863 problems

[westbrooklawn]

I was running my 1997 863 across a mild slope (right side downhill), when the engine started knocking and blowing large amounts of white smoke. It then reved extremely high and would not shut down with throttle or key... I had to lower the bucket and stall it to turn the engine off. I waited a minute, and restarted it, got back on level ground, and it ran fine. Did it one more time in the same spot (right side low). I checked the engine oil, it appeared to be overfilled... ran it with the dipstick out and it was pumping oil out of the dipstick tube. What has happened? I ran it for several hours after that an it seemed fine... power good, etc., but oil still reads way over full. Hydro fluid level is where it should be. Oil seemed too thin to me also... is diesel getting into the oil somehow? Thanks in advance for any help.

 

[OldMachinist]

Be very careful running this machine until you know for sure what caused the engine runaway. A ruaway diesel will destroy itself rather quickly. To cause runaway ether fuel or engine oil is making it's way uncontrolled to the intake. The high oil level in the crankcase is likely being sucked in thru ether the crankcase vent tube or the turbocharger when you put in on the slope. Or you might have a bad seal in the turbocharger. You need to find what is causing the high oil level. Drain the oil and see if it smells like fuel or has coolant in it.

 

[westbrooklawn]

Be very careful running this machine until you know for sure what caused the engine runaway. A ruaway diesel will destroy itself rather quickly. To cause runaway ether fuel or engine oil is making it's way uncontrolled to the intake. The high oil level in the crankcase is likely being sucked in thru ether the crankcase vent tube or the turbocharger when you put in on the slope. Or you might have a bad seal in the turbocharger. You need to find what is causing the high oil level. Drain the oil and see if it smells like fuel or has coolant in it.

Oil doesn't smell like fuel... no coolant in this machine (Deusch oil cooled engine).

 

[OldMachinist]

Oil doesn't smell like fuel... no coolant in this machine (Deusch oil cooled engine).

I found in the service manual that the Positive Crankcase Ventilation System has a check ball in it to prevent oil from being drawn in the air cleaner housing when the loader is operated on a slope to the right side. Look in the air claener housing to see if there is oil getting in there. The manual says to replace the PCV module if the ball isn't freely moving.
I would still find out what is raising the oil level even if the runaway problem is just a problem with the PCV.
Here are the pages of the manual on the PCV.

 

[m610]

I found in the service manual that the Positive Crankcase Ventilation System has a check ball in it to prevent oil from being drawn in the air cleaner housing when the loader is operated on a slope to the right side. Look in the air claener housing to see if there is oil getting in there. The manual says to replace the PCV module if the ball isn't freely moving.
I would still find out what is raising the oil level even if the runaway problem is just a problem with the PCV.
Here are the pages of the manual on the PCV.

This Deutz engine has those lousy Bosch fuel pumps that wear out and leak diesel right in the engine. Sometimes the fuel rail can bind up and cause the engine to stall or rev up. Obviously you have to check the stop solenoid to see if it works, but you can also rig up a choke cable to the manual shut off lever to try and stop the engine for testing purposes. With runaway neither has an effect. The only thing that can thin out the oil and raise its level is diesel because the hydraulic oil circuit is totally independent and there is no coolant in the Deutz. Since your runaway condition happens when you are leaning right, the direction of the fuel rail movement when speeding up I would also have a look at the governor. Check your turbo for excessive oil leakage as a crankcase filled with motor oil and diesel can easily cause runaway. On a high hour engine blowby can easily leak past cylinders but that happens on level ground too.

 

[westbrooklawn]

This Deutz engine has those lousy Bosch fuel pumps that wear out and leak diesel right in the engine. Sometimes the fuel rail can bind up and cause the engine to stall or rev up. Obviously you have to check the stop solenoid to see if it works, but you can also rig up a choke cable to the manual shut off lever to try and stop the engine for testing purposes. With runaway neither has an effect. The only thing that can thin out the oil and raise its level is diesel because the hydraulic oil circuit is totally independent and there is no coolant in the Deutz. Since your runaway condition happens when you are leaning right, the direction of the fuel rail movement when speeding up I would also have a look at the governor. Check your turbo for excessive oil leakage as a crankcase filled with motor oil and diesel can easily cause runaway. On a high hour engine blowby can easily leak past cylinders but that happens on level ground too.

