732 rough running, backfiring

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OldMachinist

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Good point about the vacuum hose Jerry.
I have the Ford 1.6 in the 632, and I will assume they didnt change the firing order or cylinder numbering between models. I thought as well that number one was on the front on mine, and I tried to install new plug wires. Never did start. Finally looked at my manual and figured out number one was at the back. Fired up first try after that correction. It would explain the timing marks being so far off. Hook the timing light up to the front cylinder, remove and plug the vacuum hose and check timing at idle. If it is still way off, hook the light up to the rear cylinder. It is a Ford after all, I guess they could have made them different.
If you got ahold of a pressure gauge, no need to remove the hose while its runing, just tee into the line and check fuel pressure when its acting up. If theres a problem, itll have almost zero pressure, otherwise I think the spec it 4-5 psi..
Ford timing procedure and firing order.
 photo Ford_timing_zpsd2e0a88d.jpg
 

Hotrod1830

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Ford timing procedure and firing order.
Wouldnt ya know it.
Old machinst, you wouldnt happen to have that page for a 632 would you? Mine doesnt have any numbers on the cylinders or distributor cap, and where it lists firing order below it, it says 1-2-3-4, but in the specs page, it lists firing order as 1243. Thats where I got my cylinder numbering. Mine shouldnt run the way it does if I got the cylinder numbering that far off. But I better check....
 

OldMachinist

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Wouldnt ya know it.
Old machinst, you wouldnt happen to have that page for a 632 would you? Mine doesnt have any numbers on the cylinders or distributor cap, and where it lists firing order below it, it says 1-2-3-4, but in the specs page, it lists firing order as 1243. Thats where I got my cylinder numbering. Mine shouldnt run the way it does if I got the cylinder numbering that far off. But I better check....
I just looked at the 632 service manual and 1234 is a typo.
 

Hotrod1830

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I just looked at the 632 service manual and 1234 is a typo.
Heres a brain twister for ya. I ended up with the plug wires on correctly. Didnt have to change 1 wire and have the correct firing order and cylinder numbering. My brain hurts.....
To the Op, on behalf of myself and the poeple that wrote my service manual, I apologize if I steered you in the wrong direction.
 

OldMachinist

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Heres a brain twister for ya. I ended up with the plug wires on correctly. Didnt have to change 1 wire and have the correct firing order and cylinder numbering. My brain hurts.....
To the Op, on behalf of myself and the poeple that wrote my service manual, I apologize if I steered you in the wrong direction.
If you write the firing order out twice 12431243 and then pull the middle four numbers out 4312 you see why using #4 to time the engine works. Even if you thought the cylinder numbering starts from the rear of the engine it still works. You may have to draw that out on paper to see it.
 
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GILL

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If you write the firing order out twice 12431243 and then pull the middle four numbers out 4312 you see why using #4 to time the engine works. Even if you thought the cylinder numbering starts from the rear of the engine it still works. You may have to draw that out on paper to see it.
Hotrod and Old Machinist, I have the same page in my manual like OM is showing. I did try the other end of cylinder and it didn't change much. Problem now is getting machine to run long enough to actually check the timing. Here's what I've done so far today. I replaced hose from fuel pump to carb with longer one and ran it to plastic coffee can. I pulled coil wire and turned on switch to activate solenoids. I used remote switch to turn motor over. According to a mechanic friend it should pump a steady rhythmic flow of fuel and get a fair amount of fuel to can in 30 seconds. It was weak at first for 5-6 secs and then picked up just like he said and I ended up with 1-1/2" of gas in can. I then submerged hose to see if any bubbles of air. There was none. I forgot to check pressure but will do so yet this afternoon. I will have to do so with just turning over engine remotely. Book says 3.5 to 5#'s of pressure. I plan on pulling carb off to make sure it's clean too. I also pulled coil wire from distributor and kept it 3/16 from head to check it. It will maintain 3/16 to 1/4 spark easily. The spark is yellow though. Not sure what it should be. I'll get back to you Thanks Greg
 
