873F head gasket or Turbo problem?

[shotym2]

I am just about to attempt a head gasket change on the Deutz. Had what seems to be typical symptoms of a head gasket failure- mild runaway, huge amounts of smoke. so bought a new $140 gasket. As I was beginning to prep for the head removal I removed the side access covers and found the entire rear of the engine with a nice thick oil and dirt coating. I am not certain if it is oil or diesel but should be no reason to have diesel dripping off the back of the engine. Mostly looks like it is dripping out of the intake runner/gaskets. My question is : do I have a head gasket failure or a turbo failure? Are their different symptoms for each? How do you troubleshoot a headgasket vs turbo leak? I think I will still do the head gasket but do not want to possibly ruin it if the turbo is the problem and have a catastrophic runaway.
Thanks
Dwight

 

[Fishfiles]

usually you don't buy the head gasket for a Deutz till you get the old one out as there are 3 different thicknesses of gaskets which has to be matched to what was in the engine , look on the new and old gasket and make sure the numbers match up before installing , a different thickness will cause you problems ---you mentioned run away , a turbo which is leaking oil will cause that problem , and is pretty easy to determine if it is leaking by pulling off the hose coming off the turbo and running your finger inside of it to see if it is coated with oil

 

[shotym2]

usually you don't buy the head gasket for a Deutz till you get the old one out as there are 3 different thicknesses of gaskets which has to be matched to what was in the engine , look on the new and old gasket and make sure the numbers match up before installing , a different thickness will cause you problems ---you mentioned run away , a turbo which is leaking oil will cause that problem , and is pretty easy to determine if it is leaking by pulling off the hose coming off the turbo and running your finger inside of it to see if it is coated with oil

We checked for the notches on the gasket before we went shopping so we are OK there. Will pull off the intake hose and check for oil and see how much slop there is in the shaft. Is the turbo as common a problem as the headgasket?
After it belched out smoke we let it cool down a few minutes, restarted it and drove it for about another 5-6 minutes (at low to half throttle) and then shut it down with no issue. Next day started it and ran it another 5 mins or so to get on the trailer. If it were the turbo seals leaking would it not pump oil past the seal all the time and make it almost unrunnable (new word)?
Thanks

 

[Tazza]

We checked for the notches on the gasket before we went shopping so we are OK there. Will pull off the intake hose and check for oil and see how much slop there is in the shaft. Is the turbo as common a problem as the headgasket?
After it belched out smoke we let it cool down a few minutes, restarted it and drove it for about another 5-6 minutes (at low to half throttle) and then shut it down with no issue. Next day started it and ran it another 5 mins or so to get on the trailer. If it were the turbo seals leaking would it not pump oil past the seal all the time and make it almost unrunnable (new word)?
Thanks

Even with a bad turbo it would still run, it will just blow smoke as its not forcing as much air into the cylinders to burn. I too would check for oil in the inlet manifold and turbo shaft play.

 

[shotym2]

Even with a bad turbo it would still run, it will just blow smoke as its not forcing as much air into the cylinders to burn. I too would check for oil in the inlet manifold and turbo shaft play.

Finished changing out the head gasket. Can't really tell where it was leaking however one head bolt hole was filled with oil. Checked the turbo as well, there was some oil in the intake but anmsure it was from the crankcase breather, no oil in the impellers at all. There was just a hint of movement in the shaft. It runs but can't work it hard to check it out until later in the week. It does seem to be running rich though.
Found a couple of other problems.
One of the rocker retaining bolts is stretched and couldn't get it to full torque so it will need to be replaced.
Fan tensioner pulley was melted in half(bearing failure), also fan belt was in chunks in the bottom of the pan. Thought I could get something close at NAPA but they have nothing.
Had to replace all of the rubber fuel return lines. Couldn't get anything like original and rubber fuel line was too big to fit by the injector so had to get rubber windshield washer line, says it is ok around fuel or grease bur will keep looking as I think it will have a short lifespan.

 

[Tazza]

Finished changing out the head gasket. Can't really tell where it was leaking however one head bolt hole was filled with oil. Checked the turbo as well, there was some oil in the intake but anmsure it was from the crankcase breather, no oil in the impellers at all. There was just a hint of movement in the shaft. It runs but can't work it hard to check it out until later in the week. It does seem to be running rich though.
Found a couple of other problems.
One of the rocker retaining bolts is stretched and couldn't get it to full torque so it will need to be replaced.
Fan tensioner pulley was melted in half(bearing failure), also fan belt was in chunks in the bottom of the pan. Thought I could get something close at NAPA but they have nothing.
Had to replace all of the rubber fuel return lines. Couldn't get anything like original and rubber fuel line was too big to fit by the injector so had to get rubber windshield washer line, says it is ok around fuel or grease bur will keep looking as I think it will have a short lifespan.

