RC60 blowing smoke

[ASV603]

My ASV RC60 has been blowing white smoke for a while. I don't use it a lot, so I figure less than 100 hours. I originally suspected dirty injectors, so I ran Diesel Clean in fuel hoping to fix the problem. Well... the machine over heated. So I checked the usual stuff, and found the radiator stuffed with dirt. I cleaned it all out with an air hose and tried again and the engine started knocking. It now has a solid knock, and the white smoke has turned black. It also loses power. The smoke seems to originate from somewhere towards the front and under the block. Injector problem, or something much more serious?

 

[Tazza]

A knock can be a bad injector, but it could be more serious.
If it was over heated, there is a possibility that the head has cracked or the head gasket has failed.
The smoke, could it be coming from a breather tube? if so, this could be blow-by, not a good thing if it's excessive.
Sadly, you may need to pull the head and check the rods to see if the knock is a bad rod bearing.

 

[MotoX_Racer07]

I've worked on many of these skid steers ASV and Caterpillar, and have done complete engine overhauls on many of these 3024C Cat engines (Also same as Perkins 404C-22) The early RC60 head gaskets were a fibrous gasket and known to blow between cylinders or blow into the water jacket between the cylinder head and block. They now sell you a metal gasket with sealer bonded on it. White smoke indicates coolant getting into your cylinder. I'd put money on the cylinder knock being a Rod bearing. My guess is it overheated due to the coolant leaking into the cylinder. Cooling systems work under pressure, if its leaking it wont pressurize, and wont circulate. Same deal if you leave your radiator cap off, you'll overheat. But the clogged radiator sure didn't help any of it. Looks to me your going to need to pull the engine and do an overhaul. If the rod bearing is gone, then the rod is beating up the crank journal. I've have the cranks ground .020 undersize. They do offer .020'" undersize bearings only on the crank. If your mechanically inclined, pull the head, get a look at it. You can also see which rod bearing is bad once the head is off by manually turning the engine over. If you get to that point I'll explain how.

 

[ASV603]

I've worked on many of these skid steers ASV and Caterpillar, and have done complete engine overhauls on many of these 3024C Cat engines (Also same as Perkins 404C-22) The early RC60 head gaskets were a fibrous gasket and known to blow between cylinders or blow into the water jacket between the cylinder head and block. They now sell you a metal gasket with sealer bonded on it. White smoke indicates coolant getting into your cylinder. I'd put money on the cylinder knock being a Rod bearing. My guess is it overheated due to the coolant leaking into the cylinder. Cooling systems work under pressure, if its leaking it wont pressurize, and wont circulate. Same deal if you leave your radiator cap off, you'll overheat. But the clogged radiator sure didn't help any of it. Looks to me your going to need to pull the engine and do an overhaul. If the rod bearing is gone, then the rod is beating up the crank journal. I've have the cranks ground .020 undersize. They do offer .020'" undersize bearings only on the crank. If your mechanically inclined, pull the head, get a look at it. You can also see which rod bearing is bad once the head is off by manually turning the engine over. If you get to that point I'll explain how.

Thank you for the reply. I have it in the shop now and waiting for a diagnosis. The guy that looked at it said he thought the head gasket blew and it caused the radiator fluid to wash out the main bearing. He won't know for sure without doing what you suggested above. So here is deal. Should I look for a drop in rebuild, like you see on eBay, or pay this guy to repair it. There is a company out of Phoenix that seems to have good reviews and sells a lot of rebuilt engines on eBay. They sell a 404D-22t for $6300. They say it is complete and ready to run, with a warranty. 1. Any idea what I should expect to pay someone to do the engine swap? 2. What is the difference between a 404C and a 404D? 3. Is the 404c-22 the same only without the turbo? In other words, this motor is about $1000 cheaper than the 404c-22t. Is it cost effect to just take the turbo off of my existing motor and put it an the new one? 4. If he is able to repair the bearing and head gasket, considering no additional damage, do you think that is the best way to go? Just thinking that if the gasket went, what is next? It might just be smarter to do the swap. Not sure. Either way this ends up going, it will be expensive. Unfortunately, I don't have that kind of money to throw around so I am just trying to make an educated decision. Thanks again.