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GILL

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Hotrod and Old Machinist, I have the same page in my manual like OM is showing. I did try the other end of cylinder and it didn't change much. Problem now is getting machine to run long enough to actually check the timing. Here's what I've done so far today. I replaced hose from fuel pump to carb with longer one and ran it to plastic coffee can. I pulled coil wire and turned on switch to activate solenoids. I used remote switch to turn motor over. According to a mechanic friend it should pump a steady rhythmic flow of fuel and get a fair amount of fuel to can in 30 seconds. It was weak at first for 5-6 secs and then picked up just like he said and I ended up with 1-1/2" of gas in can. I then submerged hose to see if any bubbles of air. There was none. I forgot to check pressure but will do so yet this afternoon. I will have to do so with just turning over engine remotely. Book says 3.5 to 5#'s of pressure. I plan on pulling carb off to make sure it's clean too. I also pulled coil wire from distributor and kept it 3/16 from head to check it. It will maintain 3/16 to 1/4 spark easily. The spark is yellow though. Not sure what it should be. I'll get back to you Thanks Greg
Well the pump pressure seems about 3#. I could not get the engine to run to try pressure that way. I pulled off the carb and could not find any noticeable problems. No dirt inside, needle and seat look good to my eye. I went ahead and used carb cleaner and compressed air on passages. Now I will need to find a gasket. I'll try NAPA Monday. I also used a battery charger to activate the solenoid in carb. Seems fine to me. I will need to check to see if connection to solenoid is hot with key on. That's all I got for now. Greg
 

jerry

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Well the pump pressure seems about 3#. I could not get the engine to run to try pressure that way. I pulled off the carb and could not find any noticeable problems. No dirt inside, needle and seat look good to my eye. I went ahead and used carb cleaner and compressed air on passages. Now I will need to find a gasket. I'll try NAPA Monday. I also used a battery charger to activate the solenoid in carb. Seems fine to me. I will need to check to see if connection to solenoid is hot with key on. That's all I got for now. Greg
have you taken the valve cover off to make sure there are no broken springs or things like that? Then you could find tdc by feeling with a wire in the spark plug hole on the cyl closest to the damper pulley which should be number one . Then mark the outside of the distributor where #1 wire enters and take the cap off to see where the rotor is. If its not lined up rotate the distributor till it is and that should get you close enough that it will run as far as timing.
 

jerry

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have you taken the valve cover off to make sure there are no broken springs or things like that? Then you could find tdc by feeling with a wire in the spark plug hole on the cyl closest to the damper pulley which should be number one . Then mark the outside of the distributor where #1 wire enters and take the cap off to see where the rotor is. If its not lined up rotate the distributor till it is and that should get you close enough that it will run as far as timing.
I see by your post on the 18th that you had it running though. Maybe just go down to napa and get a electric fuel pump and try it. I dont think they are to expensive.
 

OldMachinist

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I see by your post on the 18th that you had it running though. Maybe just go down to napa and get a electric fuel pump and try it. I dont think they are to expensive.
Have you checked if fuel will flow freely from the tank? Could be crud in the bottom of the tank or in the shut off valve. The tank is mounted high enough that it should gravity feed enough fuel to stay running at idle.
 

Hotrod1830

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Have you checked if fuel will flow freely from the tank? Could be crud in the bottom of the tank or in the shut off valve. The tank is mounted high enough that it should gravity feed enough fuel to stay running at idle.
Agree with OM. Pull the fuel line off the pump from the tank and turn the key on, fuel should begin to run out. If NAPA doesnt have a gasket for it, they can sell you a roll of paper gasket material, and just make it. I always have a roll handy. When you get the carb back on and if it still doesnt start, shoot a little carb cleaner in the intake. If its fuel related, it will run for a few seconds and die. If it doesnt, look elsewhere. Have you ran a compression test yet? Vacuum gauge on the engine while running? Checked for vacuum leaks around the carb and intake by spraying carb cleaner around them while its running? Checked valve adjustment?
 
