Hey guys, newbie to the site!!! glad I found it though!. My Dad decided several months ago to purchase a JD 125 - originally with a 4cyl gas but replaed with what the "seller" called a 40 hp isuzu diesel, I call it a cobbled mess!! He claimed that it spun a bearing on the hydrolic pump and sold it to my dad hook line and sinker.. anyway, we got it home took it all apart rebuilt the hydro pumps and had a new weld put on the shaft attaching to the flywheel. Yesterday we got it all back together and were ready to hook up the battery (brand new). It sparked on the neg terminal and discharged it to 50% capacity. I attempted to charge it up but noticed that it would only get to 8.4 volts making me suspect that something is either drawing off it or that we have a short somewhere. The neutral start switches are (and were) bypassed and the starter is hook directly to the battery. picture this: positive wire directly to the starter, cable from starter to seleniod (from same terminal as the positive) on the selenoid there is a wire from the alternator that is connected to the same terminal as the posi from the starter: could the glow plugs or something else be pulling power constant from the battery because of the cable from the starter?
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That sounds pretty normal to me. Just how fast did it discharge? it could be a stuck glow solenoid. There is nothing there that i know of that could put that much of a drain on your battery without hearing or smelling it.
Some times when people replace or re-wire the alternator they attach 12v direct to the rotor which will drain the battery if left over night. Its normal for the main power to go from the battery to the starter then wires to the alternator, dash, starting and glow solenoids.
Some times when people replace or re-wire the alternator they attach 12v direct to the rotor which will drain the battery if left over night. Its normal for the main power to go from the battery to the starter then wires to the alternator, dash, starting and glow solenoids.
it discharged immediatly. something changed between getting it home and yesterday with the wiring. it started when we got it home but with no hydrolics - well, you know. I have to go back over there today and check to see if I nicked a wire or whatever...
For it to discharge that fast i'd suspect a bad battery? There is no way it should drop its charge that fast. Over a few hours or over night sure but not straight away.
Thats what I thought too, but the battery was litterally brand new - not saying that it might not be bad. I took that battery off as it was only charging to 8.4 volts and not beyond, internal short. Hooked up a different battery (full charge) and when I tapped the starter it drained the batt to 60%. I ended up taking the starter off the machine - serious pain in the ***, benched it and its fried! The thing now is that when the bendix would throw, it wouldnt even so much as move the main flywheel. could be that the starter was so bad that it too would short out immediatly which was draining the battery.??? I am going to see now if I can move the flywheel by hand by turning the cam shaft at the rear of the motor....maybe try that tomorrow... there are no safetys to speak of on this thing either that would be holding it out or locking up the flywheel to the hydrolics, so I am sort of drawing at straws and playing the process of elimination game. any thoughts would be great
skidsteer.ca
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To kill a good battery right now would result in some serious arc welding, no way that happen. Battery cables would be melting sparks flying, you'd know all about it.
Bad starters can draw tremendous amounts of current, but a new battery should still have several tries in it before its down to 8 volts
If the starter is fried then no matter how good your battery is it is not going to turn over.
Can you get a socket on the crankshaft to verify the motor will turn over? 2 complete revolutions incase there is valve train problems. Hopefully the spun bearing is not in the motor resulting in it being seized. If you can turn the motor by hand, then ix the starter and check for draws while conecting the battery cables. Any sparks there when the key is off is a bad sign.
The glow plugs would not stay stuck on do to a bad solinoid for vary long and they would all burn themselves out as they are designed to glow for @ 20 seconds at a time.
Isolate the various parts of the elecrical system to narrow down where the culprit is. As the starter is bad you may already have your answer.
