751 Engine removal

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Tazza

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Whats the easiest way to remove the engine in a 751?
I have read a few posts on east/west facing engines and people recommend pulling the pump and motor together. I can see only 2 of the mounting bolts, the other 2 are no doubt stuck behind the engine where i can't get access to them!. I really didn't want to pull the motor and pump if at all possible as i don't yet have a manual to show me how the hoses join back up and the path they took. The machine has been fire damaged and i didn't want to disturb any of the hoses too. I want the engine out so i can start it to ensure it actually works and i don't need to start looking for another engine!
A new thread with pictures will follow when i get hold of a camera, i will no doubt be harassing people for pictures of how things sit in their machines as the fire has eaten a few things, all of which are expensive to replace!
 

Fishfiles

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I just finished putting the motor back in an 853 that was rebuilt , and I pulled the pump with the motor , the hardest part of the job was the two forward bolts under the pump bracket , they go from the bottom up and you can't see the heads of the bolts , the bolts on the bell housing side have square nuts that jam in a slot and don't need to be held with a wrench , the other side has to be held , I have pulled the motor without the pump and would say it's alot harder , putting the bolts back in the bracket on the side the engine are rough to line up unless you pull the blower box
 

skidsteer.ca

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I just finished putting the motor back in an 853 that was rebuilt , and I pulled the pump with the motor , the hardest part of the job was the two forward bolts under the pump bracket , they go from the bottom up and you can't see the heads of the bolts , the bolts on the bell housing side have square nuts that jam in a slot and don't need to be held with a wrench , the other side has to be held , I have pulled the motor without the pump and would say it's alot harder , putting the bolts back in the bracket on the side the engine are rough to line up unless you pull the blower box
You can't just remove the drive belt and run it in the frame for a minute? The pumps wont have to run.
Ken
 
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Tazza

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You can't just remove the drive belt and run it in the frame for a minute? The pumps wont have to run.
Ken
I guess i could run it like that, the drive belt is burnt up but with the engine out i can at least remove the inlet manifold to be sure no junk is in there for the engine to snort up. It has to all come out eventually for me to remove all the burnt up plastic and rubber. I guess i will find out just how much of a nightmare it it to remove today. No doubt it will involve a lot of sweat and even more swearing. Hopefully it won't be too hard, but i will find out i guess.
The wiring is a bit of a worry, not sure how I'm going to be able sort that out yet.....
 
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Tazza

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I guess i could run it like that, the drive belt is burnt up but with the engine out i can at least remove the inlet manifold to be sure no junk is in there for the engine to snort up. It has to all come out eventually for me to remove all the burnt up plastic and rubber. I guess i will find out just how much of a nightmare it it to remove today. No doubt it will involve a lot of sweat and even more swearing. Hopefully it won't be too hard, but i will find out i guess.
The wiring is a bit of a worry, not sure how I'm going to be able sort that out yet.....
I ended up pulling engine and pump as one. I can't see any other way of doing it.
I now see why people don't want to mess with the fuel tank.... Its RITE under the engine, thankfully its one thing the fire did not touch. The engine and pump are sitting on a pallet ready for me to try and start when i change the timing belt. The old one has a spot the fire has touched and i don't want to risk damage if it was to snap. One plastic panel over the timing belt was eaten in the fire, the others are ok.
I will post pictures when i get a chance. Its one of those projects you feel why did i start this????
When i removed the rear door i saw it had a decal for the fuses and it showed a fuse for BOSS, i really hope it doesn't have it fitted! The wiring is all toast and i really have no idea how i'm going to re-wire it, even if i got a wiring harness it doesn't show what wire goes where. I guess thats a fun job for later!.
 