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GILL

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Agree with OM. Pull the fuel line off the pump from the tank and turn the key on, fuel should begin to run out. If NAPA doesnt have a gasket for it, they can sell you a roll of paper gasket material, and just make it. I always have a roll handy. When you get the carb back on and if it still doesnt start, shoot a little carb cleaner in the intake. If its fuel related, it will run for a few seconds and die. If it doesnt, look elsewhere. Have you ran a compression test yet? Vacuum gauge on the engine while running? Checked for vacuum leaks around the carb and intake by spraying carb cleaner around them while its running? Checked valve adjustment?
I have not checked for fuel ahead of pump since it pumped fuel while turning it over easily enough with switch on. Fuel seemed to run through pump when key was on, and motor not being turned over, enough to keep end of hose in can. I did find the carb was a little loose where it attached to manifold and I tightened it up the other day. I have not checked for vacuum while engine is running, it usually won't run long enough to get everything hooked up. The funny thing is it started easily after sitting since Wednesday night but after a minute or so it just acts like it's out of gas. I thought of pulling tank and trying to see inside but, I'm not sure that you can. I'll have to look again in the book to see it that's possible. I have not looked at valve adjustment. Not sure I want to go there. I'll keep trying, Greg
 
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GILL

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I have not checked for fuel ahead of pump since it pumped fuel while turning it over easily enough with switch on. Fuel seemed to run through pump when key was on, and motor not being turned over, enough to keep end of hose in can. I did find the carb was a little loose where it attached to manifold and I tightened it up the other day. I have not checked for vacuum while engine is running, it usually won't run long enough to get everything hooked up. The funny thing is it started easily after sitting since Wednesday night but after a minute or so it just acts like it's out of gas. I thought of pulling tank and trying to see inside but, I'm not sure that you can. I'll have to look again in the book to see it that's possible. I have not looked at valve adjustment. Not sure I want to go there. I'll keep trying, Greg
I have now drained the fuel tank by letting fuel run out of hose that is before fuel pump. If you turn on switch the fuel runs out unobstructed. I took top off of fuel pump and it seems fine by me and a NAPA guy. It's been reinstalled. The little filter that is inside pump only had a few specks on it. The pump arm was fine and I turned engine over while keeping my finger on the lobe that drives the pump. There was no groove or flat spots or burrs felt. I've also turned the timing mark to TDC and the rotor points at #1 cylinder. The lawn and garden store next to NAPA is getting me a gasket kit from the outfit that makes the carb rebuild kit. While waiting for it I will pull the tank and see if it needs cleaning. I also pulled the seat and pan to see if there was a wire rubbing on something that would ground out the fuel solenoids. I'll post more when I know more. Greg
 

jerry

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I have now drained the fuel tank by letting fuel run out of hose that is before fuel pump. If you turn on switch the fuel runs out unobstructed. I took top off of fuel pump and it seems fine by me and a NAPA guy. It's been reinstalled. The little filter that is inside pump only had a few specks on it. The pump arm was fine and I turned engine over while keeping my finger on the lobe that drives the pump. There was no groove or flat spots or burrs felt. I've also turned the timing mark to TDC and the rotor points at #1 cylinder. The lawn and garden store next to NAPA is getting me a gasket kit from the outfit that makes the carb rebuild kit. While waiting for it I will pull the tank and see if it needs cleaning. I also pulled the seat and pan to see if there was a wire rubbing on something that would ground out the fuel solenoids. I'll post more when I know more. Greg
Recently I read a post about a ford 1.6 similar to your problem and the guy said it ended up being the timing chain had developed slack in it due to a problem with the tensioner so if fuel and ignition check out I would think the valve train and timing chain might be next to check.When my 632 developed problems like this I replaced the fuel pump and cleaned the whole fuel system to no avail. It was the point mounting plate that was shifting , I think it was just loose.
 
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GILL

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Recently I read a post about a ford 1.6 similar to your problem and the guy said it ended up being the timing chain had developed slack in it due to a problem with the tensioner so if fuel and ignition check out I would think the valve train and timing chain might be next to check.When my 632 developed problems like this I replaced the fuel pump and cleaned the whole fuel system to no avail. It was the point mounting plate that was shifting , I think it was just loose.
Jerry, I'll look into the points plate shifting thing next. Still waiting on gaskets for carb and in the meantime I've cleaned out gas tank. I did not see much that would matter but, it's clean as can be and I will install today. I'm going to have to get a gasket for the fuel sender next. Probably just make one. Anybody know what the sending unit should look like? It appears complete and rotates just doesn't work. I need a photo to be sure it has all the wiring that it needs. I don't think this is something I can get at NAPA. Be interested to see if anyone else has had any experience with them. Thanks Greg
 
