743 positive battery cable to ground

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mahans7

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Hello, I'm new to this site and just bought my first Bobcat this weekend, a 743. My sons and I ran it all weekend but the battery would die at the end of the day (about 7 hours each day). The battery tested weak and charged up fine each day with a charger. Tonight I looked at the battery cables and the positive cable was grounded to the bell housing and the negative cable was connected to the starter. When my son was reconnecting the battery the negative post would arc via his wrench to the side of the engine housing. Is this an acceptable way to run the battery cables and if not why would one connect it this way? Thanks.
 
If the key switch is off there should be no arc when the ground is connected. Possibly the alternator has been damaged by the reverse hookup though.
Actual reverse polarity hooked up to any vehicle designed for a negative ground will fry the alternator and any other electronics that contain solid state components (transistors & diodes). Is it possible someone converted this machine to a positive ground? Not very likely. Although I have not personally seen it, I understand there are conditions where a battery that has been completely drained can be reversed charged. When you recharged the battery every day, did you hook the charger up with the negative on the block? Pull the battery and check the polarity with a meter. If it is reversed it is garbage. I would also pull the alternator and have it tested. It's very likely it has been damaged. Do the 743's have computers or control boxes?
 
Actual reverse polarity hooked up to any vehicle designed for a negative ground will fry the alternator and any other electronics that contain solid state components (transistors & diodes). Is it possible someone converted this machine to a positive ground? Not very likely. Although I have not personally seen it, I understand there are conditions where a battery that has been completely drained can be reversed charged. When you recharged the battery every day, did you hook the charger up with the negative on the block? Pull the battery and check the polarity with a meter. If it is reversed it is garbage. I would also pull the alternator and have it tested. It's very likely it has been damaged. Do the 743's have computers or control boxes?
I too think someone has hooked the cables up wrong. The 743 machines had no computers, so it will be fine.
It is possible the alternator is damaged, but as it uses diodes that allows power to flow in one direction only, it may be ok too.
I still don't get how it started as i'd assume the starter to spin in the other direction, very weird.
 
I too think someone has hooked the cables up wrong. The 743 machines had no computers, so it will be fine.
It is possible the alternator is damaged, but as it uses diodes that allows power to flow in one direction only, it may be ok too.
I still don't get how it started as i'd assume the starter to spin in the other direction, very weird.
When I charged the battery, I disconnected the cables the first day and charged it overnight and yesterday I just connected the charging cables at my neighbors house (our job site) with the battery still connected. I'll check the battery polarity when I get home tonight. As far as starting the engine, can it start if its spinning the opposite direction? It does start very easily, runs smoothly all day and makes no unusual sound when starting. On closer inspection, the alternator red wire has been disconnected. I guess I'll reverse the battery cables, reconnect the alternator positive wire and try to run it if that sounds reasonable. If it doesn't charge the battery, do you test it like in the manual, diodes, stator, windings etc. or do you just buy another alternator? As usual, you guys are full of great insight, thanks. Ed
 
I too think someone has hooked the cables up wrong. The 743 machines had no computers, so it will be fine.
It is possible the alternator is damaged, but as it uses diodes that allows power to flow in one direction only, it may be ok too.
I still don't get how it started as i'd assume the starter to spin in the other direction, very weird.
Maybe the previous owner got a car battery and for some reason the position of the battery terminals would not let it be connected properly. But the most likely reason is sloppy work. Find any beer cans in the cab? The starter has a Bendix drive (I think) that spins out to engage the flywheel. That would only work if it went the proper direction. Connect it properly and see how it starts and charges. If you need to bring it someplace, best to bring it to a rebuild place than AAP or AZ. My used Bobcat came with a car battery that was about 1/2" too wide, so they added a 1" plastic spacer under the battery so it was above the battery tray. So it was really not held very well from moving. But they clamped it tightly down to prevent it from moving. I got the right battery from Interstate and tossed the spacer. If your Bobcat has a Mando alternator (original for many) if its broken get a new Delco or something. The rebuilders hate to tear apart a Mando. (Korean). Best to get the proper battery for a Bobcat which is usually a truck battery.
 
