Project Skid Steer

[Grady]

Hey guys, I'm new to the skid steer world, and actually I'm redesigning one for a school project. Yall seem to know what's what, so I was hoping for anyone's advice on a few questions. I appreciate any and all feedback. Which brand do you prefer? and what is it that makes it great? How long have you been running a skid steer? How long do you operate before you take a break? What do you primarily use your skid steer/track loader for? What would you change about your machine? and briefly why? What is most uncomfortable in the cabin? Have you modified your machine in any way? How is maintenance? What are common issues? Do you perform it yourself (Y/N)? Thanks again for your input!

 

[thetool]

Oh man, where do I start?
Oh, but you're asking only about operating and not repairability....=).
Well here's some ideas that I've been kicking around. Tracked machines are popular; reliable (pilot) joystick control, visibilty of all four corners of the machine, the coupler, and the bucket, and to the rear; enclosed cab with HVAC; I like bobcat's engine/pump setup, I always wished for a slide-out power-pack. The list goes on and on. And oh, yeah, make it cheaper.
Remember me when you've made your first million......=).

 

[bobcat_ron]

Oh man, where do I start?
Oh, but you're asking only about operating and not repairability....=).
Well here's some ideas that I've been kicking around. Tracked machines are popular; reliable (pilot) joystick control, visibilty of all four corners of the machine, the coupler, and the bucket, and to the rear; enclosed cab with HVAC; I like bobcat's engine/pump setup, I always wished for a slide-out power-pack. The list goes on and on. And oh, yeah, make it cheaper.
Remember me when you've made your first million......=).

How about a CTL undercarriage with the Cat D8 style bogie rollers (kinda like the Comrodi Iron Horse) torsion axles on all 4 corners with a hydraulic lock out activation (to remain rigid if the job application calls for it) a built in tilt mechanism incorporated into the quick attach (Bobcat tilt tach basically) and again, a lock out for that, piston pumps everywhere and a large hydraulic tank, standard hi-flow, slide up front door (Takeuchi style, Deere's sucks) air ride seat with the pilot controls mounted to them (Cat style) large cab with lots of glass and awesome visibility from the rear window, rear back up camera, 100% dust free and true pressurized cab with a cyclone filter for the intake, and a cyclone filter for the engine air intake, better protection for the hydraulic couplers on the loader, variable hydraulic fan with auto-reverse, anti stall or torque management (Cat style) built in ignition immobilizer and GPS systems, more ground clearance (12" at least) narrower machine width for the bigger frames (Cat's 279-299 are too wide for most people, 72" would be neat-o) radial and vertical path loader options, there are more, but I need more beer to remember.

 

[Grady]

How about a CTL undercarriage with the Cat D8 style bogie rollers (kinda like the Comrodi Iron Horse) torsion axles on all 4 corners with a hydraulic lock out activation (to remain rigid if the job application calls for it) a built in tilt mechanism incorporated into the quick attach (Bobcat tilt tach basically) and again, a lock out for that, piston pumps everywhere and a large hydraulic tank, standard hi-flow, slide up front door (Takeuchi style, Deere's sucks) air ride seat with the pilot controls mounted to them (Cat style) large cab with lots of glass and awesome visibility from the rear window, rear back up camera, 100% dust free and true pressurized cab with a cyclone filter for the intake, and a cyclone filter for the engine air intake, better protection for the hydraulic couplers on the loader, variable hydraulic fan with auto-reverse, anti stall or torque management (Cat style) built in ignition immobilizer and GPS systems, more ground clearance (12" at least) narrower machine width for the bigger frames (Cat's 279-299 are too wide for most people, 72" would be neat-o) radial and vertical path loader options, there are more, but I need more beer to remember.

Thanks for your help! It gives me a better understanding for when we actually engineer and design a new one. What do you think about that one armed JCB skid steer? Or the new CAT c-series?

 

[Tazza]

Thanks for your help! It gives me a better understanding for when we actually engineer and design a new one. What do you think about that one armed JCB skid steer? Or the new CAT c-series?

I have never seen or used a one arm machine, but i'd feel much happier with 2 arms, i just feel its more rigid with both sides being supported by hydraulic rams.
You do know when you build a few machines, you NEED to send me one to *test* on permenant loan of course
How will you go with emissions? will you need to look at engines with ECU's? Or can you still use the standard style engines for now? I'd like to stay away from as many electro/mecahinical devices as possible.