skidsteer.ca

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I ended up pulling engine and pump as one. I can't see any other way of doing it.
I now see why people don't want to mess with the fuel tank.... Its RITE under the engine, thankfully its one thing the fire did not touch. The engine and pump are sitting on a pallet ready for me to try and start when i change the timing belt. The old one has a spot the fire has touched and i don't want to risk damage if it was to snap. One plastic panel over the timing belt was eaten in the fire, the others are ok.
I will post pictures when i get a chance. Its one of those projects you feel why did i start this????
When i removed the rear door i saw it had a decal for the fuses and it showed a fuse for BOSS, i really hope it doesn't have it fitted! The wiring is all toast and i really have no idea how i'm going to re-wire it, even if i got a wiring harness it doesn't show what wire goes where. I guess thats a fun job for later!.
If it was a boss it should have a180 by180 by 50 mm tin box under the cab is the area behind the operators left shoulder (on a 753). Whole mess of wire hanging out of it. Also look for the metal remanents of the 3 60 mm auto guages to indicate the opposite. The fuse panel would likely have been the same for either.
As far as re wiring "as factory" I don't think its possible unless you buy all the damged harness, I think I'd try and find out what voltage the coils are for the aux hyd and duplicate it with resistors. The rest of the system should be straight forward enough.
Now would be a good time to pull the fuel tank, do the pickup, somtimes the guage sendors go bad to. I'd get my new fuel guage and test b4 putting the engine back in
Ken
 
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Tazza

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If it was a boss it should have a180 by180 by 50 mm tin box under the cab is the area behind the operators left shoulder (on a 753). Whole mess of wire hanging out of it. Also look for the metal remanents of the 3 60 mm auto guages to indicate the opposite. The fuse panel would likely have been the same for either.
As far as re wiring "as factory" I don't think its possible unless you buy all the damged harness, I think I'd try and find out what voltage the coils are for the aux hyd and duplicate it with resistors. The rest of the system should be straight forward enough.
Now would be a good time to pull the fuel tank, do the pickup, somtimes the guage sendors go bad to. I'd get my new fuel guage and test b4 putting the engine back in
Ken
All good points. I don't want to go through the exercise of removing the engine again just for small things like that. It does have the BICS box in the cab on the right, but there was no other box. The instrument panel is still intact. There was another metal box bolted to the frame on the left side just behind where the left steering stick is. This had a few wires going into it. It was silver (aluminum) with epoxy covering the components. It has the micro switches for the reverse beeper (not that its going to be needed. As for the aux coils, this will not be a problem, a simple voltage regulator can solve that if i can't get the wiring hooked up as factory. There are 3 coils, i just need to work out which 2 are aux and which is the main hydraulic lock out valve.
( note from Ken, Aux are the two on top of main control valve behind throtle lever)
It will all come in time, i will just have to work my way through it as i get time and when its not too hot. The first thing i need to do is check this engine out, hopefully some time next week i will have a new timing belt and i can start it up.
I did get an e-mail from a fellow in Victoria that has a few pieces i am going to need. I sent him a return e-mail and hopefully we can work something out. I will harass Mark for the remaining parts that will be needed. I think its going to be a long project but i had a look at the hydro motors, they are like 1.5 times larger than the ones my 743 has! I'm starting to consider fully re-building this one and flick my 743... But i think i would only ever do that if i put in a Kubota engine. I know a guy with a bunch on new V2203 engines, but i need to get a price on them first..... He has never been real cheap.
 

skidsteer.ca

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All good points. I don't want to go through the exercise of removing the engine again just for small things like that. It does have the BICS box in the cab on the right, but there was no other box. The instrument panel is still intact. There was another metal box bolted to the frame on the left side just behind where the left steering stick is. This had a few wires going into it. It was silver (aluminum) with epoxy covering the components. It has the micro switches for the reverse beeper (not that its going to be needed. As for the aux coils, this will not be a problem, a simple voltage regulator can solve that if i can't get the wiring hooked up as factory. There are 3 coils, i just need to work out which 2 are aux and which is the main hydraulic lock out valve.
( note from Ken, Aux are the two on top of main control valve behind throtle lever)
It will all come in time, i will just have to work my way through it as i get time and when its not too hot. The first thing i need to do is check this engine out, hopefully some time next week i will have a new timing belt and i can start it up.
I did get an e-mail from a fellow in Victoria that has a few pieces i am going to need. I sent him a return e-mail and hopefully we can work something out. I will harass Mark for the remaining parts that will be needed. I think its going to be a long project but i had a look at the hydro motors, they are like 1.5 times larger than the ones my 743 has! I'm starting to consider fully re-building this one and flick my 743... But i think i would only ever do that if i put in a Kubota engine. I know a guy with a bunch on new V2203 engines, but i need to get a price on them first..... He has never been real cheap.
They all have the BICS box from 94 up until the G series beside the seat. The aluminum (silver) box sounds like the aux hyd control box I thought I was having trouble with on my 853. It the one that makes the 2 green aux hyd mode lights blink when you have a problem. Other wise its a fancy voltage regulator from what I gather.
The electric park brake/pin would be wired the same as the fuel shut off solinoid. 1 ground and 2 hots, a momentary and a constant to hold it. Also very easy to defeat mechanically.
The hyd boom lock solinoid the bics controls can just to wired to the key to become hot when switching the key.
That leaves the aux hyd coils.
The rest, starter ,alternator, guages and lights is quite basic. Are your wire harness completely cooked or do they just need some wires soldered in in a few spots?
As for the Kubota conversion kit I wonder what it includes. I do remember a couple guys on here that were happy with there Peageot (spelling). I guess if it runs might as well drive it till it drops even if it is'nt a great motor.
Ken
 
