My 853H restoration project begins...will be looking for some guidance

[kilohertz]

Finding used parts in Canada could be painful. That said there is a tractor wrecking yard not to far from me that does get the occasional skidsteer in from time to time:
http://www.fawcett.cc/
If they don't have what you are looking for, they may know of someplace that does.
Happy Hunting - SR

Thanks SR! That's great, glad to find another Canadian Bobcat owner. My biggest concern is finding the Bobtach plate, although ebay has lot's of bit to make one. Need to confirm what machines have the same plate, I checked preliminary dimensions of various machines on the Bobcat historical site, but it's pretty vague. I'm heading into town today and will check in at the Bobcat dealer. Already talked to them before I bought the machine and they quoted me $3K for the tach plate, ya right. Also going to try to find a good used starter, so I can get working on the engine today.
ChandlerW, well my 720 has been a rock, just a super running machine and has not had a minutes trouble since I got it...4 years ago?? I found a bigger bucket for it which made snow removal just great, locally $75, need to find more of those deals. I built a post hole auger for it from a Case 580 McMillan backhoe auger motor, which works well but is slow, a bit heavy, but indestructable....looking forward to 24GPM in the 853H
cheers

 

[kilohertz]

Thanks SR! That's great, glad to find another Canadian Bobcat owner. My biggest concern is finding the Bobtach plate, although ebay has lot's of bit to make one. Need to confirm what machines have the same plate, I checked preliminary dimensions of various machines on the Bobcat historical site, but it's pretty vague. I'm heading into town today and will check in at the Bobcat dealer. Already talked to them before I bought the machine and they quoted me $3K for the tach plate, ya right. Also going to try to find a good used starter, so I can get working on the engine today.
ChandlerW, well my 720 has been a rock, just a super running machine and has not had a minutes trouble since I got it...4 years ago?? I found a bigger bucket for it which made snow removal just great, locally $75, need to find more of those deals. I built a post hole auger for it from a Case 580 McMillan backhoe auger motor, which works well but is slow, a bit heavy, but indestructable....looking forward to 24GPM in the 853H
cheers

Well I started cleaning up the machine before the real work begins and found a few more things....insert discouraging words here___________________
Lifted the ROPS and found a big wiring mess underneath..spent about 15 minutes looking at wiring harness that has been unplugged, left with wires hanging everywhere. I'm not sure where all the plugs go, or what they may be for, or if anything is missing from under there...I've looked around the web but can't find any pics of the 853 under the canopy. A few pictures of mine...if anybody recognises something major missing, let me know, or if you have pics or know of some that show the area under the cab....It's a BOSS machine as the BOSS box is still connected under the seat, and it looks like the harness is intact, but all the plugs are disconnected from where they went.
Is there a way to run these without the BOSS system? The wiring on the roof of the cab, going to where the BOSS panel and key switch was, has just been cut off with around 20 wires there...would like to just put regular gauges back in.
Anyway, some encouraging words would be great...or maybe I just get the engine going and part it out the rest and find another machine.
cheers

 

[7LBSSMALLIE]

Well I started cleaning up the machine before the real work begins and found a few more things....insert discouraging words here___________________
Lifted the ROPS and found a big wiring mess underneath..spent about 15 minutes looking at wiring harness that has been unplugged, left with wires hanging everywhere. I'm not sure where all the plugs go, or what they may be for, or if anything is missing from under there...I've looked around the web but can't find any pics of the 853 under the canopy. A few pictures of mine...if anybody recognises something major missing, let me know, or if you have pics or know of some that show the area under the cab....It's a BOSS machine as the BOSS box is still connected under the seat, and it looks like the harness is intact, but all the plugs are disconnected from where they went.
Is there a way to run these without the BOSS system? The wiring on the roof of the cab, going to where the BOSS panel and key switch was, has just been cut off with around 20 wires there...would like to just put regular gauges back in.
Anyway, some encouraging words would be great...or maybe I just get the engine going and part it out the rest and find another machine.
cheers

so it is a done deal. yank stater send to local electric repeair shop. if they can fix it. that's youre first 3 hundred saved. install it pull glow plugs run compression check. every thing else rides on this. pwr plant needs to viable

 