Ken
I had a similar thing happen this fall, I went to start the bobcat and it turned over half a dozen times and quit so I assumed the battery was dead and hooked up the booster cables. In a very short time I had smoke coming out of the starter. When the voltage dropped the solenoid stuck in and drained the rest of the battery through the starter and then I came along with the booster and gave it some more. I now have a new starter and a shutoff on the pos post of the battery. By the way Tazza the 632 that was noisy even after I worked on the hydro pumps this summer is quiet now, I had to leave it sit for six weeks and during that time I think the air must have finally came out of the oil. Works good now, thanks for the help on that. jerry
I just purchased a 70's 170, which I think is about the same machine. It is also repowered with and Isuzu diesel. The wiring was such a mess I just started over. I ripped out all the wiring and started from scratch. Now I know everthing is new, and it will be much easier to troubleshoot in the future.
OK, here is were I am at with this thing. new starter in, new battery - good 14 volts and ZING she started to crank but wont fire. while trying to get it started I noticed that the machine actually shook. I tried it again and noticed that the right side was trying to walk backwards and I could feel the hydrolic pumps ingaged in the "T" handle. We blocked the machine up off the wheels and sure enough, the right side has some creeping going on. It still wouldnt start, but as I was driving home I realized that maybe I needed to dump some diesel in the fuel filter to help pressurize the line - I heard that somewhere..??? 2COR517 - on ours the "nuetral start switches" are bypassed and could be causing us some issue. This is the way it was when we got it but after looking at the diagram it looks like the wires come from the ignition, to the left NSS, jumped to the right NSS, then back to the start switch on the starter. Dont know if you have that set up or not but if anyone can tell me if that is the way the wires go I would appreciate it!!! now that we have it blocked up in the air, I think that adjusting the pumps to nuetral should be fairly easy.. Any thoughts on that??? Gosh I am glad I found you guys!
My machine does not have any safety switches or lockouts. It is also mechanical drive. When I start it, I have quite a bit of hardware turning over. Have you had this machine running yet? Mine does not start easy, but does run well. It takes a fair amount of glowplug usage. My amp draw for the glow plugs is about 30 amps. I have not tested each plug individually yet, that's one of my things to do. You may need to flush and bleed the fuel system if it hasn't run in a long while.
when we brought it home it did turn over and start but since we have taken the hydrolic pumps off, rebuilt and replace the whole sha-bang. I asked around a little and it seems that we do have to pressurize the fuel line prior to it starting. Its direct drive so I would assume that we should feel some vibrations, but not actual movement of the wheels and the "stick", at least I wouldnt think so. The whole electrical system runs through a 40 self reset breaker too. when we do get it running, how should I proceed with bleeding the hydrolic lines - any thoughts?
skidsteer.ca
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Hyd lines will bleed themselves over a short period of time usually. Boom up then down, bucket dump then curl, a few cycles then shutdown and let the bubbles in the hyd reservoir rise up to the top.
The fuel system, if it has air in it do to leaks in hoses etc or if you open up the filters will cause no starts. Not familiar with that engine and some motors pick their fuel up pretty good others require a extensive bleeding procedures. (most are not too bad)
If you put on a new filter, open the bleed screws (usually on the filter and or injection pump) and there should be a primer or lift pump system to prime the fuel up to the injection pump. If there is no lift pump install a primer bulb (outboard motor/boat style) in the fuel line. Or connect the engine to a fuel can on the roof and start a syphon to aid in bleeding the system.
I try to avoid opening the fuel filters unless I'm prepared to change it and restart the engine while its still warm to conserve the battery power. But its not absolutely necessary to do it that way it just helps.
Any loads the hydro drives place on the engine while trying to start won't help. but with the wheels up you should be able to get it to go
Ken
The fuel can on the roof is a good idea. I did that when I replaced my fuel filter and rubber lines. You can gravity feed to bleed the fuel filter and line to the injection pump. This will save on your battery and help keep your starter from overheating. Once you have clear fuel flowing from the filter bleeder and line to the injection pump you can bleed the pump and injector lines by cranking the engine over. My pump has two bleed screws. On the outboard side of the pump near the top, one on either end. If you are by yourself, rig up a remote starter switch. Open the pump bleeders while cranking. Close once you have clear fuel, no more bubbles. Crack the injector lines from the pump (at the injectors). Crank again till clear fuel flows. Tighten the injector lines and she should start. After it is warmed up, shut down and reconnect your fuel line from the tank. Hopefully it will start right back up without re-bleeding, mine did. Good luck.
