better seal.
I just hope there are no more leaks! you are now the local expert on these control blocks.

Well... I reinstalled the valve assembly and the thing is leaking just as bad as before. It's like I changed nothing.
I only have one thing left to try. I'm going to disassemble the entire control... every last nut, bolt “O” ring and washer. I'll pull all the valves apart and inspect and replace all the seals and/or “O” rings between the valves. Then I'll inspect and thoroughly clean every surface where an “O“ ring lives and replace every “O“ ring again.
After reassembly I'm going to sand blast the cast valve bodies down to bare metal and repaint. If it still leaks after that I'll throw the valve in the garbage and buy a new one.

 

[Tazza]

Well... I reinstalled the valve assembly and the thing is leaking just as bad as before. It's like I changed nothing.
I only have one thing left to try. I'm going to disassemble the entire control... every last nut, bolt “O” ring and washer. I'll pull all the valves apart and inspect and replace all the seals and/or “O” rings between the valves. Then I'll inspect and thoroughly clean every surface where an “O“ ring lives and replace every “O“ ring again.
After reassembly I'm going to sand blast the cast valve bodies down to bare metal and repaint. If it still leaks after that I'll throw the valve in the garbage and buy a new one.

I can see this is getting rather frustrating.... I really hope you get it sorted out!
Where is it leaking now? the bottom of the spool? or is it between segments?

 

[skidsteer.ca]

I can see this is getting rather frustrating.... I really hope you get it sorted out!
Where is it leaking now? the bottom of the spool? or is it between segments?

I feel your frustration. That looks like Greasen valve with all the sections. They are actually a excellent design that just has orings in between each section.
Ken

 

[Jyuma]

I feel your frustration. That looks like Greasen valve with all the sections. They are actually a excellent design that just has orings in between each section.
Ken

It was a fight, but I got the valves apart.
As if to tease me... one of the 3 rods used to hold the valve assembly together was rusted solid to guess which valve? Yup... #5... the same #5 that has the leak I can't stop. I had to pull the valves apart from #5 out in both directions and I was left with #5 valve alone with one rod rusted into what should have been a clearance hole. I had to clamp the rod in a vise and spin the valve around it to get it to break free.
There are 4 “O” rings that seal each segment to the next and I'd love to say that I found a few bad ones, but I can't... they all look just fine. Grrr!

The photo above was taken after the end cap was removed. The 4 “O” rings are for the #6 valve and are typical on all the valve segments. The rod below and to the left of the large “ring center picture is the rod that was rusted solid to #5 valve. You can see it is rusted to the valve shown (#6) but it wasn't rusted too badly and I was able to lift the valve off.

The photo below shows the valves completely separated and ready for a good cleaning. I'll remove the spools and all the fittings and clean the valve body in a solution called Marine Clean. It is a water soluble degreaser/cleaner that you spray on and let soak for 15 minutes and then hose off. I've used it before and it works great.

Once I can hold the valves in my hand without them slipping free due to the grease and oil that is everywhere, I'll remove the old “O” rings and replace them with new ones. I'll inspect all the mating surfaces and if everything checks out I'll reassemble and paint.
This could take a while.
Ed

 

[SkidRoe]

It was a fight, but I got the valves apart.
As if to tease me... one of the 3 rods used to hold the valve assembly together was rusted solid to guess which valve? Yup... #5... the same #5 that has the leak I can't stop. I had to pull the valves apart from #5 out in both directions and I was left with #5 valve alone with one rod rusted into what should have been a clearance hole. I had to clamp the rod in a vise and spin the valve around it to get it to break free.
There are 4 “O” rings that seal each segment to the next and I'd love to say that I found a few bad ones, but I can't... they all look just fine. Grrr!

The photo above was taken after the end cap was removed. The 4 “O” rings are for the #6 valve and are typical on all the valve segments. The rod below and to the left of the large “ring center picture is the rod that was rusted solid to #5 valve. You can see it is rusted to the valve shown (#6) but it wasn't rusted too badly and I was able to lift the valve off.

The photo below shows the valves completely separated and ready for a good cleaning. I'll remove the spools and all the fittings and clean the valve body in a solution called Marine Clean. It is a water soluble degreaser/cleaner that you spray on and let soak for 15 minutes and then hose off. I've used it before and it works great.

Once I can hold the valves in my hand without them slipping free due to the grease and oil that is everywhere, I'll remove the old “O” rings and replace them with new ones. I'll inspect all the mating surfaces and if everything checks out I'll reassemble and paint.
This could take a while.
Ed

No worries, Ed. There are at least a couple of dozen of us on the edge of our seats with our fingers crossed!!

 

[Tazza]

No worries, Ed. There are at least a couple of dozen of us on the edge of our seats with our fingers crossed!!