 

[bobcat_ron]

I have never seen or used a one arm machine, but i'd feel much happier with 2 arms, i just feel its more rigid with both sides being supported by hydraulic rams.
You do know when you build a few machines, you NEED to send me one to *test* on permenant loan of course
How will you go with emissions? will you need to look at engines with ECU's? Or can you still use the standard style engines for now? I'd like to stay away from as many electro/mecahinical devices as possible.

The JCB Robot is a joke, they lack the reach and lift height of a CTL in their horsepower class and you will get very dirty pants from stepping on and off the left track to get in and out of the cab, not to mention slipping off the track while getting in and out. I sure don't get dirty while getting in and out of my Cat, I just have dirty thoughts.

 

[Earthwerks Unlimited]

The JCB Robot is a joke, they lack the reach and lift height of a CTL in their horsepower class and you will get very dirty pants from stepping on and off the left track to get in and out of the cab, not to mention slipping off the track while getting in and out. I sure don't get dirty while getting in and out of my Cat, I just have dirty thoughts.

I like answering stuff like this. When I was an 18-year-old Product Designer for a Harley-Davidson part supplier part of my job was doing research like this. The boss/owner used to call it "chasing down the hippies that buy our stuff and get their opinions"
Anywho...
Tilt-tach theme variation WITH articulating axles:
Center-pivoting axles with 3 modes:
2-axle power-down (tilt)--- would overcome having the tilt-tach at the bucket area--it would tilt the entire machine. Would be a safety feature when side-hilling---could be computer guided/assisted. Material or telehandlers use this system.
Front axle-only power-down with rear axle in "float mode"-- allows the machine to act like a front-end loader. Could be locked in any position but preferably in the center.
Transport mode--- both axles could articulate using the power-down cylinders as shock absorbers. An on-board accelerometer perhaps working with the gyro would monitor the machine to provide hydraulic "spring" to keep the machine from looking a rag-doll with a loose head.
NOTE: If a front or rear articulating axle is in a non-locked mode and is subjected to skid steering an automatic controller would be required to bring the axle(s) back to normal center to prevent from scrubbing/flipping and lifting the machine especially if it were to encounter a hole or loose/soft terrain.
NOTE: Bobcat had/has a model that had multimode steerable axles. Never operated one. But I did see about 10 years ago a skid steer created in Europe (I think maybe Italy) that had a hydraulic motor on each solid axle that allowed each wheel to spin around like a driven caster. Jeep had a concept car a few years ago that could do sort of the same thing.
Having the ability to sideways drive would solve many space issues turning around in tight spaces. My machine requires about 14 feet to spin around.
Active counterbalance--- Most machines are set up 30-70 or 40-60 weight distribution. All that changes when going up a hill or filling a bucket. To compensate, the front and rear of the machine could contain reservoirs that would contain liquid calcium chloride which is heavier than water that would be pumped quickly to/from the reservoirs to gain optimal weight distribution. If 4 reservoirs were used--1 at each corner, the fluid could be shifted to the up-hill side when side-hilling. It was mentioned earlier about added oil capacity---oil could be used intead of calcium chloride.
Power extending loader arms--- I have only seen one machine (made in Korea or Taiwan I think) The active counterbalance system would be a must but make this concept practicable. I wish I had this when I load trucks with slabs of broken concrete.
Brain fart:
What about a rotating "house" like an excavator has? Kewl, huh? You would never have to turn the whole machine around unless you wanted to. It will be dubbed a zero-turn loader or "ZTL". Unlike an excavator, the machine would know where FRONT is so that forwad means forward.

 

[bobcat_ron]