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Tazza

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They all have the BICS box from 94 up until the G series beside the seat. The aluminum (silver) box sounds like the aux hyd control box I thought I was having trouble with on my 853. It the one that makes the 2 green aux hyd mode lights blink when you have a problem. Other wise its a fancy voltage regulator from what I gather.
The electric park brake/pin would be wired the same as the fuel shut off solinoid. 1 ground and 2 hots, a momentary and a constant to hold it. Also very easy to defeat mechanically.
The hyd boom lock solinoid the bics controls can just to wired to the key to become hot when switching the key.
That leaves the aux hyd coils.
The rest, starter ,alternator, guages and lights is quite basic. Are your wire harness completely cooked or do they just need some wires soldered in in a few spots?
As for the Kubota conversion kit I wonder what it includes. I do remember a couple guys on here that were happy with there Peageot (spelling). I guess if it runs might as well drive it till it drops even if it is'nt a great motor.
Ken
I was going to say i think it was an aux hydraulic controller but wasn't sure.
The harness is toast, i will be uploading pictures over the next few days. The damage isn't THAT bad but its bad enough.
 
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Tazza

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I was going to say i think it was an aux hydraulic controller but wasn't sure.
The harness is toast, i will be uploading pictures over the next few days. The damage isn't THAT bad but its bad enough.
Just a few piccies of what has been done, not a lot really but pictures of before and some of after i pulled most of the burnt *stuff* out. Filled 2x20 litre buckets with burnt rubber/plastic and oily muck.
Before: http://users.tpg.com.au/tazza_/751 Before/
After: http://users.tpg.com.au/tazza_/751 After/
Thats about all the progress for a little while i fear, i need to get this engine started to find out the condition then i can actually make some moves of re-installing the engine/pump and see if it will actually work. Then the fun of wiring, the wiring part may indeed send me crazy, but we shall see!.
Its another one of the projects that you wonder just how far to go, do i pull it rite down to clean and paint or just clean it and put back together to make sure it will work.....
Ken, you mentioned that you had a set of plugs to work on your machine. Does your hydrostatic pump run 4 ORFS fittings instead of the usual JIC ones? I pulled the fittings off and was surprised it actually had ORFS. I don't know if its factory or just something the previous owner put on for some reason.
 

skidsteer.ca

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Just a few piccies of what has been done, not a lot really but pictures of before and some of after i pulled most of the burnt *stuff* out. Filled 2x20 litre buckets with burnt rubber/plastic and oily muck.
Before: http://users.tpg.com.au/tazza_/751%20Before/
After: http://users.tpg.com.au/tazza_/751%20After/
Thats about all the progress for a little while i fear, i need to get this engine started to find out the condition then i can actually make some moves of re-installing the engine/pump and see if it will actually work. Then the fun of wiring, the wiring part may indeed send me crazy, but we shall see!.
Its another one of the projects that you wonder just how far to go, do i pull it rite down to clean and paint or just clean it and put back together to make sure it will work.....
Ken, you mentioned that you had a set of plugs to work on your machine. Does your hydrostatic pump run 4 ORFS fittings instead of the usual JIC ones? I pulled the fittings off and was surprised it actually had ORFS. I don't know if its factory or just something the previous owner put on for some reason.
Tazza
What you refer to as orfs must be what we call orb or O Ring Boss?
Uses the same thread as JIC but has no taper. Instead it seals against a oring at the base (near center of fitting) of the threads. Many of the straight jic fittings can have a oring installed on them and used as a orb, including the plugs.
The 90 and 45 degree orbs have a jamb nut against the o ring so you can have the fitting tight and pointing in any dirrection you like (unlike taped pipe thread/NPT or JIC) You often see orb here on pumps and valve.
My 2000 model 773 has some jic fitting with a o ring cut in the tapered seal area. Not sure the term or name used for these.
Also Deere over here uses a flat ended fitting with a oring groove machined in the flat end. If you own deere anything you will buy o rings in bulk. Does your acronym refer to O Ring Face Seal? If thats what you have, I don't think Bobcat used that here.
Ken
 