[7LBSSMALLIE]

so it is a done deal. yank stater send to local electric repeair shop. if they can fix it. that's youre first 3 hundred saved. install it pull glow plugs run compression check. every thing else rides on this. pwr plant needs to viable

by the way pull glow plugs and see if she will turn by hand. as in prybar at flywheel

 

[Hotrod1830]

by the way pull glow plugs and see if she will turn by hand. as in prybar at flywheel

Looks like this guy did it on a 753. http://www.skidsteerforum.com/DesktopDefault.aspx?tabid=54&frmView=ShowPost&PostID=89738

 

[Hotrod1830]

Looks like this guy did it on a 753. http://www.skidsteerforum.com/DesktopDefault.aspx?tabid=54&frmView=ShowPost&PostID=89738

maybe only the gauges. after reading it again, it looks like he left the BOSS module intact and functioning?

 

[kilohertz]

maybe only the gauges. after reading it again, it looks like he left the BOSS module intact and functioning?

Thanks Hotrod, that looks like a viable option...I'm going to have a good close look today and see if I can figure out where all the plugs go. I found a parts manual last night and it shows all of the harnesses and roughly where they go, will be a big help. If I understand BOSS, the upper right panel is just a display, it is not interactive so I should be able to do the same thing as the fellow in his 753, just putting in standard gauges, but keep the BOSS working in the background. My machine has ALL the AUX hydraulic circuits, and even though I may not ever use them all, would be nice to keep them functional for the next person as I think BOSS does control those??
7LBSSMALLIE, it wasn't April 1st when you posted lift pump needs to put out 37psi....okay, I'll bite, where is the lift pump? Is it electric or mechanical? I scoured the service and parts manual and they make no mention of "lift pump". The tank is higher than the IP so gravity should be enough to get the fuel to the IP, the little squeeze bulb wouldn't be required if it had a lift pump as you could just crank the engine to purge the air.
???
cheers

 

[7LBSSMALLIE]

Thanks Hotrod, that looks like a viable option...I'm going to have a good close look today and see if I can figure out where all the plugs go. I found a parts manual last night and it shows all of the harnesses and roughly where they go, will be a big help. If I understand BOSS, the upper right panel is just a display, it is not interactive so I should be able to do the same thing as the fellow in his 753, just putting in standard gauges, but keep the BOSS working in the background. My machine has ALL the AUX hydraulic circuits, and even though I may not ever use them all, would be nice to keep them functional for the next person as I think BOSS does control those??
7LBSSMALLIE, it wasn't April 1st when you posted lift pump needs to put out 37psi....okay, I'll bite, where is the lift pump? Is it electric or mechanical? I scoured the service and parts manual and they make no mention of "lift pump". The tank is higher than the IP so gravity should be enough to get the fuel to the IP, the little squeeze bulb wouldn't be required if it had a lift pump as you could just crank the engine to purge the air.
???
cheers

I belive not confirmed that's it on the back side of eng. as in fwrd part under cab just far enough outta reach. rh side has a lever for primiming. that's from memory only need to fact check. got two in the shop right now will give a look an am.

 

[kilohertz]

I belive not confirmed that's it on the back side of eng. as in fwrd part under cab just far enough outta reach. rh side has a lever for primiming. that's from memory only need to fact check. got two in the shop right now will give a look an am.

Thanks, apreciate it. I had another look at mine and I made a mistake, the upper tank is Hydraulic resevoir, the gas tank is down under...so there has to be a lift pump, but why it's not mentioned anywhere in parts or service manual????
cheers

 

[kilohertz]

Thanks, apreciate it. I had another look at mine and I made a mistake, the upper tank is Hydraulic resevoir, the gas tank is down under...so there has to be a lift pump, but why it's not mentioned anywhere in parts or service manual????
cheers