I for one, sure hope you don't give up on this battle! You have done everything right, old hydraulic components, especially when they have been sitting can leak from perished O rings, but you shouldn't have had all these issues.
I'm waiting to hear that you got it all working again, don't let me down

 

[skidsteer.ca]

I for one, sure hope you don't give up on this battle! You have done everything right, old hydraulic components, especially when they have been sitting can leak from perished O rings, but you shouldn't have had all these issues.
I'm waiting to hear that you got it all working again, don't let me down

You should have #5 and the sections adjacent to it magnafluxed at machine shop to look for cracks, The process is fairly cheap here locally and only takes a minute. Or at least go over it with a magnifying glass to check for cracks.
Fingers crossed, want to see a big hole and a shinny bucket in your next post!
Ken

 

[Wm McNett]

You should have #5 and the sections adjacent to it magnafluxed at machine shop to look for cracks, The process is fairly cheap here locally and only takes a minute. Or at least go over it with a magnifying glass to check for cracks.
Fingers crossed, want to see a big hole and a shinny bucket in your next post!
Ken

found this while searching. My Brantly has a Kontak Unit 10 valve. Same as a Parker K10 Seals can be found through Parker (England/UK) http://www.winget.co.uk/document/SERVICE MANUAL KONTAK CONTROL VALVE.pdf
I think its the same valve used on the Case D100 http://www.colemanequip.com/Case-D1...5C-1840-1845C-UNI-LOADERS-0PpO/?#partdiagrams
http://old.whitehouseproductsltd.co...&cat=HYDRAULIC+VALVES+&+REMOTE+CONTROL+CABLES
http://www.hy-power.com/browresults...&cat=HYDRAULIC+VALVES+&+REMOTE+CONTROL+CABLES
I contacted Parker Stan Stuckey Technical Services
Specialist Parker Hannifin Corporation Hydraulic Valve Division 373 Meuse Argonne, Hicksville, Ohio, 43526
Direct phone: 419 518 1210
Fax: 419 542 8871
sstuckey at parker.com
received this list of parts for their guy in England Interface seal kit = 3459149004 (pre October 1986; otherwise = 3469149201) ALDCV seal kit = 3459149104 Spool seal kit = 3459149003 MRV = 3459001001 (for settings of 30-100 Bar); 3459002001 (for settings of 100 - 275 Bar) - please state required pressure setting and flow on the order.

 

[Jyuma]

found this while searching. My Brantly has a Kontak Unit 10 valve. Same as a Parker K10 Seals can be found through Parker (England/UK) http://www.winget.co.uk/document/SERVICE%20MANUAL%20KONTAK%20CONTROL%20VALVE.pdf
I think its the same valve used on the Case D100 http://www.colemanequip.com/Case-D100-Backhoe-Attachment-for-Case-Uniloaders-Parts/No-Description-2a/BACKHOE-CONTROL-VALVE-KONTAK-CONTROL-LEVERS-USED-ON-1835C-1840-1845C-UNI-LOADERS-0PpO/?#partdiagrams
http://old.whitehouseproductsltd.com/browresults.asp?cid=VLV&sid=VL09&wht=KONTAK+V8000+1%2F2+BSP+VALVES+%26+PARTS&pg=scat&cat=HYDRAULIC+VALVES+%26+REMOTE+CONTROL+CABLES
http://www.hy-power.com/browresults.asp?cid=VLV&sid=VL09&wht=KONTAK+V8000+1%2F2+BSP+VALVES+%26+PARTS&pg=scat&cat=HYDRAULIC+VALVES+%26+REMOTE+CONTROL+CABLES
I contacted Parker Stan Stuckey Technical Services
Specialist Parker Hannifin Corporation Hydraulic Valve Division 373 Meuse Argonne, Hicksville, Ohio, 43526
Direct phone: 419 518 1210
Fax: 419 542 8871
sstuckey at parker.com
received this list of parts for their guy in England Interface seal kit = 3459149004 (pre October 1986; otherwise = 3469149201) ALDCV seal kit = 3459149104 Spool seal kit = 3459149003 MRV = 3459001001 (for settings of 30-100 Bar); 3459002001 (for settings of 100 - 275 Bar) - please state required pressure setting and flow on the order.

Thank you so much. I've been reading the repair manual for hours and I've filled in many of the blanks about these valves. There are a few differences though... the repair manual in the link shows spool wipers that are held in place by a retaining clip and two screws. There are no such items on my valves. Also... the manual show spacers between the valve sections at the point where the long shaft passes through the valves (at the point where the “Load Check” valve is secured by the shaft). There were no spacers between my valve sections but the seal kit that I purchased years ago does have the spacers included along with the 4 “O” rings that seal each valve to the next. I don't know if I should use the spacers or not but I can tell you this.... they are very very thin, only .003” (three thousandths) thick.

bTw... I soaked the cast valve bodies overnight in a degreaser I bought at Auto Barn and take a look at what the stuff did...

That's the best paint remover I've ever used.

All it took was a light wipe with a wire brush... no real pressure... and the cast valve body shined almost like new.