skidsteer.ca

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Tazza
What you refer to as orfs must be what we call orb or O Ring Boss?
Uses the same thread as JIC but has no taper. Instead it seals against a oring at the base (near center of fitting) of the threads. Many of the straight jic fittings can have a oring installed on them and used as a orb, including the plugs.
The 90 and 45 degree orbs have a jamb nut against the o ring so you can have the fitting tight and pointing in any dirrection you like (unlike taped pipe thread/NPT or JIC) You often see orb here on pumps and valve.
My 2000 model 773 has some jic fitting with a o ring cut in the tapered seal area. Not sure the term or name used for these.
Also Deere over here uses a flat ended fitting with a oring groove machined in the flat end. If you own deere anything you will buy o rings in bulk. Does your acronym refer to O Ring Face Seal? If thats what you have, I don't think Bobcat used that here.
Ken
I just went through the pics, what a mess!! Wonder IF I can talk my wife into packing up 3 kids for a Bobcat restoration trip down under. LOL. The h$ll with laying on the beach.
At least there would be no complaints about the -20 and -30 weather we have been getting.
Man I'd like to be there with the spare time I had 15 years ago.
I fire must have been put out? Hyd tank is gone but it does'nt look like it burned down by the pumps much. I'd have thought when the resevoir went thing would have really been cooked.
Kubota engines have the pto belt to the pumps on the opposite end, it must be a farely extensive kit to flip everything around. Isuzu is to the right in my 853.
I can't figure for the life of me why they "need" so many wires.
Does you fan drive gear box look ok and just require a new blower?
Rad and mayby the oil cooler must have got pretty hot. I have seen pics that look alot worse (whole interior gutted) but there is a pile of plumbing and wiring ahead. Do they pumps look ok?
Ken
 
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Tazza

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I just went through the pics, what a mess!! Wonder IF I can talk my wife into packing up 3 kids for a Bobcat restoration trip down under. LOL. The h$ll with laying on the beach.
At least there would be no complaints about the -20 and -30 weather we have been getting.
Man I'd like to be there with the spare time I had 15 years ago.
I fire must have been put out? Hyd tank is gone but it does'nt look like it burned down by the pumps much. I'd have thought when the resevoir went thing would have really been cooked.
Kubota engines have the pto belt to the pumps on the opposite end, it must be a farely extensive kit to flip everything around. Isuzu is to the right in my 853.
I can't figure for the life of me why they "need" so many wires.
Does you fan drive gear box look ok and just require a new blower?
Rad and mayby the oil cooler must have got pretty hot. I have seen pics that look alot worse (whole interior gutted) but there is a pile of plumbing and wiring ahead. Do they pumps look ok?
Ken
Well the temperature is in the +30 range, you are more than welcome to visit :)
The pumps seem to have only been touched with melted and burnt plastic/rubber. I didn't see any powder from an extinguisher, but you never know! I never thought about engine orientation but yeah, the fly wheel is on the other side on the Kubotas.
The blower has melted all the plastic, i removed the fan with a bit of effort. The housing still looks ok for the gearbox but the bearings do need replacing. I think i can get it back to life again. I just need a new fan and housing. The idler has been melted but i can make one of these easy enough.
The hydrostats did worry me when i inspected it, the levers would not budge, this turned out to be a big blow of plastic that was on the pump causing it to be stuck in centre, so it would not move either way.
Its a dirty dirty job! not something anyone really wants to do. With a bit of luck the machine will turn out pretty well in the end. *crosses fingers*
 
