Hydraulic oil recommendation

[sgf]

I know this topic has been addressed here and on other forums in the past but with the ever changing formulas and government bans on some additives I'd like an update.

My 1999 Lx665 manual recommends diesel rated 10w30 motor oil in both the engine and hydraulic system. I bought the machine used and was told that the hydraulic system was likely filled with "hydraulic fluid" (no type mentioned) since they use it in most all their heavy equip. The other day I blew a hyd. line so I have to add a lot of fluid. After lots of reading and seeing the high price of diesel rated oils I decided to still use universal tractor hyd. fluid (J303) again. Now I learn that my state and others prohibits the sale of it. This is because the NH standard it was based on is long gone and not updated. It's been about 5 years since that happened but I bought a bunch on sale back when so I wasn't aware.

After researching more I figured I'd just use Rotella 10w30 T4 motor oil since I already use the 15w40 in the other diesels. Oddly, the 10w30 is less available and much more expensive when you can find it.

For those in my situation, what modern fluids are you successfully using in your machines. Some say the best choice is 20w hyd. fuid but opinions vary. My NH dealer sees no issue with using hyd. fluid but can't recommend a specific weight.

 

[sgf]

Since it has been years since I asked my small local NH dealer for their recommendation, and they changed ownership since then, I tried again today. The service manager told me they do not use motor oil in the hydraulic systems, including the older machines. He said they use whatever hyd. fluid they get from our local Napa. I asked about the fluid type/weight and he couldn't recall.

I am going to use AW 46 hyd. fluid. Our ambient air temps. often get in the 90's but don't get much below freezing too often. Is this my best option, who knows. I try to follow the mfg. fluid recomendations when I can but in this case I have to adjust.

This topic frustrates me to no end. I have spent hours and hours reserching in an effort to make the right call. The answers mostly depend on who you ask. They cover everything from "follow the users manual", which often doesn't apply due to the ongoing changes in oil formulas, to every other variation there could be. Even state regulations vary. The universal tractor fluid I mentioned is a perfect example. Since my machine has likely used some form of hyd. fluid rather than motor oil its whole life I feel safer with it than potentialy mixing 10w30 motor oil (likely with incompatible modern additives) with old hyd. oil. I will try to flush the system through the wet line connections as someone recommended in another thread.

 

[foton]

my two machines use aw-46 as required by manf. JCB and wacker-neuson

 

[wkola]

Power King Skid Loader Oil NT is a premium universal SAE 10W30 hydraulic and hydrostatic fluid containing approximately 2,700 PPM of zinc. This high zinc content provides exceptional anti-wear protection to pumps and motors at the high pressures of modern hydrostatic systems. This oil is very moisture resistant as it avoids the types of detergents that typically allow even minimal amounts of moisture to set up corrosion and wear in hydrostatic systems. Power King Skid Loader Oil NT contains 7.5% NT Oil Additive. NT Oil Additive cleans the gums and varnishes out of valves, extends hose and seal life and reduces the frictional heat produced in hydrostatic systems. Some users report reduced noise levels. Power King Skid Loader Oil NT contains only premium additives and high quality paraffinic base oils. Power King Skid Loader Oil NT is pre-filtered at 5 microns to assure purity. Do your part in keeping fluid clean. Change fluid annually or every 1,000 hours. We recommend used oil analysis for machines operated in severe dust or high moisture.

this is what i use and I'm very impressed with it .

King Oil Lubricants,
Office: 240-707-6464Fax: 240-328-4444
12314 Huyett Lane Hagerstown, MD 21740

