Bobcat 443 Pump Belt Idler Bent.

[Nickyjpd]

New member here. Thanks to everyone for a great site. Read all posts for my machine and very informative. New machine to me, and am getting it back up to snuff after being horribly abused by previous owner. So far I've got the blower idler on order, ready to install with new belt, and new alternator with new belt (both were missing!!!!). My big problem is the idler for the pump. Its bent. It sits on a shaft (Bobcat dealer gave a cut sheet from parts manual). I don't know if its sitting on a bent bolt (as I was told was possible) or a bent shaft (seems more likely). I purchased the manual, and I can't see how the tension is adjusted for repair, removal or service whatsoever. The space is really tight in there. Any suggestions or advice on service, or directions for putting some slack on the belt? Many Thanks in advance.

 

[OldMachinist]

The idler is spring loaded by a torsion spring. It's the same setup as the 463 this member's post is about.
http://www.skidsteerforum.com/DesktopDefault.aspx?tabid=54&frmView=ShowPost&PostID=70925
The only way to really work on it is to pull the engine/pump assembly.

 

[Nickyjpd]

The idler is spring loaded by a torsion spring. It's the same setup as the 463 this member's post is about.
http://www.skidsteerforum.com/DesktopDefault.aspx?tabid=54&frmView=ShowPost&PostID=70925
The only way to really work on it is to pull the engine/pump assembly.

Thanks for your response. I tried to respond with a post of the diagram I have, but I couldn't get it to work. (I did follow the faq but after checking html, I got the form that wouldn't accept any input whatsoever). Great resource, and I need to see how to get that parts search to work. The manual is a ton of money. I get a failure when I hit that link, even using windows explorer. I admit I'm a huge newbie on this equipment, but the diagram I have is completely different. The diagram in that post shows an idler that is of a newer design (from automotive experience). The 443 uses a shaft, not an idler in a housing as shown. I'm dreading pulling the whole engine and pump out, but its looking like that is the case. On the 443 they are separate components not on a common mount, or assembly. Probably making matters worse for me. Unless I'm missing something.

 

[OldMachinist]

Thanks for your response. I tried to respond with a post of the diagram I have, but I couldn't get it to work. (I did follow the faq but after checking html, I got the form that wouldn't accept any input whatsoever). Great resource, and I need to see how to get that parts search to work. The manual is a ton of money. I get a failure when I hit that link, even using windows explorer. I admit I'm a huge newbie on this equipment, but the diagram I have is completely different. The diagram in that post shows an idler that is of a newer design (from automotive experience). The 443 uses a shaft, not an idler in a housing as shown. I'm dreading pulling the whole engine and pump out, but its looking like that is the case. On the 443 they are separate components not on a common mount, or assembly. Probably making matters worse for me. Unless I'm missing something.

The member in that post asked what the newer idler design looked like and that's the diagram I posted. The 443,453 and 463 used the same design like this diagram.

 

[antfarmer2]

The member in that post asked what the newer idler design looked like and that's the diagram I posted. The 443,453 and 463 used the same design like this diagram.

Take a look at ebay might be able to get a cd for 10 bucks

 

[OldMachinist]

Take a look at ebay might be able to get a cd for 10 bucks

There were two engine/pump mounting designs on the 443. On the early one the engine/pump assembly came out together and on the later they came out one at a time. Most recent version of the service manual(Bobcat part #6566694) covers both removal procedures.
Service manual instant download from TradeBit.com $19.95.
http://www.tradebit.com/filedetail.php/126415082-bobcat-melroe-440-443-443b-service-repair

 

[Nickyjpd]

There were two engine/pump mounting designs on the 443. On the early one the engine/pump assembly came out together and on the later they came out one at a time. Most recent version of the service manual(Bobcat part #6566694) covers both removal procedures.
Service manual instant download from TradeBit.com $19.95.
http://www.tradebit.com/filedetail.php/126415082-bobcat-melroe-440-443-443b-service-repair

Thanks for all the info. Yes that is the diagram I have, and yes I have the manual. I always buy manuals first thing. Have been unable to find parts manual which I find more valuable generally. I read and understand the removal instructions, however, I'm still confused as to if I need to pull the pump. I was hoping to not have to pull the engine, but that seems like a pipe dream right now. The question I have which I have not seen, is how to put slack on the belt (and/or remove the belt for replacement). Can't find it in the manual anywhere. Also, if anyone could give me an idea of how long I should plan for engine removal, it would be greatly appreciated. Thanks again for all your help.