I like answering stuff like this. When I was an 18-year-old Product Designer for a Harley-Davidson part supplier part of my job was doing research like this. The boss/owner used to call it "chasing down the hippies that buy our stuff and get their opinions"
Anywho...
Tilt-tach theme variation WITH articulating axles:
Center-pivoting axles with 3 modes:
2-axle power-down (tilt)--- would overcome having the tilt-tach at the bucket area--it would tilt the entire machine. Would be a safety feature when side-hilling---could be computer guided/assisted. Material or telehandlers use this system.
Front axle-only power-down with rear axle in "float mode"-- allows the machine to act like a front-end loader. Could be locked in any position but preferably in the center.
Transport mode--- both axles could articulate using the power-down cylinders as shock absorbers. An on-board accelerometer perhaps working with the gyro would monitor the machine to provide hydraulic "spring" to keep the machine from looking a rag-doll with a loose head.
NOTE: If a front or rear articulating axle is in a non-locked mode and is subjected to skid steering an automatic controller would be required to bring the axle(s) back to normal center to prevent from scrubbing/flipping and lifting the machine especially if it were to encounter a hole or loose/soft terrain.
NOTE: Bobcat had/has a model that had multimode steerable axles. Never operated one. But I did see about 10 years ago a skid steer created in Europe (I think maybe Italy) that had a hydraulic motor on each solid axle that allowed each wheel to spin around like a driven caster. Jeep had a concept car a few years ago that could do sort of the same thing.
Having the ability to sideways drive would solve many space issues turning around in tight spaces. My machine requires about 14 feet to spin around.
Active counterbalance--- Most machines are set up 30-70 or 40-60 weight distribution. All that changes when going up a hill or filling a bucket. To compensate, the front and rear of the machine could contain reservoirs that would contain liquid calcium chloride which is heavier than water that would be pumped quickly to/from the reservoirs to gain optimal weight distribution. If 4 reservoirs were used--1 at each corner, the fluid could be shifted to the up-hill side when side-hilling. It was mentioned earlier about added oil capacity---oil could be used intead of calcium chloride.
Power extending loader arms--- I have only seen one machine (made in Korea or Taiwan I think) The active counterbalance system would be a must but make this concept practicable. I wish I had this when I load trucks with slabs of broken concrete.
Brain fart:
What about a rotating "house" like an excavator has? Kewl, huh? You would never have to turn the whole machine around unless you wanted to. It will be dubbed a zero-turn loader or "ZTL". Unlike an excavator, the machine would know where FRONT is so that forwad means forward.

Too many electronics for the axles BS, but I lke the brain fart idea, that is something that would be really handy for truck loading with a CTL/SSL and avoiding counter-rotation turns.
The extending arms idea was patented by a Taiwan company, it's will never catch on unless JCB does it, too much weight and there are some stupid operators out there.
The counter balance, same thing, too much electronic BS to be practical, and using the hydraulic supply is bad news with all the sloshing around it will do, it will add air bubbles and kill your pumps.
Articulating axles on the SSL is definatley a needed invention!

 

[thetool]

Too many electronics for the axles BS, but I lke the brain fart idea, that is something that would be really handy for truck loading with a CTL/SSL and avoiding counter-rotation turns.
The extending arms idea was patented by a Taiwan company, it's will never catch on unless JCB does it, too much weight and there are some stupid operators out there.
The counter balance, same thing, too much electronic BS to be practical, and using the hydraulic supply is bad news with all the sloshing around it will do, it will add air bubbles and kill your pumps.
Articulating axles on the SSL is definatley a needed invention!

I don't think JCB is the only manufacturer that could think to put a pressure switch in the lift circuit that at a certain pressure could lock out lift/extend/drive. This is simple.
I like Ron's idea of a locking track suspension. Maybe nitrogen accumulators with a closeable orifice, connected to shock-like cylinders on a swing-arm?
A skid-steer with a house-intersesting. I'm thinking it would be drive lock-out in any postition except straight fore and aft. But I'm also thinking about swing bearings, swivel vavles, swing motors-yuck!

 

[Earthwerks Unlimited]

I don't think JCB is the only manufacturer that could think to put a pressure switch in the lift circuit that at a certain pressure could lock out lift/extend/drive. This is simple.
I like Ron's idea of a locking track suspension. Maybe nitrogen accumulators with a closeable orifice, connected to shock-like cylinders on a swing-arm?
A skid-steer with a house-intersesting. I'm thinking it would be drive lock-out in any postition except straight fore and aft. But I'm also thinking about swing bearings, swivel vavles, swing motors-yuck!

Shane, a house like an excavator already has is a no-brainer--all that tried-and-true technology exists. right? I have only seen ONE machine with a bad turntable, an early 90's Bobcat that was neglected.

 

[Tazza]

Shane, a house like an excavator already has is a no-brainer--all that tried-and-true technology exists. right? I have only seen ONE machine with a bad turntable, an early 90's Bobcat that was neglected.

The over pressure switches you mentioned, my dad actually fits these to earth moving gear now. Its law for machines over X size that they have hose burst protection, if a hose blows the boom won't simply fall and kill someone. They have the same on cranes so you can't over extend and have it topple over on you. Angle sensors so it won't fall on its side too.
All the technology exists to make quite a nice machine with things everyone wants but at what cost..... You need to keep the price down so its atrtractive but have enough features to keep the operators interested.
I personally think the biggest thing is to keep the engine, pump and motors a known brand. This way the customers won't think that you are a new company, whats the service going to be like? if the main components are common, availability is not an issue.