If its running ritch, that sounds like the turbo isn't boosting making the air/fuel mixture wrong. I'm not sure how its controlled, so i can't advise on how to check that the boost pressure is correct or how to adjust it.
I don't see the wiper hose lasting either, but its something to get you going again.

 

[shotym2]

If its running ritch, that sounds like the turbo isn't boosting making the air/fuel mixture wrong. I'm not sure how its controlled, so i can't advise on how to check that the boost pressure is correct or how to adjust it.
I don't see the wiper hose lasting either, but its something to get you going again.

Sooo, took it to a friends acreage to try it out. Was working well for about a half hour and then same thing happens, revs up and the neighbourhood disappears in a cloud of smoke. I was working it about half to 3/4 throttle levelling some lumps and generally playing around. Temp got up to about 230 deg(fan belt and idler pulley are shot so no cooling fan operating). I let it cool off to under 200 before I restarted it, loaded it on the trailer and throttled it up to half again. Maybe 5 mins later temp was at about 200 and then started to smoke. I shut it down and pulled it home. I am going to remove the intake hose off of the turbo tomorrow to see if there is an excessive amount of oil in there, may also take the plugs out of the manifold and check for oil in there as well. Mine does not have a pcv valve but does have a line from the right side of the head/block to the intake side of the turbo. Could oil be making its way to the engine thru there?I had it slightly overfilled with oil, could that be the problem? The head gasket installation seemed pretty straightforward. Is there any obvious way to screw it up that badly? I did have one exterior head bolt hole that was full of oil. I tried to remove as much as I could. If I did not get enough oil out and it affected the torque I was getting on it would it leak like that if one bolt is slightly under torque? Just wonder why it worked great for that length of time then poof, cracked head or cylinder liner? Is there a thermostat in the cooling loop that had to open before bad things happened?
sorry about the long post and probably stupid questions, just slightly pissed.
Dwight

 

[Tazza]

Sooo, took it to a friends acreage to try it out. Was working well for about a half hour and then same thing happens, revs up and the neighbourhood disappears in a cloud of smoke. I was working it about half to 3/4 throttle levelling some lumps and generally playing around. Temp got up to about 230 deg(fan belt and idler pulley are shot so no cooling fan operating). I let it cool off to under 200 before I restarted it, loaded it on the trailer and throttled it up to half again. Maybe 5 mins later temp was at about 200 and then started to smoke. I shut it down and pulled it home. I am going to remove the intake hose off of the turbo tomorrow to see if there is an excessive amount of oil in there, may also take the plugs out of the manifold and check for oil in there as well. Mine does not have a pcv valve but does have a line from the right side of the head/block to the intake side of the turbo. Could oil be making its way to the engine thru there?I had it slightly overfilled with oil, could that be the problem? The head gasket installation seemed pretty straightforward. Is there any obvious way to screw it up that badly? I did have one exterior head bolt hole that was full of oil. I tried to remove as much as I could. If I did not get enough oil out and it affected the torque I was getting on it would it leak like that if one bolt is slightly under torque? Just wonder why it worked great for that length of time then poof, cracked head or cylinder liner? Is there a thermostat in the cooling loop that had to open before bad things happened?
sorry about the long post and probably stupid questions, just slightly pissed.
Dwight

I don't like the sound that the temperature is getting high. I don't know how prone the heads are to cracking...
As for the oil, if you use an air gun, you should be able to blow all the oil out of the hole to allow the bolt to go in correctly. If not, it will hydraulic and possibly cause damage when it expands and compresses with no where to go.

 

[shotym2]

I don't like the sound that the temperature is getting high. I don't know how prone the heads are to cracking...
As for the oil, if you use an air gun, you should be able to blow all the oil out of the hole to allow the bolt to go in correctly. If not, it will hydraulic and possibly cause damage when it expands and compresses with no where to go.