Power King Skid Loader Oil EXECUTIVE SUMMARY Most hydrostatic drive systems must be rebuilt long before they have reached their potential life span. Repairs can cost several thousands of dollars, plus downtime. Owners who do not know better often simply accept this as the normal cost of doing business. This is a costly mistake. Extending the life of these units by 2X to 4X is not difficult and can result in huge savings. Reduced repair bills, higher productivity and increased satisfaction with machine ownership are tangible benefits. The very small cost of A doing things right@ can save you significant dollars. Power King Skid Loader Oil is a specialty product that can help you achieve those benefits .OVER 400 SPECIALTY LUBRICANTS In Search of Excellence Where to Start, What to Do It has been proven that a small investment in premium fluids and filtration can extend the life of hydrostatic systems. Owners can expect at least double life, if not up to 4X normal hydrostatic life, if the following conditions can be met; The fluid for hydrostatic systems must contain much higher levels of Anti-Wear Additives than what is necessary in most other types of oils. Hydrostatic pumps may operate at 5,500 PSI or higher. In a few moments, we will address anti-wear additives. The Cleanliness of the system must be maintained. The standard filtration of most systems is woefully inadequate. We will show you how to get your system cleaner than new. All oils eventually become contaminated with at least a small amount of Moisture which may cause a substantial amount of damage. The degree of damage will vary immensely, depending upon the composition of the additives in the oil. Power King Skid Loader Oil handles moisture much more easily than most other oils used in hydrostatic systems. Power King Skid Loader oil is available in two petroleum versions and synthetic for cold climates. The two petroleum versions are identical except that the NT version contains 7.5% of our NT Oil Additive. For the ultimate in Hydrostatic System Protection, we suggest the NT version. Hydrostatic systems using NT Oil Additive will run cooler, quieter and more efficiently. In addition, used oil analysis reveals that wear rates can be 30% to 50% lower with NT Oil Additive in the oil. Development of The Product Power King Skid Loader Oil was designed from the ground up to meet the needs of modern high pressure hydraulic and hydrostatic systems. It is suitable for use in all brands of skid steer loaders. Skid loaders need an oil with exceptional wear resistance to help keep operating costs low. In addition, many owners of other types of hydrostatic systems may benefit from the use of this fluid. Your skid loader owner's manual may specify any of several types of fluid for your hydrostatic system. These can include; Motor Oil, Motor Oil with an OEM additive, Universal Tractor Fluid, Automatic Transmission Fluid or Anti Wear Hydraulic Fluid In many cases, the oil specified by one machine manufacturer may be totally different than the oil specified by another machine manufacturer, even though both machines may use identical hydrostatic components. This observation led to a three-year examination of what works best in hydrostatic transmissions. Most of the oils specified in the list above bear little or no resemblance to each other. As facts began to emerge, it became clear that there are three issues that must be addressed in building a superior hydrostatic fluid. They are; Viscosity (oil thickness) Anti-Wear properties, and Moisture tolerance. Motor oil typically contains 3X to 5X more zinc antiwear additive than hydraulic fluid. This helps reduce wear. The downside to motor oil is that it does not tolerate moisture very well, allowing corrosion. Motor oil is intended to operate at higher temperatures where moisture can be driven out during operation. As a hydrostatic system needs maximum protection against corrosion, it is apparent that motor oil is only a second-best idea. One skid steer loader manufacturer sells an anti-wear zinc additive to add to motor oil which nearly triples the zinc content. This zinc level surely helps with the need for antiwear but does nothing to correct the moisture, corrosion and erosion issues. Universal Tractor Fluids are used in tractor hydraulics. This leads many people to believe that they are the first choice in hydrostatic systems. This is not so, they do not provide particularly good performance in hydrostatic systems. Automatic Transmission Fluids have good viscosity properties but lack anti-wear protection in the very high pressures encountered in hydrostatic systems. Anti-wear hydraulic fluids usually contain about 225 to 435 PPM of zinc anti-wear additives. This is not sufficient for the very high pressures of hydrostatic fluids. If this type of fluid has one strength, it is in its excellent moisture tolerance. The Answer Power King Skid Loader Oil This fluid was developed to provide the best combination of properties available for use in hydrostatic systems. The focus was on skid loaders but there are dozens of other uses for this product. Proper Oil Viscosity (Oil Thickness)Power King Skid Loader Oil is a SAE 10W30 Oil with a VI of 151. (For technical people, the cSt viscosity is 10.5 to 11.0 cSt at 100°C and approximately 70.0 at 40°C.) This is within the viscosity range recommended by most hydrostatic pump manufacturers. We can build special purpose synthetic versions of this product for hydrostatic systems with special needs. Maximum Antiwear Protection Power King Skid Loader Oil contains more than 2,500 PPM of zinc. This is 10X more zinc than many antiwear hydraulic fluids and more than double the zinc content of most motor oils. Moisture Tolerance Power King Skid Loader Oil does not contain the additives that weaken resistance to moisture, as are found in motor oil. This means that normal amounts of moisture will not cause corrosive damage to your system. System Cleanliness We recommend that you ask your King Oil Company Distributor about King Super Solvent 32 AW. A Cleaner than new, @ could be the slogan for this product. System cleanliness is extremely important in obtaining long life. We can help you with filtration problems too. Note: NT Oil Additive is also a system cleaner. Be sure to monitor filter differential during the first 50 hours of operation and change filters as necessary. The long term benefits of NT Oil Additive are valuable, and are worth changing a filter or two within the first few hours of operation