 

[thetool]

The over pressure switches you mentioned, my dad actually fits these to earth moving gear now. Its law for machines over X size that they have hose burst protection, if a hose blows the boom won't simply fall and kill someone. They have the same on cranes so you can't over extend and have it topple over on you. Angle sensors so it won't fall on its side too.
All the technology exists to make quite a nice machine with things everyone wants but at what cost..... You need to keep the price down so its atrtractive but have enough features to keep the operators interested.
I personally think the biggest thing is to keep the engine, pump and motors a known brand. This way the customers won't think that you are a new company, whats the service going to be like? if the main components are common, availability is not an issue.

EU-I wasn't bagging on the idea, just that it dosen't seem appealing to work on, but it would interesting from an operators perspective. I am trying to envision how one would go about cross-breeding a loader and excavator using existing designs.
I'm also trying to envision articulating axles, driven from a center shaft at the trunnion, in a skid-steer application. It won't work in my head. Dosen't mean somebody else can't figure it out. I keep coming back to a motor on each wheel, which makes axles moot.
I think to have this kind of stuff a guy needs to clear his mind of current designs and come up with a new layout, but it's beyond my imagination.
For Tazza-an extendable boom, with a pressure switch in the base end of the lift circuit. You grab a load you want to reach and dump, pick it up, and lift pressure goes up. Below a certain pressure, a green light in the dash, telling you ok to extend. Beyond a certain pressure, red light, locks out the extend circuit.???
About the counterweight-a powered jackscrew running th length of the machine, in a tunnel inside. Threaded on the jackscrew is a big a$$ weight that can be driven fore and aft. Tire pressure sensors that are available now on cars, and a computer, tell the wieght where to be at any given time.???
Start building this stuff and the machines can only get too big and heavy and more expensive.

 

[thetool]

EU-I wasn't bagging on the idea, just that it dosen't seem appealing to work on, but it would interesting from an operators perspective. I am trying to envision how one would go about cross-breeding a loader and excavator using existing designs.
I'm also trying to envision articulating axles, driven from a center shaft at the trunnion, in a skid-steer application. It won't work in my head. Dosen't mean somebody else can't figure it out. I keep coming back to a motor on each wheel, which makes axles moot.
I think to have this kind of stuff a guy needs to clear his mind of current designs and come up with a new layout, but it's beyond my imagination.
For Tazza-an extendable boom, with a pressure switch in the base end of the lift circuit. You grab a load you want to reach and dump, pick it up, and lift pressure goes up. Below a certain pressure, a green light in the dash, telling you ok to extend. Beyond a certain pressure, red light, locks out the extend circuit.???
About the counterweight-a powered jackscrew running th length of the machine, in a tunnel inside. Threaded on the jackscrew is a big a$$ weight that can be driven fore and aft. Tire pressure sensors that are available now on cars, and a computer, tell the wieght where to be at any given time.???
Start building this stuff and the machines can only get too big and heavy and more expensive.

And another thing about the JCB Robot. This is a very interesting machine, it's original in its design, unlike most other skid-steers which are 95% Bobcat copies, old or new.
There are unique things inside the Robot, besides what you see on the outside. The chaincase(one) is on the left. Both drive motors are on the left. Both axles are driven from the left. The right axles extend through the bottom of machine. That's a simple explanation. It's actually more unique than all that. And they're not bad to work on in spite of all that funny stuff.
The boom, boom cylinder, tilt cylinder, and pins are massive. I would match it strength-wise against any current boom/coupler set-up.
It would be the perfect platform for an extendable boom. Which strikes me now as what Ron probably meant, I was thinking about tele-handler technology when he said that-sorry ron.
I like the side entry with wheels, but the track is a pain as Ron said. I don't know why he said it's lift and reach is a joke. It's about like any other radius-lift machine, though I don't know the exact specs.
What I don't like about JCB is the way they are put together-stripped out screws, mainly, and the parts seem pricey.