O.K., You have all given me some items to check... problem is, while I consider myself an above average "handyman" mechanic on most gas engines, I am not at all familiar with working on bobcats... especially this diesel engine. In my online research I have previously heard that the fuel pump could be the culprit... is there anyway to test it?... is it easily replaced? I want to fix this myself if possible... I only hear horror stories about prices from the local Bobcat dealer. Since the machine only has 995 original hours I don't believe it a leak past the cylinders. How do I check the turbo? I'm sure many are rolling their eyes at this point, but I really do appreciate the help, and I think I can do the fix with some assistance (and maybe a service manual!)

 

[OldMachinist]

O.K., You have all given me some items to check... problem is, while I consider myself an above average "handyman" mechanic on most gas engines, I am not at all familiar with working on bobcats... especially this diesel engine. In my online research I have previously heard that the fuel pump could be the culprit... is there anyway to test it?... is it easily replaced? I want to fix this myself if possible... I only hear horror stories about prices from the local Bobcat dealer. Since the machine only has 995 original hours I don't believe it a leak past the cylinders. How do I check the turbo? I'm sure many are rolling their eyes at this point, but I really do appreciate the help, and I think I can do the fix with some assistance (and maybe a service manual!)

You can download the service manuals here.
http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=31fe914bdce0f590ab1eab3e9fa335cab8e2b4c31deea551

 

[m610]

O.K., You have all given me some items to check... problem is, while I consider myself an above average "handyman" mechanic on most gas engines, I am not at all familiar with working on bobcats... especially this diesel engine. In my online research I have previously heard that the fuel pump could be the culprit... is there anyway to test it?... is it easily replaced? I want to fix this myself if possible... I only hear horror stories about prices from the local Bobcat dealer. Since the machine only has 995 original hours I don't believe it a leak past the cylinders. How do I check the turbo? I'm sure many are rolling their eyes at this point, but I really do appreciate the help, and I think I can do the fix with some assistance (and maybe a service manual!)

Because of the person nice enough to make the manuals available online you are way ahead. While it is possible to mess up a machine by working on it, that danger is very much reduced by having the manual to refer to. Old machinist solves problem #1, manuals. He also gave you the information about how to check the pcv system, another plus. Now for the fuel pumps they are very easy to remove, and only a little tricky to re-install. They ride on the camshaft and are individual to each cylinder. I test them by removing each pump and its injector and with fuel going in squeeze the plunger in and watch the injector spray. A leaky pump drips out the plunger side. Sometimes you can find an honest diesel shop to test them, however around here all diesel shops seem to be crooks. I did make my own plunger and barrel assembly on my mini-lathe after several unsuccessful tries. If you have access to Chinese imports they are available for as little as 5.00 US. Diesel shops will charge 50.00 and up for the same stuff. The turbo is pretty easy to diagnose as the exhaust side would tend to be covered with carbon. My way of testing it is to remove its oil feed line and connect it to a hose and an old radiator overflow bottle full of oil. I pump up the bottle with a radiator tester and put a hair dryer at the turbo intake. If any oil comes out the turbo needs new seals. You would have to remove the muffler to examine the turbo in any detail and beware of the studs breaking off when you do so. You can fix this problem yourself given enough advice and patience.

 

[westbrooklawn]

Because of the person nice enough to make the manuals available online you are way ahead. While it is possible to mess up a machine by working on it, that danger is very much reduced by having the manual to refer to. Old machinist solves problem #1, manuals. He also gave you the information about how to check the pcv system, another plus. Now for the fuel pumps they are very easy to remove, and only a little tricky to re-install. They ride on the camshaft and are individual to each cylinder. I test them by removing each pump and its injector and with fuel going in squeeze the plunger in and watch the injector spray. A leaky pump drips out the plunger side. Sometimes you can find an honest diesel shop to test them, however around here all diesel shops seem to be crooks. I did make my own plunger and barrel assembly on my mini-lathe after several unsuccessful tries. If you have access to Chinese imports they are available for as little as 5.00 US. Diesel shops will charge 50.00 and up for the same stuff. The turbo is pretty easy to diagnose as the exhaust side would tend to be covered with carbon. My way of testing it is to remove its oil feed line and connect it to a hose and an old radiator overflow bottle full of oil. I pump up the bottle with a radiator tester and put a hair dryer at the turbo intake. If any oil comes out the turbo needs new seals. You would have to remove the muffler to examine the turbo in any detail and beware of the studs breaking off when you do so. You can fix this problem yourself given enough advice and patience.

