Considering a bobcat

[David95966]

I have 15 acres in the foothills of the Sierra Nevadas, hoping to build a small farm. The soil is hard dry rocky clay with no grass. I know nothing about bobcats or skidsteers in general, other than I've seen bobcats everywhere and the number of attachments is impressive. I plan to visit a dealer, but I want to be forearmed. Craigslist does not have many used machines. Bobcat of Chico has a few. I want to build raised beds for growing vegetables. I need to dig two feet below the beds to integrate compost into the soil. The beds will be on a medium to slight slope. The size will be about 4'x10'. I may want to remove some rocks from the bed of a seasonal creek at the bottom of the hill, about a 1/4 mile away. The hill is fairly steep in places. There is a path wide enough perhaps for a Toyota Tacoma. I have not tried driving there yet. I plan to plant 20 to 30 fruit trees. I'll need big holes as the soil needs to be improved. Several places need to be leveled, to place a water tank, to build a deck, and the like. What bobcat should I consider? I want to buy used, then sell after the construction is complete, maybe three years. What attachments do I need? What other question should I be asking?

 

[Tazza]

As you want to dig garden beds, i'd look at an excavator attachment. It would do a good job digging holes for the fruit trees too.
For what you are talking about, any mid sized machine would do the job. The bigger you go, the faster it will work is all.

 

[Tigerhaze]

I think it is good that you have started with defining your objectives/uses for the machine, as many people skip over that when asking the question. Based on your needs, I am on the fence on whether a skidsteer loader (i.e. "Bobcat") is the best choice for you, or another type of machine such as a TLB (tractor/loader/backhoe) or crawler loader with hoe attachment.
A skidsteer loader could do most of the work you described, but my concerns/considerations would be removing rocks in the creek and digging holes for the trees as well as steeper slopes. Wheeled skid steers do not do well in wet/muddy conditions without chains or tracks and can be problematic on steeper slopes. The holes for the trees could either be made with a large auger or backhoe attachment, or with the loader bucket. However use of those attachments (other than bucket) requires a larger skid steer loader with enough auxillary hydrualic pump flow to run them. The operating weight/tipping weight will be of concern for moving large (i.e. heavy) rocks and greater breakout force will be needed for hardened or rocky soils, again pointing to a larger skid steer. The slope/traction issues lead to use of chains/tracks for wheeled skid steers (but hard on the drive axles) or a compact track loader (the tracked version of a wheeled skid steer) but abrasive conditions are hard on the tracks.
There are also drawbacks to other types of equipment such as a TLB or crawler loader, but I guess my thinking is that they are generally a larger machine with more breakout force, longer reach, and greater stability that can overcome some of the conditions you described. Hopefully you are getting a flavor for the considerations in selection of a machine, and this helps you ask some more questions.

 

[David95966]

I think it is good that you have started with defining your objectives/uses for the machine, as many people skip over that when asking the question. Based on your needs, I am on the fence on whether a skidsteer loader (i.e. "Bobcat") is the best choice for you, or another type of machine such as a TLB (tractor/loader/backhoe) or crawler loader with hoe attachment.
A skidsteer loader could do most of the work you described, but my concerns/considerations would be removing rocks in the creek and digging holes for the trees as well as steeper slopes. Wheeled skid steers do not do well in wet/muddy conditions without chains or tracks and can be problematic on steeper slopes. The holes for the trees could either be made with a large auger or backhoe attachment, or with the loader bucket. However use of those attachments (other than bucket) requires a larger skid steer loader with enough auxillary hydrualic pump flow to run them. The operating weight/tipping weight will be of concern for moving large (i.e. heavy) rocks and greater breakout force will be needed for hardened or rocky soils, again pointing to a larger skid steer. The slope/traction issues lead to use of chains/tracks for wheeled skid steers (but hard on the drive axles) or a compact track loader (the tracked version of a wheeled skid steer) but abrasive conditions are hard on the tracks.
There are also drawbacks to other types of equipment such as a TLB or crawler loader, but I guess my thinking is that they are generally a larger machine with more breakout force, longer reach, and greater stability that can overcome some of the conditions you described. Hopefully you are getting a flavor for the considerations in selection of a machine, and this helps you ask some more questions.

