MUSTANG MTL16 RUNS BUT HAVE NO HYDRAULICS

[MDTWRENCH]

02 MODEL YEAR. PROBLEMS STARTED W/ SOMEONE PUT 90W GEAR LUBE IN HYDRAULIC TANK. BUCKET BECAME SLUGGISH, OPERATOR HEARD WHAT HE THOUGHT SOUNDED LIKE A CIRCUIT BREAKER SNAP. BUCKET INOP. @ THIS POINT. ENGINE RAN OK AND WOULD STILL PROPEL TRACKS OK BUT AFTER APPX. 5 MINS HEARD A SECOND SNAP AND NOW TRACKS INOP. ALL FILTERS CHANGED,SOME METAL FOUND IN FILTER UNDER CAB. FILTER IN ENGINE COMP. CLEAN. HELP!

 

[Tazza]

So no drive OR hydraulics? sounds like it could be your linkage between the engine and the pumps or inside the pumps. There are sprockets and like a drive line from the back of the pump to the front, something may have let go that caused the shaft to break, that would explain the metal in the filter. Vane pumps are bad for this, if they wear badly enough the vanes can fall out and get stuck then snap the shaft.
Also in future, please don't type ALL in capitals

 

[MDTWRENCH]

So no drive OR hydraulics? sounds like it could be your linkage between the engine and the pumps or inside the pumps. There are sprockets and like a drive line from the back of the pump to the front, something may have let go that caused the shaft to break, that would explain the metal in the filter. Vane pumps are bad for this, if they wear badly enough the vanes can fall out and get stuck then snap the shaft.
Also in future, please don't type ALL in capitals

I'm not familiar with this unit, Iam a automotive wrench with toyota and trying to help a buddy out of a mess. It appears that there are 3 pumps . 2 that perhaps are used to power the drive and 1 that powers the bucket/lift? The forward most pump has a large supply line feeding it , was wondering if this was a transfer pump to supply the 2 main pumps that are bolted directly to bell housing? Obviously in need of a servce manual! Is there a shaft that is driven from the engine that extends all the way through these pumps? Any help greatly appreciated! thanks,Jeff

 

[Land-Tech]

I'm not familiar with this unit, Iam a automotive wrench with toyota and trying to help a buddy out of a mess. It appears that there are 3 pumps . 2 that perhaps are used to power the drive and 1 that powers the bucket/lift? The forward most pump has a large supply line feeding it , was wondering if this was a transfer pump to supply the 2 main pumps that are bolted directly to bell housing? Obviously in need of a servce manual! Is there a shaft that is driven from the engine that extends all the way through these pumps? Any help greatly appreciated! thanks,Jeff

There are two variable piston pumps and than a gear pump at the end.
Did they add a lot of gear oil . I can't see where that would damage it in the short run unless it will blow seals. The thick oil might be cavitating. Others would have more experience in this area
I'm not sure but Gehl/ Mustang use Eaton pumps with a splined coupler between engine and first pump and each pump splined to the next.
The variable piston pumps each run a drive motor with the gear pump on the end supplies your hydralics.My Gehl has a dual gear pump on the front with the extra pump supplying my hi-flow aux.Scott

 

[MDTWRENCH]

There are two variable piston pumps and than a gear pump at the end.
Did they add a lot of gear oil . I can't see where that would damage it in the short run unless it will blow seals. The thick oil might be cavitating. Others would have more experience in this area
I'm not sure but Gehl/ Mustang use Eaton pumps with a splined coupler between engine and first pump and each pump splined to the next.
The variable piston pumps each run a drive motor with the gear pump on the end supplies your hydralics.My Gehl has a dual gear pump on the front with the extra pump supplying my hi-flow aux.Scott

Supposedly 5 gallons of gear oil added. Think it's all out but can't tell for sure, doesn't appear to be showing up anywhere again. Both filters have hyd. oil in them now but just can't seem to build pressure. It's outside @ 10* so I suppose that a slug of thick oil could cause flow issues resulting in cavitation @ pump. Didn't Know if any metal in filter close to pump was normal, filter had never been changed. There was a small piece that was shiny, almost looked as though it was a piece of gear tooth. Disheartening @ best! Thanks to all !!!!!!

 

[MDTWRENCH]

So no drive OR hydraulics? sounds like it could be your linkage between the engine and the pumps or inside the pumps. There are sprockets and like a drive line from the back of the pump to the front, something may have let go that caused the shaft to break, that would explain the metal in the filter. Vane pumps are bad for this, if they wear badly enough the vanes can fall out and get stuck then snap the shaft.
Also in future, please don't type ALL in capitals

Sorry for the caps. issue. As I posted this I realized what I'd done. Did want to thank you for the reply, all help is appreciated! Also wanted to convey that this not for my personal monetary gain. This unit belongs to a close friend that is in the construction industry, who likes tens of thousand like him, is between a rock and a hard place. Thanks again!