These are the times i'm glad my machines have Kubota's. Open bleed screw, pump hand primer till it feels firm, close bleed screw, start!
I must admit you don't always get all the air out first time, just repeat and you are good to go.
For re-fueling i have a 20L tin with a tap on it, sit it on the ROPS use a piece of garden hose to run from the tap to the fuel tank, open tap and lid on tin and walk away. Come back and the tin is empty, use another one if needed. Saves holding it up with a funnel! or harassing someone to help you out.
Topped the tanks, filled the fuel filter and I have taken off the injectors and they seem to be getting fuel but when I open the bleed screw on the filter and crank it over, nothing comes out not even bubbles. its almost acting as though it wants to start but just wont fire over. I am wondering if I am not letting the glow plugs get warm enough. I hold the button for about a minute and then try it. At this point I am afraid I am going to burn up the starter. I am at a loss but am going to keep trying to get this thing started so I can try to convince my Dad that he needs to get rid of it.
OK, so it wasnt getting any fuel, at least it was only dripping out of the injectors when I craked all of them open. The "bleed" screw I was refering to was actually an overfill screw on the filter. There was a "primer" on the top of the filter and I thought that it was locked up. after all day of trying to figure it out, (and I dont know what made me do it) I took the fuel line off the filter from the gas tank and blew through it. The "primer bulb" on the top of the filter was now "unlocked" so I opened the screw and primed if about 4 times, got gas out of it and tried to fire it. it SO wanted to fire but didnt.
we put it back on a slow charge and will wait till tomorrow. One thing though, I was holding the glow plug button in for a good five minutes and the selenoid got really hot and started smoking - I assume that the smoke was from the diesel spilling on it and it getting hot was from the charge, I just hope I didnt fry out the selenoid now..A new solenoid won't be too expensive if it was damaged, but 5 minutes of glow may have damaged the plugs...OK, so it wasnt getting any fuel, at least it was only dripping out of the injectors when I craked all of them open. The "bleed" screw I was refering to was actually an overfill screw on the filter. There was a "primer" on the top of the filter and I thought that it was locked up. after all day of trying to figure it out, (and I dont know what made me do it) I took the fuel line off the filter from the gas tank and blew through it. The "primer bulb" on the top of the filter was now "unlocked" so I opened the screw and primed if about 4 times, got gas out of it and tried to fire it. it SO wanted to fire but didnt.
Are you getting smoke when its spinning?
Can you crack the nuts on the injectors and crank it? see if you get fuel pooling at the nuts, if so it appears you are getting fuel to the injectors.
The best indicator for fuel delivery is smoke, if its puffing white smoke you are getting fuel, its just not hot enough to detonate the charge.
we were getting smoke when we shot some ether in it, but there was also some black which would indicate unburned fuel ---???? the selenoid got hot, like HOT enough to smoke the fuel that spilled on it. When I pressed the plug "button" you can hear it click, course that doesnt mean I didnt damage the plugs. I was just speaking to the guy to had it before us and he said that he would have to clear the fuel line from the tank on occasion cuz the tanks were beginning to rust and sediment was clogging the screen in the bottom so maybe we found our issue. I am thinking that if we can bypass the fuel tanks and run the line to a 5 gallon can we may get it to fire over. if that works then I would need to fluch the fuel tanks but not sure how I would accomlplish that......
Thats a good start, use a small bottle of fuel then you know its not clogged.
To clear the lines you should be able to use compressed air or even if the lines are visable i would install new hose, its not expensive. The hardest part will be the puckup lines in the fuel tank.