I put in the new starter, completely disconnected all electrical from the machine, centered the sticks, put in fresh fuel, replaced the missing hydraulic hose, topped up the hydraulic resevoir...and got ready to fire it.
I simply connected 12v to the IP solenoid, and cranked it with a hot wire, nothing else connected. I just wanted to see if it would run....it didn't. Made sure the lines were purged of air, cracked the injector lines and let the bubbles clear while cranking, tighetend them down and still nothing. Finally decided on a little breath of ether to see if I had compression and sure enough she coughed, and a few more cranks and away she went...ran nice for about 2 seconds then immediately took off full bore, wide open run away it's gonna explode type fast...that was scary...thank the good Lord I had the forsight to disconnect the air intake pipe at the manifold and I had a tennis ball ready to stuff in it, which I did and it shut right down. Even pulling the IP power wire off wouldn't stop it. After I cought my breath, I started it again, with tennis ball in hand, this time when she caught and showed signs of takeoff, I used the tennis backk to modulate the input air and was able to control the RPM, crude, but it worked the engine ran just fine, no knocks or bad noises, just LOTS of black smoke. Let it idle for about a minute hoping it might clear itself but it didn't...it still wanted to run away if I removed the tennis ball. If I cut the power to the IP while it was running mid speed, say 1800 RPM or so, the engine would quit, if it was running at high RPM, around 3000, removing the power to the IP wouldn't kill the engine, the tennus ball was required to block the air to shut it down.
So, I have an excess fuel problem....anyone know if there is a common failure mode in the IP? Seals, govenor, anything else? Don't know where else the fuel would be coming from.
Help! Your thoughts?
cheers

 

[Hotrod1830]

I put in the new starter, completely disconnected all electrical from the machine, centered the sticks, put in fresh fuel, replaced the missing hydraulic hose, topped up the hydraulic resevoir...and got ready to fire it.
I simply connected 12v to the IP solenoid, and cranked it with a hot wire, nothing else connected. I just wanted to see if it would run....it didn't. Made sure the lines were purged of air, cracked the injector lines and let the bubbles clear while cranking, tighetend them down and still nothing. Finally decided on a little breath of ether to see if I had compression and sure enough she coughed, and a few more cranks and away she went...ran nice for about 2 seconds then immediately took off full bore, wide open run away it's gonna explode type fast...that was scary...thank the good Lord I had the forsight to disconnect the air intake pipe at the manifold and I had a tennis ball ready to stuff in it, which I did and it shut right down. Even pulling the IP power wire off wouldn't stop it. After I cought my breath, I started it again, with tennis ball in hand, this time when she caught and showed signs of takeoff, I used the tennis backk to modulate the input air and was able to control the RPM, crude, but it worked the engine ran just fine, no knocks or bad noises, just LOTS of black smoke. Let it idle for about a minute hoping it might clear itself but it didn't...it still wanted to run away if I removed the tennis ball. If I cut the power to the IP while it was running mid speed, say 1800 RPM or so, the engine would quit, if it was running at high RPM, around 3000, removing the power to the IP wouldn't kill the engine, the tennus ball was required to block the air to shut it down.
So, I have an excess fuel problem....anyone know if there is a common failure mode in the IP? Seals, govenor, anything else? Don't know where else the fuel would be coming from.
Help! Your thoughts?
cheers

Well, at least it runs. It has been sitting for a few years correct? Something in the pump may be stuck or it could have a couple injectors leaking maybe? I have heard stories of guys running automatic transmission fluid thru them and getting injectors to stop sticking. They will indeed run on ATF( as long as its not cold outside). You may be holding a tennis ball for awhile, but it's worth a shot. Maybe someone who has more Isuzu expierience will chime in.

 

[7LBSSMALLIE]

Well, at least it runs. It has been sitting for a few years correct? Something in the pump may be stuck or it could have a couple injectors leaking maybe? I have heard stories of guys running automatic transmission fluid thru them and getting injectors to stop sticking. They will indeed run on ATF( as long as its not cold outside). You may be holding a tennis ball for awhile, but it's worth a shot. Maybe someone who has more Isuzu expierience will chime in.

im gonna need to think on this one concerining iz runaway. kinda scary aint it. but tell tell the truth did you spot youre britches a tad. nice forethought with the tennis ball. don't know if I would of thought of that. apperantly you got some game. . so lets confirm inj pump timing. remove belt cover. remove glow plugs turn eng over BY hand till #1 (lft side) is on compression stroke. bring it to tdc (wire in hole will get close) there is two sets of marks on pulley 1 at 12 one about30 degrees off this is the one you want one large scribe 3 smaller timinining is 17 degrees before tdc clen em mark em. also of note that remove plastic cover small plate removed inj pump gear should have a stamped 0 on gear with a line up mark. now keep in mind im not starrining at S/M this b from memeroy but that's the jist of it