 

[Mustang Guy]

Don't totally rely on the machine manufacturers recommendations, go to the pump/motor manufacturers recommendations. Find out what pump you have. Here is an example for Denison:

https://ss-usa.s3.amazonaws.com/c/308475112/media/107945de7c24deb28987491693520829/Denison%20Approved%20Fluids%20List.pdf

 

[Mustang Guy]

Here is more........

Hydraulic Oil Recommendations - [800-398-5733]

ProActive Fluid Power provides hydraulic oil recommendations from leading manufacturers such as Bosch, Char-Lynn, Denison, Eaton, Racine and Vickers.

proactivefluidpower.com

 

[Mustang Guy]

If Power King Skid Loader Oil NT is on any of the approved lists, then you're good to go with that. I have little faith in shills and glossy brochures.

 

[sgf]

After saying I decided on the AW46 I received some replies on the thread and I read them all. I never was able to determine the pump mfg. for my machine. I have spent a crazy amount of time researching this so I'll share what I learned hoping it might help someone else.

You can pretty much pick a fluid and someone will tell you it is best. It is a more complex topic than it seems since oils and fluids have constant updates on API standards companies tout their own products and owners tend to go (understandably) recommend what has worked for them, even in cases where it might not be the best choice. Add to that the fact that manufacturers all have their own ideas and it can be challenging.

I am normally a follow the manual kind of guy. A manufactures has an interest in recommending fluids that are best for the machine so they have less warranty claims and happier customers in the early days of ownership.

I never could determine who made the pumps in my machine. Before I bought the AW-46 I decided to call a few NH dealerships that do mostly construction equipment rather than Ag. I got pretty much the same answers from every service dept. person. Here are my questions and what they told me.

If this machine was in your shop and needed hyd, fluid what would you add? 10W-30 motor oil.
Since I don't know what's in my system or I might introduce other oils from hydraulic rental equipment am I better off using AW-46 instead of diesel rated motor oil? I would not add AW-46. If I was going to us hydraulic fluid I'd go with a muliti- use hydraulic/transmission fluid.
If I add the 10W-30 motor oil as per the manual won't there be an issue with fluid compatibility? The motor oil and hydraulic fluid will be compatible. I'm sure we get machines in all the time that have both in them for one reason or another and we haven't seen issues from this.

So what did I ultimately decide? I decided to not use the AW-46 in this particular machine based on the advice I received from the dealerships. I use Rotella 10W-30 T4 in the engine and that is what I will be using in the hyd, system. I realize people will agree and disagree so make your own choice, I feel confident it is a good call per the manual and the fact that dealers are doing it without issues. I hope this might help someone in the same situation. Granted my research was focused on my machine so it may not apply to others.