Thank you tigerhaze for providing a useful answer. I am inclined to agree that a TLB would be better for me than a skidsteer, but I'm interested in the details. What are the drawbacks of the TLB? Price? Size? I'm really asking at a basic level, knowing nothing. Can anyone else join in the debate?

 

[HanSolo]

Thank you tigerhaze for providing a useful answer. I am inclined to agree that a TLB would be better for me than a skidsteer, but I'm interested in the details. What are the drawbacks of the TLB? Price? Size? I'm really asking at a basic level, knowing nothing. Can anyone else join in the debate?

How large are the rocks you plan on moving? Estimating those weights and considering the load capability on your prospective machine will be important. Also, a word of caution regarding creeks - the EPA has stringent regulations on altering stream habitat. What they don't know won't be a problem - but if they inspect and there's no permit - it could be a big problem for you.

 

[SolarMike]

Thank you tigerhaze for providing a useful answer. I am inclined to agree that a TLB would be better for me than a skidsteer, but I'm interested in the details. What are the drawbacks of the TLB? Price? Size? I'm really asking at a basic level, knowing nothing. Can anyone else join in the debate?

You might want to consider a tool cat, it will do a good many things a skid steer will and you could use it for mowing and property maintance.

 

[Tigerhaze]

Thank you tigerhaze for providing a useful answer. I am inclined to agree that a TLB would be better for me than a skidsteer, but I'm interested in the details. What are the drawbacks of the TLB? Price? Size? I'm really asking at a basic level, knowing nothing. Can anyone else join in the debate?

A TLB (commonly known as "backhoe") is going to vary in price depending on age and model just like any other piece of construction equipment including skid steer loaders. You can find them for just a couple thousand on the low end for an older, smaller TLB up to $50K for a newer, larger model.
A TLB generally is heavier and has a wider wheelbase than a comparable HP skid steer loader which makes it a little more stable, especially when the stabilizers (outriggers) are used for the backhoe. However they are generally a little harder to transport due to their length, and the choice of attachments is more limited than for a skid steer loader.
I am not trying to steer you towards a TLB over a skid steer loader, but there are inherent tradeoffs between the two types of equipment and some of the conditions you describe may favor one over the other. Ideally you could have both but most people are budget limited and skid steers are more universally selected due to their transportability and adaptability to a wide range of attachments.

 

[David95966]

A TLB (commonly known as "backhoe") is going to vary in price depending on age and model just like any other piece of construction equipment including skid steer loaders. You can find them for just a couple thousand on the low end for an older, smaller TLB up to $50K for a newer, larger model.
A TLB generally is heavier and has a wider wheelbase than a comparable HP skid steer loader which makes it a little more stable, especially when the stabilizers (outriggers) are used for the backhoe. However they are generally a little harder to transport due to their length, and the choice of attachments is more limited than for a skid steer loader.
I am not trying to steer you towards a TLB over a skid steer loader, but there are inherent tradeoffs between the two types of equipment and some of the conditions you describe may favor one over the other. Ideally you could have both but most people are budget limited and skid steers are more universally selected due to their transportability and adaptability to a wide range of attachments.

I found a 2000 Bobcat T864 with 3000 hours. It comes witha bucket with teeth. The asking price is $14,500. The tracks are at 45%. I wonder if the teeth bucket will scrape up the clay and rocks. It takes a long time based on the hardness of the clay? Does this seem right for me? More than I wanted to pay.

 

[lesgawlik]

I found a 2000 Bobcat T864 with 3000 hours. It comes witha bucket with teeth. The asking price is $14,500. The tracks are at 45%. I wonder if the teeth bucket will scrape up the clay and rocks. It takes a long time based on the hardness of the clay? Does this seem right for me? More than I wanted to pay.