Maybe the previous owner got a car battery and for some reason the position of the battery terminals would not let it be connected properly. But the most likely reason is sloppy work. Find any beer cans in the cab? The starter has a Bendix drive (I think) that spins out to engage the flywheel. That would only work if it went the proper direction. Connect it properly and see how it starts and charges. If you need to bring it someplace, best to bring it to a rebuild place than AAP or AZ. My used Bobcat came with a car battery that was about 1/2" too wide, so they added a 1" plastic spacer under the battery so it was above the battery tray. So it was really not held very well from moving. But they clamped it tightly down to prevent it from moving. I got the right battery from Interstate and tossed the spacer. If your Bobcat has a Mando alternator (original for many) if its broken get a new Delco or something. The rebuilders hate to tear apart a Mando. (Korean). Best to get the proper battery for a Bobcat which is usually a truck battery.
As I understand, Series Wound starter motors will always spin the same direction with forward or reverse polarity. It's the relationship of the field polarity to the rotor polarity that determines the rotation. This is why winch motors use four solenoids to flip the field when changing direction. The little mini-starters are permanent magnet motors and they would work different and would spin backwards if reversed. At least that is my understanding. As for reversing the polarity and blowing up the alternator, it's the diodes that create the short when the wiring is reversed. Inside alternators there is a three phase stator, on each phase there are two very large diodes one going to the positive terminal and one going to ground. With two diodes per phase, and three phases, that's six high amperage diodes. When the battery is reversed those six diodes are reversed and the battery shorts through those diodes until the battery is dead or the diodes melt. Visit any alternator rebuild shop and they will show you examples of melted diode packs.
 
As I understand, Series Wound starter motors will always spin the same direction with forward or reverse polarity. It's the relationship of the field polarity to the rotor polarity that determines the rotation. This is why winch motors use four solenoids to flip the field when changing direction. The little mini-starters are permanent magnet motors and they would work different and would spin backwards if reversed. At least that is my understanding. As for reversing the polarity and blowing up the alternator, it's the diodes that create the short when the wiring is reversed. Inside alternators there is a three phase stator, on each phase there are two very large diodes one going to the positive terminal and one going to ground. With two diodes per phase, and three phases, that's six high amperage diodes. When the battery is reversed those six diodes are reversed and the battery shorts through those diodes until the battery is dead or the diodes melt. Visit any alternator rebuild shop and they will show you examples of melted diode packs.
Does the 743 have a volt meter in the cab? Our little 443B only has a temp gauge and a voltage gauge. If the polarity were reversed that gauge should have been peg'd to the bottom. Was it reading 12 to 14V?
 
Does the 743 have a volt meter in the cab? Our little 443B only has a temp gauge and a voltage gauge. If the polarity were reversed that gauge should have been peg'd to the bottom. Was it reading 12 to 14V?
If the large Red alternator wire had been disconnected by the previous owner, there likely was a reason they did this. If it was mine I would pull the alternator and have a shop test it. Even some of the auto parts stores have those little alternator and starter test stations. There are no fuses in alternator circuits, sometimes they use fusable links which are just short sections of smaller gauge wire intended to burn up when a short happens. If the diodes have been blown in the alternator they can either fail short or fail open. If they have failed short and you don't know it and you hook it back up it will short out the battery regardless of what the polarity is.
 