 

[7LBSSMALLIE]

Well, at least it runs. It has been sitting for a few years correct? Something in the pump may be stuck or it could have a couple injectors leaking maybe? I have heard stories of guys running automatic transmission fluid thru them and getting injectors to stop sticking. They will indeed run on ATF( as long as its not cold outside). You may be holding a tennis ball for awhile, but it's worth a shot. Maybe someone who has more Isuzu expierience will chime in.

tried to post and failed. #1 tdc crank pulley two sets of marks first set should be about 12. second set is what you want see flat spot in cover this is line up. about 3oclock. timining is 17 degrees before tdc, inj pump gear also has a mark shoul see a 0 in window

 

[kilohertz]

tried to post and failed. #1 tdc crank pulley two sets of marks first set should be about 12. second set is what you want see flat spot in cover this is line up. about 3oclock. timining is 17 degrees before tdc, inj pump gear also has a mark shoul see a 0 in window

I made a video to help explaim what is happening and so you can see the smoke colour, and amount.
http://www3.telus.net/radioboy/Bobcat running.wmv
Thanks for any help.

 

[kilohertz]

I made a video to help explaim what is happening and so you can see the smoke colour, and amount.
http://www3.telus.net/radioboy/Bobcat%20running.wmv
Thanks for any help.

So after reading all about Bosch VE type pumps, I decided to tear into mine to see if my suspicions were correct, and they were. I removed the top cover, the govenor housing, and sure enough, it was all gummed up and stuck. I won't call it rust, but after sitting for a few years, it had just all seized up, the collar that the weights drive was stuck, the throttle control lever the little spring attaches to was stuck...so I blew out all the Diesel and sprayed in some penetrating oil and let it soak. Carefully started to move things around, unstuck the sleeve got the weights moving and within a minute, everything was freed up and loose. Put it all back together, primed the pump and it fired right up, idled great, no need for the tennis ball any more!!
I let it run for about 30 seconds as I still don't have an alternator for it and the water pump is not turning, but it was enough to know that was the problem. I ran it a few times throughout the day and think I have a sticky injector, or leaky injector. I am using a little 5PSI pump ahead of the filter, to prime the system and just help the IP for now. The machine will start fine and the exhaust is clear, then when I rev it up a few times, it seems to change operation, starts to smoke black, idles faster and starts knocking (Diesel ping) burbles a little, farts and pops and then settles out after I shut off the little electric pump. Continues to run fine after I reconnect the little pump then will do it all again. I'm hoping it is just an injector leaky/sticky and not the IP. I removed the fuel filter and filled it with ATF and ran that thru the machine, seemed to help some..may just need a few more applications to clear it up???
Any thoughts?
Thanks!

 

[Hotrod1830]

So after reading all about Bosch VE type pumps, I decided to tear into mine to see if my suspicions were correct, and they were. I removed the top cover, the govenor housing, and sure enough, it was all gummed up and stuck. I won't call it rust, but after sitting for a few years, it had just all seized up, the collar that the weights drive was stuck, the throttle control lever the little spring attaches to was stuck...so I blew out all the Diesel and sprayed in some penetrating oil and let it soak. Carefully started to move things around, unstuck the sleeve got the weights moving and within a minute, everything was freed up and loose. Put it all back together, primed the pump and it fired right up, idled great, no need for the tennis ball any more!!
I let it run for about 30 seconds as I still don't have an alternator for it and the water pump is not turning, but it was enough to know that was the problem. I ran it a few times throughout the day and think I have a sticky injector, or leaky injector. I am using a little 5PSI pump ahead of the filter, to prime the system and just help the IP for now. The machine will start fine and the exhaust is clear, then when I rev it up a few times, it seems to change operation, starts to smoke black, idles faster and starts knocking (Diesel ping) burbles a little, farts and pops and then settles out after I shut off the little electric pump. Continues to run fine after I reconnect the little pump then will do it all again. I'm hoping it is just an injector leaky/sticky and not the IP. I removed the fuel filter and filled it with ATF and ran that thru the machine, seemed to help some..may just need a few more applications to clear it up???
Any thoughts?
Thanks!