 

[antfarmer2]

Thanks for all the info. Yes that is the diagram I have, and yes I have the manual. I always buy manuals first thing. Have been unable to find parts manual which I find more valuable generally. I read and understand the removal instructions, however, I'm still confused as to if I need to pull the pump. I was hoping to not have to pull the engine, but that seems like a pipe dream right now. The question I have which I have not seen, is how to put slack on the belt (and/or remove the belt for replacement). Can't find it in the manual anywhere. Also, if anyone could give me an idea of how long I should plan for engine removal, it would be greatly appreciated. Thanks again for all your help.

Looks like you put a wrench on the tension pulley nut to remove belt the cd I got had blow apart views that help a lot they have one on ebay it would be worth the chance for 10 bucks

 

[antfarmer2]

Looks like you put a wrench on the tension pulley nut to remove belt the cd I got had blow apart views that help a lot they have one on ebay it would be worth the chance for 10 bucks

Sorry bolt #14

 

[Nickyjpd]

Sorry bolt #14

Thanks again. I've been looking, only CD's or downloads I can find are for repair/service, which I have. I need parts manual. I'll keep an eye out, but i've been looking for weeks now.

 

[OldMachinist]

Thanks again. I've been looking, only CD's or downloads I can find are for repair/service, which I have. I need parts manual. I'll keep an eye out, but i've been looking for weeks now.

I just looked at the service manual again and what I said about removing engine on early and later models was for the gas models. On the diesel model the engine and pumps have to come out together. The hydrostatic section of the service manual has some info on the drive belt idler.

What problem are you having with the online parts look up?

 

[skayser2]

Nickyjdp, just wrapped up R&R engine and pump unit to service the idler assembly. Unit has to be removed on my 463 to service anything other than just the belt. It's possible the short 3/8" bolt on the idler bracket that mounts the idler pulley could be bent but unlikely. In my situation the main bearing was bad as was the inner bushing (worse). Both mount the idler bracket (shaft) as you are naming it. The tension spring had also broken. It appears that the rear bushing is the culprit that starts the shaft/spring failure. The inside bronze bushing (not a bearing) is fixed in it's flange and is mounted to it's engine support bracket. The idler bracket inside end is slotted for mounting the tension spring tang. The bracket may only rotate 1/8 of a turn or less (to compensate for belt tension) but the slot will wear the fixed bushing. Eventually the bracket wears through the bushing, through the bushing flange and into the engine/support bracket. I suspect that is what has happened to yours and why something appears bent. I just replace the bracket, rear bushing, outside bearing, spring and pulley. The rear fix would have been to replace the bushing with a true flange bearing also. Hope this helps. Steve

 

[skayser2]

Nickyjdp, just wrapped up R&R engine and pump unit to service the idler assembly. Unit has to be removed on my 463 to service anything other than just the belt. It's possible the short 3/8" bolt on the idler bracket that mounts the idler pulley could be bent but unlikely. In my situation the main bearing was bad as was the inner bushing (worse). Both mount the idler bracket (shaft) as you are naming it. The tension spring had also broken. It appears that the rear bushing is the culprit that starts the shaft/spring failure. The inside bronze bushing (not a bearing) is fixed in it's flange and is mounted to it's engine support bracket. The idler bracket inside end is slotted for mounting the tension spring tang. The bracket may only rotate 1/8 of a turn or less (to compensate for belt tension) but the slot will wear the fixed bushing. Eventually the bracket wears through the bushing, through the bushing flange and into the engine/support bracket. I suspect that is what has happened to yours and why something appears bent. I just replace the bracket, rear bushing, outside bearing, spring and pulley. The rear fix would have been to replace the bushing with a true flange bearing also. Hope this helps. Steve

Here is a picture of the inside bushing (should be a small flange bearing instead) the worn end of the idler bracket (Bobcat calls it a bracket not a shaft) and the broken spring. If the bushing mount plate was turned around you could see where the bracket had started to were into the bushing mount (worn far enough, something may appear bent). Removal of the engine and pump assembly wasn't bad. Installation was a different story for me. Some kind of HOIST needed. Hoses need to follow their exact path as when removed!! http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn277/skayser2/Tensionspringfailure002_zps2efc12a5.jpg
Hope this helps, Steve

 

[skayser2]