 

[skidsteer.ca]

Sorry for the caps. issue. As I posted this I realized what I'd done. Did want to thank you for the reply, all help is appreciated! Also wanted to convey that this not for my personal monetary gain. This unit belongs to a close friend that is in the construction industry, who likes tens of thousand like him, is between a rock and a hard place. Thanks again!

The odd flake of steel can be normal, but if there is a table spoon full or more then something is likely going to need replaced.
I can't see the viscosity of the gear oil causing immediate damage because we fire things up on some pretty cold morning where I'm from. The oil and filter was drained and replaced with the correct stuff now? ,so the small amount that remains should not be a issue. How long did it run with the wrong oil? just 5 minutes? The loader boom will not lift now either?
Basically you have 3 pumps, a variable displacement one for the track on each side, and a fixed displacement pump that runs the loader and often doubles as a charge pressure pump to feed low (100 to 200 psi) pressure to the variable pumps. Are there any warning lights lit in the cab? Like the "low charge pressure aka Transmission light"
A piece of steel in the filter could be from return oil from an attachment it ran at one point or another too.
If all 3 pumps don't work and the charge pressure light is on it could be one of the pumps scored and seized up snapping the drive line from the engine to the pumps. It may also be possible that it still has charge pressure with a broken drive line if it has a separate charge pressure pump driven elsewhere. (not as likely as first scenario)
Sorry I'm not familiar with that machine. I'd be temped to take the hoses of the pump farthest from the engine (fixed volume pump for loader) and look into the port while someone turn the motor with a wrench to see if the pump is still turning, to verify the driveline is still connected. Go from there.
Ken

 

[Land-Tech]

The odd flake of steel can be normal, but if there is a table spoon full or more then something is likely going to need replaced.
I can't see the viscosity of the gear oil causing immediate damage because we fire things up on some pretty cold morning where I'm from. The oil and filter was drained and replaced with the correct stuff now? ,so the small amount that remains should not be a issue. How long did it run with the wrong oil? just 5 minutes? The loader boom will not lift now either?
Basically you have 3 pumps, a variable displacement one for the track on each side, and a fixed displacement pump that runs the loader and often doubles as a charge pressure pump to feed low (100 to 200 psi) pressure to the variable pumps. Are there any warning lights lit in the cab? Like the "low charge pressure aka Transmission light"
A piece of steel in the filter could be from return oil from an attachment it ran at one point or another too.
If all 3 pumps don't work and the charge pressure light is on it could be one of the pumps scored and seized up snapping the drive line from the engine to the pumps. It may also be possible that it still has charge pressure with a broken drive line if it has a separate charge pressure pump driven elsewhere. (not as likely as first scenario)
Sorry I'm not familiar with that machine. I'd be temped to take the hoses of the pump farthest from the engine (fixed volume pump for loader) and look into the port while someone turn the motor with a wrench to see if the pump is still turning, to verify the driveline is still connected. Go from there.
Ken

The trouble shooting section three possible causes for loss of power to hydros and lift /tilt system. Too thick of oil.low oil level, and broken coupler.
10 degrees is pretty cold, I feel for you if you are outside.
None of my machines ,Gehl or Mustang have a charge indicator light. Ken's idea of checking to see if gear pump is working is good. If it went bad first causing the loss of tilt and lift and then seized up breaking the coupler between engine and first hydrostatic pump.
Why was the machine so low on oil and how long was it this way?.Five gallons is a third of your oil.If it was low enough to hurt would have caused cavitation and foamy oil. Low oil your lift and tilt functions would be jerky. See if you get any reaction out of your aux functions, Your controls all move ok? This all precision guess work on my part. Scott

 

[Land-Tech]

The trouble shooting section three possible causes for loss of power to hydros and lift /tilt system. Too thick of oil.low oil level, and broken coupler.
10 degrees is pretty cold, I feel for you if you are outside.
None of my machines ,Gehl or Mustang have a charge indicator light. Ken's idea of checking to see if gear pump is working is good. If it went bad first causing the loss of tilt and lift and then seized up breaking the coupler between engine and first hydrostatic pump.
Why was the machine so low on oil and how long was it this way?.Five gallons is a third of your oil.If it was low enough to hurt would have caused cavitation and foamy oil. Low oil your lift and tilt functions would be jerky. See if you get any reaction out of your aux functions, Your controls all move ok? This all precision guess work on my part. Scott