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GILL

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Jerry, I'll look into the points plate shifting thing next. Still waiting on gaskets for carb and in the meantime I've cleaned out gas tank. I did not see much that would matter but, it's clean as can be and I will install today. I'm going to have to get a gasket for the fuel sender next. Probably just make one. Anybody know what the sending unit should look like? It appears complete and rotates just doesn't work. I need a photo to be sure it has all the wiring that it needs. I don't think this is something I can get at NAPA. Be interested to see if anyone else has had any experience with them. Thanks Greg
Not much progress being made just yet. I have reinstalled fuel tank, re-assembled carb and installed to engine. If I use ether the engine will attempt to start but not run. I've added a tee to fuel line between pump and carb for checking pressure. It has fuel at tee, I've seen to that. Next I'll check and make sure each plug wire is on correctly and check the point gap again. I will also pull plugs and see if getting fuel or not. If something doesn't work out soon I'll just have to get a mechanic to look at it. Any reason to think a diesel unit would be less trouble? Greg
 

Tazza

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Not much progress being made just yet. I have reinstalled fuel tank, re-assembled carb and installed to engine. If I use ether the engine will attempt to start but not run. I've added a tee to fuel line between pump and carb for checking pressure. It has fuel at tee, I've seen to that. Next I'll check and make sure each plug wire is on correctly and check the point gap again. I will also pull plugs and see if getting fuel or not. If something doesn't work out soon I'll just have to get a mechanic to look at it. Any reason to think a diesel unit would be less trouble? Greg
I don't have much experience with petrol engines with more than one cylinder i'm afraid. How is the compression? if it tries to start on ether, i'd think the timing has to be rite or close, but the compression may be too low for it to catch.
Diesels are easier because you only need fuel and compression, no spark is needed. If the timing is rite, you have compression and fuel, they go.
 
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GILL

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I don't have much experience with petrol engines with more than one cylinder i'm afraid. How is the compression? if it tries to start on ether, i'd think the timing has to be rite or close, but the compression may be too low for it to catch.
Diesels are easier because you only need fuel and compression, no spark is needed. If the timing is rite, you have compression and fuel, they go.
Tazza, I know how you feel I'm o.k. with one or two cylinders, past that it gets sketchy. I remembered tonight to plug in wire to carb solenoid. Whoops! Then it started and ran ok for a while. Before that I set the timing mark at TDC and checked to be sure rotor was pointing at correct cylinder. pulled plugs to check for spark and adjusted distributor a little. At least it did run and for that I'm relieved. I'm going to hire a friend to give me a hand with setting valves, etc. That way I can see if that's a contributing factor. The reason I asked about a diesel is I'm looking around for maybe a 743. Same size as the 732 but a Kubota. Thanks Greg
 

Tazza

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Tazza, I know how you feel I'm o.k. with one or two cylinders, past that it gets sketchy. I remembered tonight to plug in wire to carb solenoid. Whoops! Then it started and ran ok for a while. Before that I set the timing mark at TDC and checked to be sure rotor was pointing at correct cylinder. pulled plugs to check for spark and adjusted distributor a little. At least it did run and for that I'm relieved. I'm going to hire a friend to give me a hand with setting valves, etc. That way I can see if that's a contributing factor. The reason I asked about a diesel is I'm looking around for maybe a 743. Same size as the 732 but a Kubota. Thanks Greg
I have owned a few 743 machines, the Kubota engines are very good, just don't get them hot or you will crack the head.
Good luck getting your mate to get the valves and timing rite. It sure is the same as a 743, just a few years newer and with a diesel engine.
 
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GILL

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I have owned a few 743 machines, the Kubota engines are very good, just don't get them hot or you will crack the head.
Good luck getting your mate to get the valves and timing rite. It sure is the same as a 743, just a few years newer and with a diesel engine.
Could someone with the Ford engine take a look at the pulley on the end of the crank? My book says there is three marks to use when setting the timing. My pulley only has one saw cut on it and I'm questioning if it's even right. The cover for the timing chain has three marks and I believe they are correct but, things aren't making sense to me when trying to set the timing up with out running the engine. My mechanic friend is supposed to stop by Wednesday night and I'm trying to eliminate as many possible problems as I can. Does anyone else have only one mark on their pulley? Thanks Greg
 
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