 

[Tazza]

Thank you for the reply. I have it in the shop now and waiting for a diagnosis. The guy that looked at it said he thought the head gasket blew and it caused the radiator fluid to wash out the main bearing. He won't know for sure without doing what you suggested above. So here is deal. Should I look for a drop in rebuild, like you see on eBay, or pay this guy to repair it. There is a company out of Phoenix that seems to have good reviews and sells a lot of rebuilt engines on eBay. They sell a 404D-22t for $6300. They say it is complete and ready to run, with a warranty. 1. Any idea what I should expect to pay someone to do the engine swap? 2. What is the difference between a 404C and a 404D? 3. Is the 404c-22 the same only without the turbo? In other words, this motor is about $1000 cheaper than the 404c-22t. Is it cost effect to just take the turbo off of my existing motor and put it an the new one? 4. If he is able to repair the bearing and head gasket, considering no additional damage, do you think that is the best way to go? Just thinking that if the gasket went, what is next? It might just be smarter to do the swap. Not sure. Either way this ends up going, it will be expensive. Unfortunately, I don't have that kind of money to throw around so I am just trying to make an educated decision. Thanks again.

I wouldn't just slap your turbo on the other engine without knowing if it is designed for a turbo, you don't want the possibility of it causing damage to it.
That is a lot for a reman engine, if your old one is fixable by replacing the bearing and head gasket, i'd go with it.
If the shop is good, and they check that everything is within spec, there is no reason why the repair will not last.
Head gaskets can go due to getting too hot, not being installed correctly, i'm sure other things too.
Not sure how a bearing can be washed due to a bad head gasket though, lack of oil pressure, yes, but not a gasket.

 

[ASV603]

I wouldn't just slap your turbo on the other engine without knowing if it is designed for a turbo, you don't want the possibility of it causing damage to it.
That is a lot for a reman engine, if your old one is fixable by replacing the bearing and head gasket, i'd go with it.
If the shop is good, and they check that everything is within spec, there is no reason why the repair will not last.
Head gaskets can go due to getting too hot, not being installed correctly, i'm sure other things too.
Not sure how a bearing can be washed due to a bad head gasket though, lack of oil pressure, yes, but not a gasket.

Thanks Taza, patiently waiting for information from the shop is causing anxiety, lol. You are probably right about the turbo. $6300 is the cheapest reman I have found, so I am a little surprised that you think that is high. Do you have any recommendations for a cheaper source? I am working with a local desiel tech, I could not afford the dealerships. The two near me opened the conversation with a $10K-12K new motor, so that conversation ended quickly. I called a couple engine shops, and one had a 6 month wait list, and the other wasn't excepting any new work. So I am lucky I found the guy I have. He told me today he was having a difficult time sourcing parts, so still waiting for an estimate, and exactly what needs to be replaced. I did find out the 404D is an exact replacement for the 404c, with the only difference being something about a change in the mounting of the throttle.

 

[Tazza]

Thanks Taza, patiently waiting for information from the shop is causing anxiety, lol. You are probably right about the turbo. $6300 is the cheapest reman I have found, so I am a little surprised that you think that is high. Do you have any recommendations for a cheaper source? I am working with a local desiel tech, I could not afford the dealerships. The two near me opened the conversation with a $10K-12K new motor, so that conversation ended quickly. I called a couple engine shops, and one had a 6 month wait list, and the other wasn't excepting any new work. So I am lucky I found the guy I have. He told me today he was having a difficult time sourcing parts, so still waiting for an estimate, and exactly what needs to be replaced. I did find out the 404D is an exact replacement for the 404c, with the only difference being something about a change in the mounting of the throttle.

Sorry, i meant at as the fact it was expensive to just throw a reman engine in, instead of seeing what it would cost to repair the issues with your old one. That price is about the go for a fully rebuilt engine with warranty.

 

[ASV603]

Sorry, i meant at as the fact it was expensive to just throw a reman engine in, instead of seeing what it would cost to repair the issues with your old one. That price is about the go for a fully rebuilt engine with warranty.

The shop called back and said there was coolant in the oil. The bigger mystery is they discovered a hole in the bottom of the block. They stopped at that point as rebuilding the motor is no longer an option. Has anyone heard of such a thing? They think the head gasket went first and that caused the catastrophic damage. Now I am looking for a new motor. Considering a place called Diesel Remaned Parts in Phoenix, I found them on eBay and they have great reviews. They will take the damaged block as a core. He said there is a government sponsored program to scrap the old blocks, so they will not be rebuilt. So condition doesn't matter. Not sure why they are paying to scrap the 404c (tier II) motor, but as long as I can get a replacement 404d I guess that's ok. He said the new tier III, cannot be used in the older machines, so I guess I am lucky someone is making the d model.