The 230 deg mark is right in the middle of the guage. What should it be running at? I was thinking about removing the bolt and wicking out all of the oil and retorquing it. Would a single bolt say with only 100 ft lbs of torque allow a leak?
Thanks
Dwight

 

[Tazza]

The 230 deg mark is right in the middle of the guage. What should it be running at? I was thinking about removing the bolt and wicking out all of the oil and retorquing it. Would a single bolt say with only 100 ft lbs of torque allow a leak?
Thanks
Dwight

If the 230 is the middle, its ok.
I can't see one bolt being a huge issue, but i wouldn't like to test it. Head gaskets take a lot of pressure. You did mention you had the problem even before you did the head gasket.... I suspect there is another issue, not the gasket.

 

[shotym2]

If the 230 is the middle, its ok.
I can't see one bolt being a huge issue, but i wouldn't like to test it. Head gaskets take a lot of pressure. You did mention you had the problem even before you did the head gasket.... I suspect there is another issue, not the gasket.

Yea, looks that way. The oil level was really high. I had poured back what I had taken out when I did the head and tonight I took out at least 2 gallons of oil go get it into the proper range on the dipstick. It does have a bit of a diesel smell to it. Would it be possible that if it is that overfilled that ran down the crankcase breather into the intake?
Also Took off the intake hose off the turbo and there was oil sitting there. Took off the crankcase vent tube hoping it would be full of oil but it way relatively clean. I got a good grip on the turbo shaft and 1 got a good 1/8" of movement up and down. I am not sure how much movement is allowable but I think that may be the real problem and additionally may have a fuel pump seal leaking into the sump. Would help explain the high oil level.
Am I going in the right direction? What does a turbo cost in $C?
Thanks for the all the advise
Dwight

 

[Fishfiles]

Yea, looks that way. The oil level was really high. I had poured back what I had taken out when I did the head and tonight I took out at least 2 gallons of oil go get it into the proper range on the dipstick. It does have a bit of a diesel smell to it. Would it be possible that if it is that overfilled that ran down the crankcase breather into the intake?
Also Took off the intake hose off the turbo and there was oil sitting there. Took off the crankcase vent tube hoping it would be full of oil but it way relatively clean. I got a good grip on the turbo shaft and 1 got a good 1/8" of movement up and down. I am not sure how much movement is allowable but I think that may be the real problem and additionally may have a fuel pump seal leaking into the sump. Would help explain the high oil level.
Am I going in the right direction? What does a turbo cost in $C?
Thanks for the all the advise
Dwight

sounds like maybe a lift pump leaking diesel into the engine , overfilling it and blowing out the crank case vent into the turbo and maybe the cooler is externally blocked up with dirt and needs to be blown with air or pressure washed out ----------- " $ C " , does that mean Canadian dollars ---- turbo cost a small fortune , if there is a rebuild shop close by then it is cheaper to have it rebuilt than to buy it from a dealer ----- the windshield wiper hose last a while but from my experiences with it , it is going to get soft and start leaking

 

[shotym2]

sounds like maybe a lift pump leaking diesel into the engine , overfilling it and blowing out the crank case vent into the turbo and maybe the cooler is externally blocked up with dirt and needs to be blown with air or pressure washed out ----------- " $ C " , does that mean Canadian dollars ---- turbo cost a small fortune , if there is a rebuild shop close by then it is cheaper to have it rebuilt than to buy it from a dealer ----- the windshield wiper hose last a while but from my experiences with it , it is going to get soft and start leaking

If time permits am going to try it out again today. Will try keep temps in the 200 range and see if it works. I would have expected to see more oil in the turbo and black crap on the impeller if the turbo had a leak but it was nice and shiny. Going to reread the service manual and see if there is a tolerance for the shaft movement. Will keep a closer eye on the oil level today
The wiper hose is ok for this testing crap but it need to be replaced right away. Ebay has turbo for $650. Is that a decent price?
Thanks
Dwight

 

[shotym2]

If time permits am going to try it out again today. Will try keep temps in the 200 range and see if it works. I would have expected to see more oil in the turbo and black crap on the impeller if the turbo had a leak but it was nice and shiny. Going to reread the service manual and see if there is a tolerance for the shaft movement. Will keep a closer eye on the oil level today
The wiper hose is ok for this testing crap but it need to be replaced right away. Ebay has turbo for $650. Is that a decent price?
Thanks
Dwight