Here is a picture of the inside bushing (should be a small flange bearing instead) the worn end of the idler bracket (Bobcat calls it a bracket not a shaft) and the broken spring. If the bushing mount plate was turned around you could see where the bracket had started to were into the bushing mount (worn far enough, something may appear bent). Removal of the engine and pump assembly wasn't bad. Installation was a different story for me. Some kind of HOIST needed. Hoses need to follow their exact path as when removed!! http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn277/skayser2/Tensionspringfailure002_zps2efc12a5.jpg
Hope this helps, Steve

 

[skayser2]

As far as time involved.....2.5 hrs engine removal if experienced ....4 hrs if using the manual step by step. Installation...mine took all day...nothing went right. I'd say 4 hrs had everything gone okay for me. Still looking for my 13/16" wrench. It's in there somewhere ) Had to wait a week and a half for parts from Bobcat (warehouse closed over the Holiday week) Steve

 

[Nickyjpd]

As far as time involved.....2.5 hrs engine removal if experienced ....4 hrs if using the manual step by step. Installation...mine took all day...nothing went right. I'd say 4 hrs had everything gone okay for me. Still looking for my 13/16" wrench. It's in there somewhere ) Had to wait a week and a half for parts from Bobcat (warehouse closed over the Holiday week) Steve

That is actually a great help. Much appreciated. thank you. I've already got the alternator out, and the blower assy is out (waiting on that part when I noticed the bent pump idler), so I'm hoping it will save me a little bit of time. Did you have to remove the pump? LOL on missing wrench, can't say I haven't had that happen before. This weekend the weather is supposed to warm up, so I'm going to pull it then, I'm taking the whole weekend....I need to do a lot of clean up anyway, and this makes it easier. I like to pressure wash engines....this one is a mess, and I'd rather do it with it pulled out to not get water in anywhere it will bite me in the keister later. With the engine out, I can pressure wash that, and then take my time cleaning out the engine compartment. Thanks again for your help.

 

[Nickyjpd]

That is actually a great help. Much appreciated. thank you. I've already got the alternator out, and the blower assy is out (waiting on that part when I noticed the bent pump idler), so I'm hoping it will save me a little bit of time. Did you have to remove the pump? LOL on missing wrench, can't say I haven't had that happen before. This weekend the weather is supposed to warm up, so I'm going to pull it then, I'm taking the whole weekend....I need to do a lot of clean up anyway, and this makes it easier. I like to pressure wash engines....this one is a mess, and I'd rather do it with it pulled out to not get water in anywhere it will bite me in the keister later. With the engine out, I can pressure wash that, and then take my time cleaning out the engine compartment. Thanks again for your help.

To Old Machinist. Oh, I saw them come out as separate as well, but to be honest I looked up pump in most detail, and it did not require engine removal so I assumed the converse was true. Once engine was removed I would have access to everything. I'll relook at it again in the morning. Regarding on screen look up. My machine is set up mostly for chrome, and Firefox. I do have internet explorer, but it just loads the page in parts, and none of the fields or pull downs, or buttons work. I'm going to set up a different computer this weekend, and set it up for the garage, and use internet explorer exclusively, that should fix that problem. Thanks for all your help, all you guys are super helpful here.

 

[OldMachinist]

To Old Machinist. Oh, I saw them come out as separate as well, but to be honest I looked up pump in most detail, and it did not require engine removal so I assumed the converse was true. Once engine was removed I would have access to everything. I'll relook at it again in the morning. Regarding on screen look up. My machine is set up mostly for chrome, and Firefox. I do have internet explorer, but it just loads the page in parts, and none of the fields or pull downs, or buttons work. I'm going to set up a different computer this weekend, and set it up for the garage, and use internet explorer exclusively, that should fix that problem. Thanks for all your help, all you guys are super helpful here.

To use the Bobcat online parts look up I have to use "compatibility view" in Explorer.

 

[Nickyjpd]

To use the Bobcat online parts look up I have to use "compatibility view" in Explorer.

I'll give it a shot. Thanks for the heads up. I did some more digging and head scratching, regarding the engine+/-pump removal and I think I see what i was missing. Pump is attached to engine via item #9 from your diagram, so they do come out together. They can either come out together, or the pump first, and then the engine. Did I get it figured out right in my head? Sorry to be so snivelling about this, I can pull car engines and transmissions all day, this is new to me, and the parts are a chore to get, and its such a dirty mess its hard to make heads or tails of the unfamiliar components.......so I'm being extra cautious. Tomorrow is the big day, going to hit a whopping 30 degrees so I'm locking myself in the garage and at least getting it out, and hopefully finish up the diagnosis so I can order parts by end of day. Wish me luck, and thank for all the input, invaluable.