If there pilot controls on the machine and there are no unusual noise when you run the engine. take the time warm the machine and controls as much as possible before you start tearing it down. If there is even a little bit of water in the system. it will freeze and cause control problems in the smaller lines.
I really think the coupler is the problem.Take the time to do the easier things first.Scott

 

[MDTWRENCH]

If there pilot controls on the machine and there are no unusual noise when you run the engine. take the time warm the machine and controls as much as possible before you start tearing it down. If there is even a little bit of water in the system. it will freeze and cause control problems in the smaller lines.
I really think the coupler is the problem.Take the time to do the easier things first.Scott

Idon't know why the oil was added. I have looked @this machine stem to stern and see very minor seepage only. The controls move freely. There was certainly more than a tablespoon of metal in filter, maybe 2-3. The idea to see if gear movement at pump furthest from engine is excellent! Hats off for this suggestion. There are no warning lites on. I wander if there are any self diagnostics on this machine? Does anyone know what the 2 solenoids with hoses attached near undercab filter do? Does anyone know if tracks can be manually unlocked? Would like to get it off trailer and in the shop (too tall to enter shop with it on trailer) Again, can't thank you enough for the advice, Jeff

 

[Tazza]

Idon't know why the oil was added. I have looked @this machine stem to stern and see very minor seepage only. The controls move freely. There was certainly more than a tablespoon of metal in filter, maybe 2-3. The idea to see if gear movement at pump furthest from engine is excellent! Hats off for this suggestion. There are no warning lites on. I wander if there are any self diagnostics on this machine? Does anyone know what the 2 solenoids with hoses attached near undercab filter do? Does anyone know if tracks can be manually unlocked? Would like to get it off trailer and in the shop (too tall to enter shop with it on trailer) Again, can't thank you enough for the advice, Jeff

With that much contamination honestly, the pump, motors and rams need to come out and purge ALL the lines and oil cooler. I would start by pulling the pump and pull it down, if its still good inside you still need to clean the metal particles out. Sorry so sound gloomy, but this does not sound good...
Hydraulics are all tight tollerance parts, so even small pieces of steel can cause massive damage.... They can get caught in motors, between the rotating group and the valve plate causing major damage.
Pull the pump first, then see where you can go from there.

 

[MDTWRENCH]

With that much contamination honestly, the pump, motors and rams need to come out and purge ALL the lines and oil cooler. I would start by pulling the pump and pull it down, if its still good inside you still need to clean the metal particles out. Sorry so sound gloomy, but this does not sound good...
Hydraulics are all tight tollerance parts, so even small pieces of steel can cause massive damage.... They can get caught in motors, between the rotating group and the valve plate causing major damage.
Pull the pump first, then see where you can go from there.

Likewise, I think some gloom is going to be involved here. I've had some hydraulic experience, about 25 years ago used to work on 170 ton WABCO haul trucks in the copper mines in AZ. They were actually easier to deal with, it helps w/ there is room to stand! I'd sure like to get this thing off the trailer if possible, was put on w/crane.

 

[Tazza]

Likewise, I think some gloom is going to be involved here. I've had some hydraulic experience, about 25 years ago used to work on 170 ton WABCO haul trucks in the copper mines in AZ. They were actually easier to deal with, it helps w/ there is room to stand! I'd sure like to get this thing off the trailer if possible, was put on w/crane.

Any way to remove the drive motors to let it roll? I'd rather not advise you to open the motor lines up and roll it as you may cause more damage to the motors if there are metal particles in there.... Unless you can wet the tray and slide it off?

 

[MDTWRENCH]

Any way to remove the drive motors to let it roll? I'd rather not advise you to open the motor lines up and roll it as you may cause more damage to the motors if there are metal particles in there.... Unless you can wet the tray and slide it off?

Thanks Tazza thats a great idea. As the unit rolls I can collect the oil and see if metal appears , may give me some indication of how bad it is. Afraid that metal is just going to lay in the bottom of the motors until it's running again and then come out of hiding to exact revenge of the indviduals who are trying to wake this thing up!! This is a great forum and while I can't repay you for the help," My father owns the cattle on a thousanf hills". He's been known to sell a few to repay the kindness shown by folks like yourself and the many others who have helped along the way. The author of this quote can be found in lifes repair manual, the bible. Thanks again. Jeff

 

[Tazza]

Thanks Tazza thats a great idea. As the unit rolls I can collect the oil and see if metal appears , may give me some indication of how bad it is. Afraid that metal is just going to lay in the bottom of the motors until it's running again and then come out of hiding to exact revenge of the indviduals who are trying to wake this thing up!! This is a great forum and while I can't repay you for the help," My father owns the cattle on a thousanf hills". He's been known to sell a few to repay the kindness shown by folks like yourself and the many others who have helped along the way. The author of this quote can be found in lifes repair manual, the bible. Thanks again. Jeff

If the motors are Geroler style the metal won't sit as such, it will get caught between the rollers in the motor and score the insides, if you have metal in your hydraulic system i'd bet its in your motors too.... ALL your hydraulic systems are actually linked together. As Ken pointed out, small amounts are normal for wear, but large amounts are a sign of doom....