I stopped by the Bobcat dealer today, and got a chance to talk to one of the mechanics... he immediately said my problem was the fuel pump. There is only one (not multiple pumps as shown/mentioned above). He showed me the pump location on a machine they had in the shop. Is it possible the manuals above are for a different vintage 863? I truly appreciate all the help you guys are providing... there just seems to be a little bit of difference between what the manual provided shows and what I am seeing on my machine. I only looked at the engine manual, so I will have to take a harder look at all of them. The mechanic also said it would be necessary to get all of the contaminated oil out of the cooling system portion of the loop... They do this by pumping new oil in the radiator until it comes out clear on the other end... I will have to see if I can rig sometning u to do this. Keep the tips and comments coming... I really appreciate it.

 

[m610]

I stopped by the Bobcat dealer today, and got a chance to talk to one of the mechanics... he immediately said my problem was the fuel pump. There is only one (not multiple pumps as shown/mentioned above). He showed me the pump location on a machine they had in the shop. Is it possible the manuals above are for a different vintage 863? I truly appreciate all the help you guys are providing... there just seems to be a little bit of difference between what the manual provided shows and what I am seeing on my machine. I only looked at the engine manual, so I will have to take a harder look at all of them. The mechanic also said it would be necessary to get all of the contaminated oil out of the cooling system portion of the loop... They do this by pumping new oil in the radiator until it comes out clear on the other end... I will have to see if I can rig sometning u to do this. Keep the tips and comments coming... I really appreciate it.

Maybe they mean the lift pump, which is on the side of the engine. However, in my experience when they fail the engine loses fuel and shuts off. You can also remove the contaminated oil by removing the oil cooler lower line and blowing air through it. Generally the Kubota engines typical in today's Bobcats have a single injection pump but I have never seen a Deutz B4M 1011F engine with a single injection pump. If you think your lift pump leaks all you have to do is take the hose coming out of it and plug it, then squeeze the primer bulb and see if fuel still flows.

 

[westbrooklawn]

Maybe they mean the lift pump, which is on the side of the engine. However, in my experience when they fail the engine loses fuel and shuts off. You can also remove the contaminated oil by removing the oil cooler lower line and blowing air through it. Generally the Kubota engines typical in today's Bobcats have a single injection pump but I have never seen a Deutz B4M 1011F engine with a single injection pump. If you think your lift pump leaks all you have to do is take the hose coming out of it and plug it, then squeeze the primer bulb and see if fuel still flows.

m610- It must be the pump you are calling the "lift pump"... it is the one that has the line with the primer bulb. The mechanic said that the pump doesn't totally fail, but the seal on the pump rod fails, and it allows the pump to pump fuel into the oil. Make any sense? The pump I bought from them actually says "Fuel Pump" on the label on the box... part # 6 677 830.

 

[Tazza]

m610- It must be the pump you are calling the "lift pump"... it is the one that has the line with the primer bulb. The mechanic said that the pump doesn't totally fail, but the seal on the pump rod fails, and it allows the pump to pump fuel into the oil. Make any sense? The pump I bought from them actually says "Fuel Pump" on the label on the box... part # 6 677 830.

The fuel pump is different to the injector pump. The fuel pump is low pressure that feeds the injector pumps. The injector pumps produce the high pressure to the injectors. Its different parts to the same system, one feeds the other.