If the large Red alternator wire had been disconnected by the previous owner, there likely was a reason they did this. If it was mine I would pull the alternator and have a shop test it. Even some of the auto parts stores have those little alternator and starter test stations. There are no fuses in alternator circuits, sometimes they use fusable links which are just short sections of smaller gauge wire intended to burn up when a short happens. If the diodes have been blown in the alternator they can either fail short or fail open. If they have failed short and you don't know it and you hook it back up it will short out the battery regardless of what the polarity is.
Just got home from work and its nearing 11 PM. I can't go over tonight to visit the Bobcat at our neighbors house(the job site) since he's sick with pancreatic cancer and on chemotherapy which is why I went ahead and bought the 743 to fix his back yard(its been uncut for years with 6-8 foot weeds/trees). He wants to not leave a mess for his wife if he doesn't make it. My sons and I are trying to complete his yard ASAP before I take off the alternator and the Bobcat goes down. My son drove the Bobcat tonight with the battery cables routed properly but without the alternator red wire hooked up. He said it ran beautifully like before and that the voltage gauge was reading 12 volts. With the leads reversed yesterday my other son said the gauge was reading less than 12 volts. The battery is a large car battery and the hold down bracket is kind of mangled so the battery is just sitting there without support(no beer cans that I can find yet but lots of dirt and grease). The man who sold it to me said he's just a country guy and just ran it and didn't know about proper battery cable routing and didn't do much maintenance unless something quit working. Thanks again guys for all your input.
 
Just got home from work and its nearing 11 PM. I can't go over tonight to visit the Bobcat at our neighbors house(the job site) since he's sick with pancreatic cancer and on chemotherapy which is why I went ahead and bought the 743 to fix his back yard(its been uncut for years with 6-8 foot weeds/trees). He wants to not leave a mess for his wife if he doesn't make it. My sons and I are trying to complete his yard ASAP before I take off the alternator and the Bobcat goes down. My son drove the Bobcat tonight with the battery cables routed properly but without the alternator red wire hooked up. He said it ran beautifully like before and that the voltage gauge was reading 12 volts. With the leads reversed yesterday my other son said the gauge was reading less than 12 volts. The battery is a large car battery and the hold down bracket is kind of mangled so the battery is just sitting there without support(no beer cans that I can find yet but lots of dirt and grease). The man who sold it to me said he's just a country guy and just ran it and didn't know about proper battery cable routing and didn't do much maintenance unless something quit working. Thanks again guys for all your input.
I pulled out the alternator tonight and had it tested at autozone. They tested it as an AC Delco alternator from 1980. It failed the diode, voltage regulator and voltage rectifier tests. So should I buy the $69 shipped ebay alternator, have it rebuilt at the alternator shop, keep charging it after every use externally(not really), or is there an Delco equivalent?
 
I pulled out the alternator tonight and had it tested at autozone. They tested it as an AC Delco alternator from 1980. It failed the diode, voltage regulator and voltage rectifier tests. So should I buy the $69 shipped ebay alternator, have it rebuilt at the alternator shop, keep charging it after every use externally(not really), or is there an Delco equivalent?
Before you do anything, first figure out exactly which Delco you have, what "Clocking" it has, and if the pulley and pulley spacers are special to that model bobcat.
You likely have an AC Delco 10SI. Since you're not driving a Cadillac or motorhome you likely only have a 37 Amp alternator. You don't need a high amperage alternator in a Bobcat. Sometimes they stamp the serial number and Amp rating right into the case. Looking at the vent holes on the back case half will help you identify which delco model you have.
The clocking is the relative position of the back half of the alternator to the front half. The options are 12 O'clock, 3, 6, or 9 O'clock.
The pulley that was on the Delco 10SI that was on our 443B was not the usual automobile type pulley. Make sure you keep the old alternator and pulley until you know for sure the new one will fit and the belt lines up straight with the other pulleys. They also make marine versions, one wire versions, positive ground versions of those alternators, but they are not common.
The Delco's were used on millions of GM vehicles, so if your backyard is hiding an old rusting chevy you might already have what you need. If you knew what year and model chevy to tell the local parts store you might be able to get the equivalent alternator there.
You could also rebuild it your self, they sell kits with new bearings, regulators, diodes, usually they are under $20, but if you've never had one apart it will take you few hours to figure out what goes where. It's usually not worth spending that amount of time to save 40 or 50 dollars.
Post up a picture of the alternator if you can. I've found this link to be informative.
http://www.madelectrical.com/electricaltech/delcoremy.shtml
 