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Tazza

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Well the temperature is in the +30 range, you are more than welcome to visit :)
The pumps seem to have only been touched with melted and burnt plastic/rubber. I didn't see any powder from an extinguisher, but you never know! I never thought about engine orientation but yeah, the fly wheel is on the other side on the Kubotas.
The blower has melted all the plastic, i removed the fan with a bit of effort. The housing still looks ok for the gearbox but the bearings do need replacing. I think i can get it back to life again. I just need a new fan and housing. The idler has been melted but i can make one of these easy enough.
The hydrostats did worry me when i inspected it, the levers would not budge, this turned out to be a big blow of plastic that was on the pump causing it to be stuck in centre, so it would not move either way.
Its a dirty dirty job! not something anyone really wants to do. With a bit of luck the machine will turn out pretty well in the end. *crosses fingers*
Sorry Ken, i forgot about the fitting bit.
The flat faced ones with an O-ring groove cut in the face we call ORFS (O-Ring Face Seal). From what i hear they have a reputation for being the best hydraulic seal on the market as they do not leak. They have an O-ring to create the seal not just metal on metal like standard JIC. This is all from what i have been told, so i can't say its true or not but all the gear my dad fits hose burst systems to use ORFS, the company that builds the machines swear by them.
As for JIC with an O-Ring, i have never seen that type, but i can imagine it will provide a better seal than standard JIC. Thats the worst thing about JIC, you have to tighten it up so tight for it not to leak. I find that a lot of times i need a bar on each spanner to get the rotten things to crack!
 

skidsteer.ca

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Sorry Ken, i forgot about the fitting bit.
The flat faced ones with an O-ring groove cut in the face we call ORFS (O-Ring Face Seal). From what i hear they have a reputation for being the best hydraulic seal on the market as they do not leak. They have an O-ring to create the seal not just metal on metal like standard JIC. This is all from what i have been told, so i can't say its true or not but all the gear my dad fits hose burst systems to use ORFS, the company that builds the machines swear by them.
As for JIC with an O-Ring, i have never seen that type, but i can imagine it will provide a better seal than standard JIC. Thats the worst thing about JIC, you have to tighten it up so tight for it not to leak. I find that a lot of times i need a bar on each spanner to get the rotten things to crack!
The big advantage to the orb is that the fitting can be tight pointing in any direction.
For stuborn jic females put a dolly (any weight) behind the nut a give the other side a few sharp cracks with a hammer to shock the nut. They will come loose with 1/2 the torq
Ken
 

Fishfiles

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The big advantage to the orb is that the fitting can be tight pointing in any direction.
For stuborn jic females put a dolly (any weight) behind the nut a give the other side a few sharp cracks with a hammer to shock the nut. They will come loose with 1/2 the torq
Ken
The JIC fitting with a straight pipe thread boss oring is what I think you are calling the orb (oring boss) , don't know what they call them but the Jic fitting with the o-ring in the flare tip has been a nightmare for me , only a few years of machines had them , I think it was a two year span , the o-rings are very expensive and the local seal supply gave up trying to get them for me , the small number 6 (3/8) size is like a $1.60 each from the dealer =--------the one I hate the most are excavators swivels with that fitting , they are a pain to change the swivel hoses , it's hard enough getting some of those hoses out and then you have to be careful to not knock the ring out , to me that was a flawed design , the ORS ( oring seal )is a better set up , have seen those hand tight and not leak under full system pressure , they are easier to get the threads started in tight places , one draw back is they will rust around the ferrel nut and the whole hose wants to turn when the nut is wrenched , what I been doing for those when in really tight spots where you can't spin the hose is to use an air saw or grinder and cut the hole off which makes it easy to unscrew the ferrel nut ,the Catapilliar ORS uses a sealing ring unique to Cat ------a quick story on ORS fittings , I unscewed the ferrel nut completely and it was 3/4" away from the threads , the fitting was stuck together at the flat faces , probally some rust , I couldn't break it off with my hand and took the wrench and hit it twice , the second hit it broke free and soaked me with oil , amazing that it held pressure with no nut , thought me to always loosen the nut then hit the fitting at the hose to make sure all pressure is off
 