 

[mrbb]

maybe you already made up your mind, but here might be some things to checkout
if you go to this link, then go to skid steers, and then to page 9 for your model, it provides a lot of good info and part numbers for basic wear items and fluid amounts and types

https://www.newhollandrochester.com/parts/new-holland/resources/oil-capacities-and-filters/

next the oil used in MY 1999 LX 865 according to MY NH dealer is this stuff, can be had online in 1-gallon, or 2.5 gallon, plus quarts and larger amounts as well, can also be found on places like EBay, amazon and other shops I am sure as well, I just grab at local dealer as there close to me!

it Made by Ambra, called, Mastergold engine oil sae 10w-30, and is also for the older NH hydraulics's and engines

NEW HOLLAND AGRICULTURE | Mastergold™ Oil - MAT 3522 - 10W-30 - 2.5 Gal./9.46 L | 73341762 | MyCNHi US Store

Mastergold™ Oil - MAT 3522 - 10W-30 - 2.5 Gal./9.46 L #73341762 Mastergold™ Oil #733

www.mycnhistore.com

also according to MY dealer techs, they DO NOT recommend MIXING fluids in the hydraulic system, if NOT sure they recommend you DRAIN and use ALL of one brand/type fluid,
according top them,(long time dealer in PA< near NEW factory_)
many fluids and types don;'t play well together and can cause seals to go sooner than they should !
again as you stated your call, do what you feel works for you?

dealers like Messicks, also, GREAT service and knowledgeable, recommend draining and running ALL one fluid, and they will SHIP fluids to you most likely , unless some legal issue doesn;t allow, as NOT sure where your at

 

[Topper1]

All of my case/NH hydraulics get 0w40 or 5w40 T5 full synthetic for year round +40/-40*C operation. I drain the tank every service in attampt to keep the system skewed to "my" fluid and purge the systems annually. I do use a lot of various rental attachments, but, so far so good. Oil is cheap insurance vs repair costs.

 

[sgf]

I really appreciate everyone who took time to reply for their input but I am going with the oil I mentioned. It is locally available, a quality brand and affordable when compared to some of what I consider the ridiculous cost of some alternatives. I am the type who tries hard to use the right consumables. This is why I have spent a ridiculous amount of time researching this. Ultimately I know that if you look long and hard enough you will find recommendations that say you can only use the blood of unicorns found in the northern forests of Estonia or you'll destroy the machine. Others will say they have used water contaminated used oil for thirty years with no issue. I have read what were ultimately non-straight answers from presumably oil scientists and everyone in between. One dealer even varied from others.

You don't have to look farther than this thread to see the variety of opinions including the use of fluids and viscosities that were never recommended for this use, but obviously work well for some folks.

I typically always circle back to the manufacturer recommendations or at least as close as I can get, which is what I am doing in this case. Regarding contamination if you look at it with clarity it comes down to this. I, and probably most of you would prefer one "correct" fluid to be used throughout the machine's life. If you bought the machine new and were the exclusive user you're likely in good shape. If you are like many of us you likely have no clue what oil is in the system. Draining a hydraulic system helps increase the percentage of new oil a bit, but you are not draining a hyd. system fully. That's still contamination, as you are very likely mixing non-compatible fluids. I assure you the guys on the job site running these machines are more likely to be adding what is handy to get back to work. As mentioned previously the rental attachments are another issue. Unless you are evacuating and filtering the rental attachment's fluid before use (unlikely) or you got "really" lucky and all the previous renters used the exact same fluid as you, you have without question contaminated your hydraulic system.

Ultimately I am not totally pleased with my final decision but I do believe it is the best option for me. Most of these oils are similar until additives make them motor oil, transmission fluid, etc. Could I be mixing non-compatible fluids, yes, but when all is said and done I hope for the best.

This is already really long so I won't fully get into the variation in often informed opinions I have read. Grease research will take you down the same rabbit hole, trust me. Thanks again for the links and input, all of which I read and appreciated.

 

[mrbb]

I get your point, and understand things your saying

BUT there is always IMO a difference in folks that OWN equipment and those that run and use others and work on others
what a private owner might do, many times is FAR from what others using equipment they ain;'t paying for will do

as for contamination in fluids,from mixing types?
yup 100% you will never most likely drain a system to remove ALL one X fluid/fluids in it

BUT the percentage will be much lower if you TRY to drain things, and after first, second time, less and less

there can be a BIG difference in having 10 % water in something and 50%
as an extreme example
and meant to be~!