I have a T200, which is essentially the same thing. Going down two feet into hard packed clay with anything other than an excavator is going to be tough. My T200 was the perfect machine for me, and like you, I had almost no experience with skidsteers. For what you want to do, the key will be finding the right combination of attachments. My first attachment was a little backhoe attachment, nothing fancy, just the steel arm, bucket and cylinder. That would be good for digging holes for the trees. It would also get you down 2' into the clay if you have to. The bucket will allow you to mix up the soil a little and grade it how you want it. You can also get a land plane with raker teeth. That will allow you to dig up a few inches at a time while back dragging. The T200 is a heavy, wide machine that is very stable on inclines. Do a good pre-purchase. Drain and replace the drive motor oil. Look for iridescence in the oil oil. Pull the filters and pour the contents into a clean paper cup. Look for brass. Check the oil pressure, blowback out of the filler, and run a compression test. Good luck!

 

[Mikefromcny]

I have a T200, which is essentially the same thing. Going down two feet into hard packed clay with anything other than an excavator is going to be tough. My T200 was the perfect machine for me, and like you, I had almost no experience with skidsteers. For what you want to do, the key will be finding the right combination of attachments. My first attachment was a little backhoe attachment, nothing fancy, just the steel arm, bucket and cylinder. That would be good for digging holes for the trees. It would also get you down 2' into the clay if you have to. The bucket will allow you to mix up the soil a little and grade it how you want it. You can also get a land plane with raker teeth. That will allow you to dig up a few inches at a time while back dragging. The T200 is a heavy, wide machine that is very stable on inclines. Do a good pre-purchase. Drain and replace the drive motor oil. Look for iridescence in the oil oil. Pull the filters and pour the contents into a clean paper cup. Look for brass. Check the oil pressure, blowback out of the filler, and run a compression test. Good luck!

I'm not sure how the 864 was, but it was bobcats first track machine. I would hold out for a T250 or something slightly younger incase they had some bugs to work out. In my area, a cheap T190s start at 11K or so, T250s in the 13k range, and the sky is the limit the newer you go. Expect to pay 13K for a minimum. I know they arent bobcats but the takeuchi track machines are supposed to be phenomenal as well.

 

[David95966]

I'm not sure how the 864 was, but it was bobcats first track machine. I would hold out for a T250 or something slightly younger incase they had some bugs to work out. In my area, a cheap T190s start at 11K or so, T250s in the 13k range, and the sky is the limit the newer you go. Expect to pay 13K for a minimum. I know they arent bobcats but the takeuchi track machines are supposed to be phenomenal as well.

I also found a 2009 CT122 with 700 hours ith a loader and backhoe for sale from the bobcat dealer for $13,500. The CT seems underpowered for what I want, but the backhoe attachment make more sense to me for hard clay than trying to scrape it with a bucket. Am I right? Thanks for everyone playing devil's advocate.

 

[jerry]

I also found a 2009 CT122 with 700 hours ith a loader and backhoe for sale from the bobcat dealer for $13,500. The CT seems underpowered for what I want, but the backhoe attachment make more sense to me for hard clay than trying to scrape it with a bucket. Am I right? Thanks for everyone playing devil's advocate.

The red clay here when dry a smooth edge bucket won't even scratch but with a tooth bar on the same bucket and you can dig all you want.

 

[lesgawlik]

The red clay here when dry a smooth edge bucket won't even scratch but with a tooth bar on the same bucket and you can dig all you want.

I got my machine to go through clay fill. When the fill was dumped, it was as fluid as concrete. When it dried out, it was as hard as, well, concrete. The tracks were perfect for working with the mud. I have a tooth bar which I have not taken off since I put it on. I don't think the plain bucket, even with a cutting edge, would touch the hardened clay. The bucket with the tooth bar will scrape the surface, but if the clay is dry and you're really trying to get down 2', I think you'll shake your fillings loose before you're finished. A back hoe attachment would be perfect. The plain stick attachments are relatively cheap and easy to find. I bought one off of ebay. It had cheap steel and bad welds. But I took it to a weld shop, and they reinforced it. I use it often, and it's a great attachment. The overall cost, including the modification, was not that much.

 

[David95966]

I found a 2000 Bobcat T864 with 3000 hours. It comes witha bucket with teeth. The asking price is $14,500. The tracks are at 45%. I wonder if the teeth bucket will scrape up the clay and rocks. It takes a long time based on the hardness of the clay? Does this seem right for me? More than I wanted to pay.