Fishfiles

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The JIC fitting with a straight pipe thread boss oring is what I think you are calling the orb (oring boss) , don't know what they call them but the Jic fitting with the o-ring in the flare tip has been a nightmare for me , only a few years of machines had them , I think it was a two year span , the o-rings are very expensive and the local seal supply gave up trying to get them for me , the small number 6 (3/8) size is like a $1.60 each from the dealer =--------the one I hate the most are excavators swivels with that fitting , they are a pain to change the swivel hoses , it's hard enough getting some of those hoses out and then you have to be careful to not knock the ring out , to me that was a flawed design , the ORS ( oring seal )is a better set up , have seen those hand tight and not leak under full system pressure , they are easier to get the threads started in tight places , one draw back is they will rust around the ferrel nut and the whole hose wants to turn when the nut is wrenched , what I been doing for those when in really tight spots where you can't spin the hose is to use an air saw or grinder and cut the hole off which makes it easy to unscrew the ferrel nut ,the Catapilliar ORS uses a sealing ring unique to Cat ------a quick story on ORS fittings , I unscewed the ferrel nut completely and it was 3/4" away from the threads , the fitting was stuck together at the flat faces , probally some rust , I couldn't break it off with my hand and took the wrench and hit it twice , the second hit it broke free and soaked me with oil , amazing that it held pressure with no nut , thought me to always loosen the nut then hit the fitting at the hose to make sure all pressure is off
Tazza , I wanted to suggest to you on your fire job a way to clean up the metal for paint , I recently got a sand injector for a pressure washer , and it works really well , did some painting this evening on some pieces I brought down to bare metal fast , using it on a 2500psi 4gpm washer , tried coarse and fine blasting sand and works with both , someone had told me they used play sand , which I tried but found the stuff I got was too moist and didn't flow well , letting the play sand dry out and will try it again , --------the ones from Northern and Harbor work as a friend has one but pay a lot more and get a better one , I paid $200 and then found the same one on the net for $110 , it's important to match the tip to the psi and flow of the washer to get best results , no dust to deal with but it does eat up the sand fast
 
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Tazza

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Tazza , I wanted to suggest to you on your fire job a way to clean up the metal for paint , I recently got a sand injector for a pressure washer , and it works really well , did some painting this evening on some pieces I brought down to bare metal fast , using it on a 2500psi 4gpm washer , tried coarse and fine blasting sand and works with both , someone had told me they used play sand , which I tried but found the stuff I got was too moist and didn't flow well , letting the play sand dry out and will try it again , --------the ones from Northern and Harbor work as a friend has one but pay a lot more and get a better one , I paid $200 and then found the same one on the net for $110 , it's important to match the tip to the psi and flow of the washer to get best results , no dust to deal with but it does eat up the sand fast
Very interesting..... I have a portable sandblaster thats basically a spray gun with a metal nozzle. It too eats up sand fast, the only problem is the sand it hard to get these days and you aren't supposed to use normal dry beach sand because of the silica. I usually hit the machines with a wire buffing wheel to get rid of rust/loose paint. I'm seriously thinking of keeping this machine so i will probably pull it rite down and re-paint it. I'm just working on parts, there is a guy down south with a few parts that we need to chat about. Hopefully something can be arranged to get it all working again!
My pressure washer is only 1,500 psi or so, not sure on GPM.
With that said, i still can't get my rotten deterent adder thingo working on it, what chance do i have with sand injecting :)
 

Butters

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Very interesting..... I have a portable sandblaster thats basically a spray gun with a metal nozzle. It too eats up sand fast, the only problem is the sand it hard to get these days and you aren't supposed to use normal dry beach sand because of the silica. I usually hit the machines with a wire buffing wheel to get rid of rust/loose paint. I'm seriously thinking of keeping this machine so i will probably pull it rite down and re-paint it. I'm just working on parts, there is a guy down south with a few parts that we need to chat about. Hopefully something can be arranged to get it all working again!
My pressure washer is only 1,500 psi or so, not sure on GPM.
With that said, i still can't get my rotten deterent adder thingo working on it, what chance do i have with sand injecting :)
How is your 751 project going?
 
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