Good job finding the problem in the pump. I would run some injector/fuel system cleaner thru it with some fresh fuel and try and take care of the injectors. I suspect they will clean up. It will take some time though. probably a tank or so. Have you checked the hyrdo operation yet?

 

[kilohertz]

Good job finding the problem in the pump. I would run some injector/fuel system cleaner thru it with some fresh fuel and try and take care of the injectors. I suspect they will clean up. It will take some time though. probably a tank or so. Have you checked the hyrdo operation yet?

Thanks HotRod! Appreciate the support. It's amazing what you can figure out in the quiet of a still country morning...I think I found the problem. First some pics to show you my setup.
The "workshop"

So what I discovered just now, I removed the little electric pump as I thought when it was unplugged it could be blocking flow, and it was. So now the machine runs without the helper pump, but just after I removed it, I primed the system with the bulb, and I could hear a little wispy bubbly noise in the gear cover of the IP, I have the rubber plug out as I was checking for blowby, and NOW, I think IP shaft seal is leaking. This would explain the lack of throttle repsonse and lacking power, as the vane pump is not developing full pressure into the IP, with the electric helper, it has lots of poop but smokes. After this discovery, I checked the oil again....guess what...loaded with Diesel. Up to the top of the stick. Okay, another mystery solved. loks like the IP will have to come out for a reseal.
I tried the lift/tilt and I can hear the engine load down, but wouldn't move, so I know the hydraulics should be okay, I just have to figure out what I need to do to fool the locks, or activate the solenoids so the spool valve will do its' thing. I have't tried the hydrostats yet as it is precariously balanced on the trailer, which is not hooked up to my truck. I have the machine chained both directions for safety but will try the drive motors when I reconnect the trailer. I should be able to do that this week, now that I am comfortable of no runaway condition.
more later.....
inside the IP before cleaning

 

[mmsllc]

Well, at least it runs. It has been sitting for a few years correct? Something in the pump may be stuck or it could have a couple injectors leaking maybe? I have heard stories of guys running automatic transmission fluid thru them and getting injectors to stop sticking. They will indeed run on ATF( as long as its not cold outside). You may be holding a tennis ball for awhile, but it's worth a shot. Maybe someone who has more Isuzu expierience will chime in.

I think that worrying about the value of the machine will become an obstacle, if you dwell on it. I think you should have a good running machine when you are done with getting her to run. Keep working on it, though.

 

[Tazza]

I think that worrying about the value of the machine will become an obstacle, if you dwell on it. I think you should have a good running machine when you are done with getting her to run. Keep working on it, though.

I'm thinking it's pulling in engine oil, that will make it run away like it does.
This was more common on turbo engines, the turbo seal would blow out and it would suck in engine oil, speeding up the engine till it ran out of oil and locked up.
I'd like to start with a compression test, see what you get.
It took a bit to start possibly because you didn't have it glowed?

 

[kilohertz]

I'm thinking it's pulling in engine oil, that will make it run away like it does.
This was more common on turbo engines, the turbo seal would blow out and it would suck in engine oil, speeding up the engine till it ran out of oil and locked up.
I'd like to start with a compression test, see what you get.
It took a bit to start possibly because you didn't have it glowed?

Well some good progress in the last few days. I decided to move the machine off the trailer so with my son walking behind the machine, ready to grab the IP power wire if anything went "wrong" I jumped in the cab with a high idle set, and simply drove it off the trailer, the hydrostats work!! Yeah! drove it around a little and it makes no wierd noises and it goes forward/backward quite nicely, although the servo controls will take a little getting used to. Yikes, a little squirrelly.
Yesterday I decided to get into the IP so I bought the Bosch service kit from the local injection shop and tore it apart. Pretty neat how they work, and once I understood the functions, decided it was not black magic. I pulled it completely apart and cleaned up all the little parts and surfaces and replaced all the seals I could find, put it all back together and back in the machine and it fired right up..yes! No more fuel leaking from the front shaft seal, it still smokes but also found now that I have one injector not working, will pull that apart today and see if I can get it fixed, if not, buy a new one. That should fix the smoking problem, and the lack of power, 25%.
Slowly getting there...not bad for a scrapped machine. Hydraulics will be next...
cheers