Before you do anything, first figure out exactly which Delco you have, what "Clocking" it has, and if the pulley and pulley spacers are special to that model bobcat.
You likely have an AC Delco 10SI. Since you're not driving a Cadillac or motorhome you likely only have a 37 Amp alternator. You don't need a high amperage alternator in a Bobcat. Sometimes they stamp the serial number and Amp rating right into the case. Looking at the vent holes on the back case half will help you identify which delco model you have.
The clocking is the relative position of the back half of the alternator to the front half. The options are 12 O'clock, 3, 6, or 9 O'clock.
The pulley that was on the Delco 10SI that was on our 443B was not the usual automobile type pulley. Make sure you keep the old alternator and pulley until you know for sure the new one will fit and the belt lines up straight with the other pulleys. They also make marine versions, one wire versions, positive ground versions of those alternators, but they are not common.
The Delco's were used on millions of GM vehicles, so if your backyard is hiding an old rusting chevy you might already have what you need. If you knew what year and model chevy to tell the local parts store you might be able to get the equivalent alternator there.
You could also rebuild it your self, they sell kits with new bearings, regulators, diodes, usually they are under $20, but if you've never had one apart it will take you few hours to figure out what goes where. It's usually not worth spending that amount of time to save 40 or 50 dollars.
Post up a picture of the alternator if you can. I've found this link to be informative.
http://www.madelectrical.com/electricaltech/delcoremy.shtml
Unbelievable! I didn't realize there was this much to an alternator. I'm almost tempted to try and rebuild it myself just to learn more about them. I'm off to work and I'll try to post pictures tonight but it will be late since I have to work my kids football game tonight. Thanks again Max. Ed
 
Unbelievable! I didn't realize there was this much to an alternator. I'm almost tempted to try and rebuild it myself just to learn more about them. I'm off to work and I'll try to post pictures tonight but it will be late since I have to work my kids football game tonight. Thanks again Max. Ed
Just looking at the picture of your machine made me wonder if the front tire and the rear tire are the same diameter. Check the circimference of them both , they have to be the same or very close since they are driven from a common sprocket internally and any difference puts strain on the chains.
 
Just looking at the picture of your machine made me wonder if the front tire and the rear tire are the same diameter. Check the circimference of them both , they have to be the same or very close since they are driven from a common sprocket internally and any difference puts strain on the chains.
I can't seem to get the alternator pictures to post. It is a Delco 10SI, 3 o'clock alternator. The alternator link by Max was very informative. A rebuild kit would be $13.18 from Amazon versus a lifetime warranty $49.95 reman alternator from Autozone. The tire do look like they are different in size but the size printed on the tires are identical. I guess its due to wear. Thanks again for all the info.
 
I can't seem to get the alternator pictures to post. It is a Delco 10SI, 3 o'clock alternator. The alternator link by Max was very informative. A rebuild kit would be $13.18 from Amazon versus a lifetime warranty $49.95 reman alternator from Autozone. The tire do look like they are different in size but the size printed on the tires are identical. I guess its due to wear. Thanks again for all the info.
The picture does look like it's bigger, but looking again, it looks like the back one has sunk into the dirt a little or the front is being pushed up from the bucket being down.
If you are using your machine on dirt/grass it won't be an issue if they are not quite the same diameter. If you use it on concrete or bitumen (any 'sticky' surface) it can be very hard on your drive chains/sprockets and bearings. Same with if you put any tracks on. If you aren't, don't be too concerned.
 
The picture does look like it's bigger, but looking again, it looks like the back one has sunk into the dirt a little or the front is being pushed up from the bucket being down.
If you are using your machine on dirt/grass it won't be an issue if they are not quite the same diameter. If you use it on concrete or bitumen (any 'sticky' surface) it can be very hard on your drive chains/sprockets and bearings. Same with if you put any tracks on. If you aren't, don't be too concerned.
I put a remanufactured Delco 10SI(3 o'clock/61 amp) alternator on today and reconnected the 2 wires to the starter solenoid and the dash indicator light. The voltage reading was 14 volts and the dash light worked. The bobcat will be run on dirt/grass with occasional short straight runs on asphalt between sites. Thanks again guys for all your help.
 
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