 

[Tazza]

The shop called back and said there was coolant in the oil. The bigger mystery is they discovered a hole in the bottom of the block. They stopped at that point as rebuilding the motor is no longer an option. Has anyone heard of such a thing? They think the head gasket went first and that caused the catastrophic damage. Now I am looking for a new motor. Considering a place called Diesel Remaned Parts in Phoenix, I found them on eBay and they have great reviews. They will take the damaged block as a core. He said there is a government sponsored program to scrap the old blocks, so they will not be rebuilt. So condition doesn't matter. Not sure why they are paying to scrap the 404c (tier II) motor, but as long as I can get a replacement 404d I guess that's ok. He said the new tier III, cannot be used in the older machines, so I guess I am lucky someone is making the d model.

A blown head gasket can blow up the engine of it managed to draw in coolant and cause a hydraulic lock and bend and sometimes break and punch a hole in the block.
That is an interesitng government policy, one way to get engines out of the market i guess, but what stops peoply bringing them in from out of state?

 

[ASV603]

A blown head gasket can blow up the engine of it managed to draw in coolant and cause a hydraulic lock and bend and sometimes break and punch a hole in the block.
That is an interesitng government policy, one way to get engines out of the market i guess, but what stops peoply bringing them in from out of state?

It is a federal deal so they come from all over. I'm shipping my old core from NH to Oklahoma City. I guess part of it was EPA policy stating all new diesel motors must be electronically controlled. That introduced tier III engines and they ceased to make the older models. The new models will not work in the older machines, which required a rebuild, find used motor or scrap the machine. Recently some EPA policy was relaxed and a deal was struck between the three players and Perkins is remanfacturing the 404, under certain conditions, the big one being that the old core is scrapped. It's a $2000 fine if not returned. So I got a brand new motor from Perkins for $6300, which would not have been possible without this arrangement. So while it's still very expensive, it's better than the alternative. At least that's how the guy explained it to me.

 

[MotoX_Racer07]

It is a federal deal so they come from all over. I'm shipping my old core from NH to Oklahoma City. I guess part of it was EPA policy stating all new diesel motors must be electronically controlled. That introduced tier III engines and they ceased to make the older models. The new models will not work in the older machines, which required a rebuild, find used motor or scrap the machine. Recently some EPA policy was relaxed and a deal was struck between the three players and Perkins is remanfacturing the 404, under certain conditions, the big one being that the old core is scrapped. It's a $2000 fine if not returned. So I got a brand new motor from Perkins for $6300, which would not have been possible without this arrangement. So while it's still very expensive, it's better than the alternative. At least that's how the guy explained it to me.

From your original post you said it was knocking so the main bearing was shot causing the rod to break. That probably happened from slamming around on the rod journal, intern breaking going through the block. It's a shame you had to buy a new engine. I've welded a few blocks stitching the hole shut with Tech Rod-99 it's a 99% nickel electrode, expensive but cheap compared to a new block or engine. Also requires preheating the block to 350 degrees to prevent stress cracking. Today's world not to many guys left that actually do specialty weld repairs. Every shop now is in the buy new business, bend you over the counter and take it. lol To bad you didn't live in Pennsylvania I would of helped you out with that. Any other snags you run into let me know. I've got lots of Asv RC50/RC60 parts.

 

[ASV603]

From your original post you said it was knocking so the main bearing was shot causing the rod to break. That probably happened from slamming around on the rod journal, intern breaking going through the block. It's a shame you had to buy a new engine. I've welded a few blocks stitching the hole shut with Tech Rod-99 it's a 99% nickel electrode, expensive but cheap compared to a new block or engine. Also requires preheating the block to 350 degrees to prevent stress cracking. Today's world not to many guys left that actually do specialty weld repairs. Every shop now is in the buy new business, bend you over the counter and take it. lol To bad you didn't live in Pennsylvania I would of helped you out with that. Any other snags you run into let me know. I've got lots of Asv RC50/RC60 parts.

Thank you for the offer, kind words and sharing your level of expertise. I really appreciate it. I grew up in Central PA, but life moved me up north. Yeah, would have been so much better to repair it, but like you said, it is very difficult to find a good diesel mechanic let alone a specialty welder. As it is, I have spent a lot of money, and my machine still isn't ready.