Well, took it out and fooled around for an hour or so and it worked well, temp never came above 200 and no runaway. After it was cooled off I checked the oil level and it was up about 3 inches on the dip stick. Will do an oil and filter change today. Heading to the city next weekend so will buy a new lift pump as I assume that is the best place to start. Do the injection pumps ever blow a seal like that? I have one injection pump that seems wet but I can't tell if its oil or diesel.
D

 

[Fishfiles]

Well, took it out and fooled around for an hour or so and it worked well, temp never came above 200 and no runaway. After it was cooled off I checked the oil level and it was up about 3 inches on the dip stick. Will do an oil and filter change today. Heading to the city next weekend so will buy a new lift pump as I assume that is the best place to start. Do the injection pumps ever blow a seal like that? I have one injection pump that seems wet but I can't tell if its oil or diesel.
D

Yes the seal in the injection pump can let fuel into the block , you can do a simply test on the lift pump to ensure it is bad before buying it , unbolt the pump from the block , block the outlet side hose and pump the pump by hand and you will see if it leaks

 

[shotym2]

Yes the seal in the injection pump can let fuel into the block , you can do a simply test on the lift pump to ensure it is bad before buying it , unbolt the pump from the block , block the outlet side hose and pump the pump by hand and you will see if it leaks

I worked it a bit on Sunday at the next door neighbours and kept a very close eye on the oil level. Only ran it about 40 mins at a time then let it cool off and rechecked the oil. Did not seem to rise.
Just after I had started it just died like it was out of fuel but had have a good quarter tank. Squeezed the primer a couple times and it fired right up. It did seem like it was missing from inside the cab, sound was not quite right.
Tonight I pulled off the lift pump and pressured it up. At first it only leaked ouboard but then I tolted it so the plunger was down and it started to drip out of the plunger so would say that the pump 'may' have been the problem all along. Also the clamp on the fuel line at the filter was loose so that may be the cause of the stalling.
As for the miss what is the easiest way to tell which one is missing? I was going to crack each hi pressure line and see which one did not make any difference. Not much finesse in that method though
Thanks
Dwight

 

[Fishfiles]

I worked it a bit on Sunday at the next door neighbours and kept a very close eye on the oil level. Only ran it about 40 mins at a time then let it cool off and rechecked the oil. Did not seem to rise.
Just after I had started it just died like it was out of fuel but had have a good quarter tank. Squeezed the primer a couple times and it fired right up. It did seem like it was missing from inside the cab, sound was not quite right.
Tonight I pulled off the lift pump and pressured it up. At first it only leaked ouboard but then I tolted it so the plunger was down and it started to drip out of the plunger so would say that the pump 'may' have been the problem all along. Also the clamp on the fuel line at the filter was loose so that may be the cause of the stalling.
As for the miss what is the easiest way to tell which one is missing? I was going to crack each hi pressure line and see which one did not make any difference. Not much finesse in that method though
Thanks
Dwight

I'd replace the lift pump before worring about the miss as that clear the miss up

 

[shotym2]

I'd replace the lift pump before worring about the miss as that clear the miss up

Bought new lift pump and o-ring, valve cover gasket, rocker arm bolt, fan belt, idler pulley and fuel return line. Got all the outside the engine stuff in place and did a 15 min run up. Was still missing, but didn't get a chance to work it at all. Oil level didn't look like it changed but really not long enough run time to tell. Will try to get it out tomorrow and see how deep the frost is, if it doesn't snow first . Hope this fixes it.

 

[shotym2]

Bought new lift pump and o-ring, valve cover gasket, rocker arm bolt, fan belt, idler pulley and fuel return line. Got all the outside the engine stuff in place and did a 15 min run up. Was still missing, but didn't get a chance to work it at all. Oil level didn't look like it changed but really not long enough run time to tell. Will try to get it out tomorrow and see how deep the frost is, if it doesn't snow first . Hope this fixes it.

After a long winter I got the thing out of the snowbank to do a little ice removal from the driveway. I checked the oil before I moved it and it was near the bottom of the add mark but it was also on a bit of a forward slope. Used it for about an hour and parked it on a more level surface, maybe slightly back sloping and the oil is in the middle to top of the range. I will take it to a buddies place to move some snow to try get a little time on it but if the oil level comes up my problem has not been fixed. Pretty much leaves an injector pump(s) as the culprit.
Is it common/probable for the injector pumps to leak fuel into the crankcase? Can they be easily tested? How tough to install and set clearances on a new injector pump?
Thanks again