 

[Tazza]

And another thing about the JCB Robot. This is a very interesting machine, it's original in its design, unlike most other skid-steers which are 95% Bobcat copies, old or new.
There are unique things inside the Robot, besides what you see on the outside. The chaincase(one) is on the left. Both drive motors are on the left. Both axles are driven from the left. The right axles extend through the bottom of machine. That's a simple explanation. It's actually more unique than all that. And they're not bad to work on in spite of all that funny stuff.
The boom, boom cylinder, tilt cylinder, and pins are massive. I would match it strength-wise against any current boom/coupler set-up.
It would be the perfect platform for an extendable boom. Which strikes me now as what Ron probably meant, I was thinking about tele-handler technology when he said that-sorry ron.
I like the side entry with wheels, but the track is a pain as Ron said. I don't know why he said it's lift and reach is a joke. It's about like any other radius-lift machine, though I don't know the exact specs.
What I don't like about JCB is the way they are put together-stripped out screws, mainly, and the parts seem pricey.

With so many parts on one side, do the balance out with the lift arm? With the bobcats i know the weight from side to side is the same, or close enough to it. I do turn side on from time to tme on hills, i'd rather not have a heavy side and find myself on my side if there was too much weight on one side.

 

[Earthwerks Unlimited]

Tazz I assume you were asking me, so yes the active counterbalance
would be just that; It would constantly "know" or sense which
side--front, back, corner or a combination of any to give the optimal
balance. A high-volume low-pressure pump and simple valving would
direct the fluid where it's needed almost instantaneously.

If you've ever seen a tower crance used to build tall buildings you
would have seen a traveling counterbalance that moves back and forth
to counter the load.

I have a 8'-6" snow blade on my skid steer=---I'd love to have the
ability to add several hundred pounds instantly to the front to help
keep the front down. And this would be handy when going up hills
forward when not loaded--sometimes I have to go up backward to get
traction. Alos, another application for active weight control (the
machine's-- not mine hahaha) is for augering holes in frost when you
need down pressure; using a jack hammer attachment; and grading when
you need to dig in the bucket.

And again all this technology can be off-the-shelf--take a look at any
smart phone--it knows which way is up. In fact my T-Mobile G-1 cell
phone has a mock "bubble level" feature that can be used if the phone
is on its side OR on its back! So now I tell people I have a digital
level that is ALSO a cell phone! tehehe!

 

[Earthwerks Unlimited]

Tazz I assume you were asking me, so yes the active counterbalance
would be just that; It would constantly "know" or sense which
side--front, back, corner or a combination of any to give the optimal
balance. A high-volume low-pressure pump and simple valving would
direct the fluid where it's needed almost instantaneously.

If you've ever seen a tower crance used to build tall buildings you
would have seen a traveling counterbalance that moves back and forth
to counter the load.

I have a 8'-6" snow blade on my skid steer=---I'd love to have the
ability to add several hundred pounds instantly to the front to help
keep the front down. And this would be handy when going up hills
forward when not loaded--sometimes I have to go up backward to get
traction. Alos, another application for active weight control (the
machine's-- not mine hahaha) is for augering holes in frost when you
need down pressure; using a jack hammer attachment; and grading when
you need to dig in the bucket.

And again all this technology can be off-the-shelf--take a look at any
smart phone--it knows which way is up. In fact my T-Mobile G-1 cell
phone has a mock "bubble level" feature that can be used if the phone
is on its side OR on its back! So now I tell people I have a digital
level that is ALSO a cell phone! tehehe!

Sorry guys, "tower crance" should be "tower crane"---can a moderator change that for me plze?

 

[thetool]

Sorry guys, "tower crance" should be "tower crane"---can a moderator change that for me plze?

Tazza the Robot is balanced left/right, with typical skid-steer fore-aft balance. Up/down balance is comparable to the lower cg's of Bobcats. I think the Robot gets a bum rap. I guess they're common in the UK.

 

[thetool]

Tazza the Robot is balanced left/right, with typical skid-steer fore-aft balance. Up/down balance is comparable to the lower cg's of Bobcats. I think the Robot gets a bum rap. I guess they're common in the UK.

I must admit a mistake here. Today, I worked on anothe JCB Robot, and the Chaincase and motors are on the RIGHT, under the boom. Then I thought, uh-oh, I ran think I raved about it being on the left, and I surely did.....
Anyway, I'm full of it, but the machine is still balanced left/right.........

 

[sp6x6]

I must admit a mistake here. Today, I worked on anothe JCB Robot, and the Chaincase and motors are on the RIGHT, under the boom. Then I thought, uh-oh, I ran think I raved about it being on the left, and I surely did.....
Anyway, I'm full of it, but the machine is still balanced left/right.........

I think bobcat ron and earthwerks both had some great ideas there. I'm in home construction and have often had ideas for tools, jigs etc. then a few years later theres on of my ideas for sale. I am always modifying things to work better. The big boy companys could gain insite from some of these forums.