Will the T864 accept a backhoe attachment? If so, what kind would be recommended?

 

[David95966]

Will the T864 accept a backhoe attachment? If so, what kind would be recommended?

How will the compact tractor do the hill down to the rocks?

 

[Hotrod1830]

How will the compact tractor do the hill down to the rocks?

Is it possible to rent a T200 for a weekend? Go dig some rocks and dirt and see how you like it. Alot of places around here will rent it over the weekend for a single days charge as long as you dont go over 8 hours. But, I cant see you going wrong with a track loader with attatchments.

 

[reaperman]

Will the T864 accept a backhoe attachment? If so, what kind would be recommended?

A 864 was a good machine in its day. But with 3000 hrs, its days maybe limited. Many improvements have been made on the back of the 864's debut. One is the front idler wheels. The bearings were prone to go out. Now the bearing is sealed with oil, a much better design. The Duetz engine has been replaced with a Kubota in the T200 which followed the 864. A T200 is a great machine, good visibility, and a lot of power. Tracks being at 45%, may or may not tell the story on longevity. A tracks life span is around 2000 hrs, and a older track can tear out at any time. They tear out from the holes in the center of the track that the drive sprocket grabs. A new set of tracks will set you back between 3k to 4k, depending on brand. Cheaper tracks wont give the same lifespan and the more $$ ones. Most homeowners may not be too pleased to shell out this kind of $$$ for a set of tracks. I always tell people looking at a track machine they are awesome. But they are not always meant for homeowner use. A track machine should be making you money to justify the maintenance these machines can bring. But dont get me wrong, they are reliable and will do anything you ask them to. But a used track machine probably has a history of hard use and the unexpected can occur. Good luck with your search.

 

[lesgawlik]

A 864 was a good machine in its day. But with 3000 hrs, its days maybe limited. Many improvements have been made on the back of the 864's debut. One is the front idler wheels. The bearings were prone to go out. Now the bearing is sealed with oil, a much better design. The Duetz engine has been replaced with a Kubota in the T200 which followed the 864. A T200 is a great machine, good visibility, and a lot of power. Tracks being at 45%, may or may not tell the story on longevity. A tracks life span is around 2000 hrs, and a older track can tear out at any time. They tear out from the holes in the center of the track that the drive sprocket grabs. A new set of tracks will set you back between 3k to 4k, depending on brand. Cheaper tracks wont give the same lifespan and the more $$ ones. Most homeowners may not be too pleased to shell out this kind of $$$ for a set of tracks. I always tell people looking at a track machine they are awesome. But they are not always meant for homeowner use. A track machine should be making you money to justify the maintenance these machines can bring. But dont get me wrong, they are reliable and will do anything you ask them to. But a used track machine probably has a history of hard use and the unexpected can occur. Good luck with your search.

My T200 has a Deutz BF4M 1011F. It is oil cooled, no there is no water-based engine coolant. The same oil used to lubricate the engine is pumped through the block as the coolant. It is also pumped through a radiator core to heat the cab. Like anything else, there are pros and cons. I think they're a good engine. Just be careful to change the timing belt. It is an interference engine, and you will at least bend rods if you break a belt. I did not buy a real back hoe attachment. The attachment I bought is just a piece of square tube, a bucket and a cylinder. Many places make them up, they're all over auction sites.

 

[Bobcatdan]

My T200 has a Deutz BF4M 1011F. It is oil cooled, no there is no water-based engine coolant. The same oil used to lubricate the engine is pumped through the block as the coolant. It is also pumped through a radiator core to heat the cab. Like anything else, there are pros and cons. I think they're a good engine. Just be careful to change the timing belt. It is an interference engine, and you will at least bend rods if you break a belt. I did not buy a real back hoe attachment. The attachment I bought is just a piece of square tube, a bucket and a cylinder. Many places make them up, they're all over auction sites.

864 are pieces of junk, don't buy one of those money pits. Look for a decent 753, 763 or 773. Preferably a g series for better attachment compatibility. That size machine will do pretty much every thing you need. For deep digging, rent a mini a weekend or two. Lot more cost effective and productive then the backhoe attachment. Same with attachments, unless you see yourself that attachment a ton, rent it.