BUT the facts are typically the folks that MAKE the machine have degrees and backgrounds in things that TRY to make the best of this info to use best fluids for the designs they have
NONE Are perfect
that said
the reasons why many OLDER NH dealers I know recommend using what they recommend is, due to , more modern fluids, can be Thinner, lube better clean better and so on, that can lead to OLD seals and such, getting leaks faster(them new fluids with better cleaners and flow abilitys can lead to leaks, seen it happen , so CAN happen just saying )

sort of like playing the game of , some times its better to keep using what you have been , problem free,
than swicthing and having possibly issues

and I get the unknowing, as in when Unknown fluids are in something
ME< personally,
I always, go BACK to what OEM called for, drain al,l I can, some times flush a system to try to remove all, and
then I KNOW I am on the right page top keep going forward, as it was Made/designed to work from day one!

SO< MAYBE this will ensure me the least amount of new leaks or problems!
as for them folks that run used oil, or any fluid they have handy and never have a issue
well, way I see them folks is this
some folks win the lottery too(know one guy personally that one over a million 3 times and his kid won over a mill twice now)
ME< I ain;'t so lucky, if anything I am the opposite of that side of things, I have more BAD luck that good by a LOT!, HAHA!

but as we both agree, e all do what we are comfortable with
BUT going against what OEM calls for, is also doing just that!

best of luck to you, no bash meant here either,

 

[Mustang Guy]

I really think that few, if any, skid steer manufacturers have tribologists on staff. But more than likely pump manufacturers do. My experience from working in Heavy equipment R&D, is that compromises must be met for the sake of price point v. shareholder gratification at the sake of the end user.

Good luck!

 

[MX727]

My excavator calls for AW-46
My CTL calls for 10w-30

That's what they get. It's really that simple.

In the long run, there really isn't much difference in those two fluids.

I really don't understand why people overthink these decisions so much.

Finally, 303 was garbage and caused a lot of problems for people.

 

[cdmccul]

My excavator calls for AW-46
My CTL calls for 10w-30

That's what they get. It's really that simple.

In the long run, there really isn't much difference in those two fluids.

I really don't understand why people overthink these decisions so much.

Finally, 303 was garbage and caused a lot of problems for people.

My 632, 45 years old, was designed for 10w30 that was formulated 45 years ago. That's why I question it.

There have been comments that the detergents and/or wear additives in modern motor oil are hard on the pumps.

But I'm no expert.

 

[MX727]

My 632, 45 years old, was designed for 10w30 that was formulated 45 years ago. That's why I question it.

There have been comments that the detergents and/or wear additives in modern motor oil are hard on the pumps.

But I'm no expert.

I could understand that, but the new machines are still coming with the same recommendations to use 10w-30, so I don't believe the additive packages is damaging to the pumps.

Also, people have mentioned that the machine makers might recommend an oil which the pump manufacturer wouldn't. That's total hogwash. The machine maker is the one that is going to get left dealing with the warranty issues for the pump. They are going to recommend the oil that the pump requires.

 

[richardthorpe]

Dealing with changing fluid requirements can be tricky. Given your scenario, going with Rotella 10w30 T4 motor oil seems sensible, given its compatibility with your other diesel equipment. As for hydraulic fluid, a modern 20w option might be worth exploring. Don't forget to consult other equipment owners' experiences too. If you're also eyeing for excavators, ensuring they gel with your chosen fluids is key. Remember to factor in fluid compatibility for smoother operations, in the case of excavators.

 

[Mustang Guy]

Are you kidding me? How many people use Honda motor oil in their Honda, or Motorcraft motor oil in their Ford, or Caterpillar TO-4 in their hydraulic systems??

 

[brdgbldr]

Here is a post of a video from a reputable company with no affiliation to one brand or another of oil or machine:

What Type of Oil to Use Video

What type of oil to use is always a question on here so here is another short video on the subject that will hopefully help making a decision a little easier. The video is from Loader Parts Source. They are a trusted company that sells and rebuilds pumps and motors of all types.

www.skidsteerforum.com

 

[Mustang Guy]

'Puter probs.