 

[m610]

m610- It must be the pump you are calling the "lift pump"... it is the one that has the line with the primer bulb. The mechanic said that the pump doesn't totally fail, but the seal on the pump rod fails, and it allows the pump to pump fuel into the oil. Make any sense? The pump I bought from them actually says "Fuel Pump" on the label on the box... part # 6 677 830.

The reason I call it a "lift pump" is a force of habit. The older Bobcats had the fuel tank up higher so gravity would push it to the injection pump. When the located the fuel tank under the engine the "lift" was needed to get fuel tot he injection pump(s). I have replaced them before, and each one was leaking air and could not keep up with the engine's demand.

 

[westbrooklawn]

The reason I call it a "lift pump" is a force of habit. The older Bobcats had the fuel tank up higher so gravity would push it to the injection pump. When the located the fuel tank under the engine the "lift" was needed to get fuel tot he injection pump(s). I have replaced them before, and each one was leaking air and could not keep up with the engine's demand.

Both explanations make sense... I am learning as I go. Which (fuel pump or injector pumps) would be more likely the cause of sudden substantial fuel in oil? The local bobcat mechanic seemed to think it was the fuel pump... I bought one, but don't have it installed yet. I am also a little concerned about being able to get all the contaminated oil out of the cooling system. If I disconnect both lines from the radiator, and somehow apply air pressure to one side, will it force all the oil out? A second thought I had was to replace the oil in the crankcase (10 qts of total 17 qts in system), run the engine for a few minutes, and then drain and replace the crankcase oil again. Assuming a 50% fuel/oil ratio to begin with, this process would get the amount of fuel in the oil down to under a quart after two changes, and of course subsequent changes would lower it even further... would this be acceptable?

 

[skidsteer.ca]

Both explanations make sense... I am learning as I go. Which (fuel pump or injector pumps) would be more likely the cause of sudden substantial fuel in oil? The local bobcat mechanic seemed to think it was the fuel pump... I bought one, but don't have it installed yet. I am also a little concerned about being able to get all the contaminated oil out of the cooling system. If I disconnect both lines from the radiator, and somehow apply air pressure to one side, will it force all the oil out? A second thought I had was to replace the oil in the crankcase (10 qts of total 17 qts in system), run the engine for a few minutes, and then drain and replace the crankcase oil again. Assuming a 50% fuel/oil ratio to begin with, this process would get the amount of fuel in the oil down to under a quart after two changes, and of course subsequent changes would lower it even further... would this be acceptable?

It would be good to try and blow the cooler out. Refill and take a oil sample.
Change oil again or send in the sample for analisys to see where the fuel contamination level is
Ken

 

[m610]

It would be good to try and blow the cooler out. Refill and take a oil sample.
Change oil again or send in the sample for analisys to see where the fuel contamination level is
Ken

My experience is that air pressure from a powerful compressor or repeated infusions of air from a smaller one will eventually remove the oil from the cooler. Draining the oil pan will get the rest of the oil, only leaving a miniscule amount in the oil pump and passages. No need to drain the oil for a while as a bit of diesel causes no real problems. You can test the old fuel lift pump by sticking hoses on it and trying to pump fuel from one container to the other by pushing the pump on a hard surface on its push rod and looking for leaks.

 

[westbrooklawn]

My experience is that air pressure from a powerful compressor or repeated infusions of air from a smaller one will eventually remove the oil from the cooler. Draining the oil pan will get the rest of the oil, only leaving a miniscule amount in the oil pump and passages. No need to drain the oil for a while as a bit of diesel causes no real problems. You can test the old fuel lift pump by sticking hoses on it and trying to pump fuel from one container to the other by pushing the pump on a hard surface on its push rod and looking for leaks.

Update - I installed the fuel pump... simple 5 minute job once I found out that a 3/8 socket would work on the torx head bolts (don't have any female torx sockets of my own). Drained about 20 qts of fluid out of the 17 qt. system, and replaced it with new oil. Have run it for about 2 hours, and checked the oil level and it is right where it should be. Hopefully it is fixed! Thanks to all for your help. Next project appears to be an actuator... the lift works fine sometimes, but is real slow at other times. I plan to switch actuator wires to verify the problem. Is the calibration of a new actuator something I can do?... any special tools required?