 

[skidsteer.ca]

If the motors are Geroler style the metal won't sit as such, it will get caught between the rollers in the motor and score the insides, if you have metal in your hydraulic system i'd bet its in your motors too.... ALL your hydraulic systems are actually linked together. As Ken pointed out, small amounts are normal for wear, but large amounts are a sign of doom....

Many of these loaders have spring applied hydraulic pressure to release park brakes in a the form of a clutch pack, one for each side. You would have to pressurise these to release the spring force. Then the motors still won't want to turn unless you unhook the hoses to the hydros. The skidding idea is likely the easiest, a good comealong or 2 should be enough force to slide it on a sheet of steel if you happen to have one.
If you can get your hands on the hyd schematic for this machine perhaps you can trace which circuits would feed the oil to the filter that had the junk as you said the other was clean.
Also high pressure filters can be had for a reasonable price and could be used to help clean up the system by temporarily plumbing them in.
With that much trash you definitely have a failure, Just need to think it through.
Ken

 

[MDTWRENCH]

Many of these loaders have spring applied hydraulic pressure to release park brakes in a the form of a clutch pack, one for each side. You would have to pressurise these to release the spring force. Then the motors still won't want to turn unless you unhook the hoses to the hydros. The skidding idea is likely the easiest, a good comealong or 2 should be enough force to slide it on a sheet of steel if you happen to have one.
If you can get your hands on the hyd schematic for this machine perhaps you can trace which circuits would feed the oil to the filter that had the junk as you said the other was clean.
Also high pressure filters can be had for a reasonable price and could be used to help clean up the system by temporarily plumbing them in.
With that much trash you definitely have a failure, Just need to think it through.
Ken

Some new Info. Owner advised me that only 2 gal. of 90W. was added but not sure why. I would guess that it had operational issues. Doesn't appear that maint. was a priority w/ this machine. The hydraulic cooler behind the radiator is about half plugged w/ mud, certainly going to address that. The additional filters to clean the oil is a good idea, I'd wondered about that. The weather has broke, temps in the 50's going to attempt some diagnostics today or tommorow. Could another machine be used to release the brakes on this thing through the aux. connections provided we filtered the returning oil ?

 

[sandhills-elect]

Some new Info. Owner advised me that only 2 gal. of 90W. was added but not sure why. I would guess that it had operational issues. Doesn't appear that maint. was a priority w/ this machine. The hydraulic cooler behind the radiator is about half plugged w/ mud, certainly going to address that. The additional filters to clean the oil is a good idea, I'd wondered about that. The weather has broke, temps in the 50's going to attempt some diagnostics today or tommorow. Could another machine be used to release the brakes on this thing through the aux. connections provided we filtered the returning oil ?

I would be very careful what you do, i have one and they have hydraulic controls to the sticks to run everything. I think they are microdyraulics? Don't want to cause more damage than needed. I would skid it or find a forklift to lift it. They weigh about7-8000lbs. if you could jack it up and put plywood or metal under it and slinde that i would think it would move rather easily. (hook to plywood or metal and pull on that not machine) Jack trailer tung clear up to set back on ground or lift it with anther machine block trailer wheels and tough and pull of with other machine, then as you get to the ground if you had pipes as wide as machine or round post you could put them underneth to let it roll on that. Just a thought take if for what it is worth. the filter under cab only needs replace like every 500hrs and should not have much in 500 if it is taken care of.

 

[MDTWRENCH]

I would be very careful what you do, i have one and they have hydraulic controls to the sticks to run everything. I think they are microdyraulics? Don't want to cause more damage than needed. I would skid it or find a forklift to lift it. They weigh about7-8000lbs. if you could jack it up and put plywood or metal under it and slinde that i would think it would move rather easily. (hook to plywood or metal and pull on that not machine) Jack trailer tung clear up to set back on ground or lift it with anther machine block trailer wheels and tough and pull of with other machine, then as you get to the ground if you had pipes as wide as machine or round post you could put them underneth to let it roll on that. Just a thought take if for what it is worth. the filter under cab only needs replace like every 500hrs and should not have much in 500 if it is taken care of.

Thanks Sandhill. My ankle is giving me a fit been unable to play w/ it but the first order of business will be to get it off trailer. You're right I don't want to cause more head aches so we'll get it off w/ some old fashioned ingenuity as you suggested. About the time I get back to it I'm sure it will be-10* again. Oh well! Thanks