Case skid steer - horrible groaning noise from pumps/motors

[tedf]

Sorry for intrusion into "Bobcat-land"- this is quest on hyd, so i though i'd throw it into the Bobcat forum too.. since it seems to get all the action (compared to 3 posts in Case forum).
i get a horrible groaning noise on my 1845 (yes 1845 not the 1845C .. its early production 1845) when i move control levers fwd or rev. i keep the throttle at half throttle or more, but still get this. Seems better/less noise and groaning at full throttle... or maybe the diesel engine is just drowning out the noise. The loader hyd system seem fine.... i just repacked the cylinders and bleed the lines.
i'm wondering if its air in the motors/pumps??... or i'm using the wrong hyd fluid??
i've replaced the filters (several times).. both the main hyd filter and the charge filter (under the seat).. and changed the fluid (cycled through quite a bit of fluid also from burst hoses). i bought the machine without much/any history from previous owner.
The manual states Case TCH hyd fluid... does this have something "extra" in it? i bought this expensive stuff ($30 for green 5 gal bucket at Autozone) that states "For use by: .... " and JI Case is listed. A few times i put just tractor R&O hyd oil in ($15 for 5 gals "cheap" stuff) during some of the burst hose incidents... would this cause the groaning? like TCH has anti-foaming and R&O doesn't???
the machine moves, and has power.... but i don't think it sounds right (ie not just the normal hyd pumps and motors - like my neighbor's Bobcat). This noise is deafening (i wear hearing protectors). Fluid looks normal, not burnt smelling, or milky.. hard to tell on the foam (since the tank is a real pain to fill or look in and sight glass is in poor condition).
i have the manual, and have been troubleshooting this for past few years...most of elec is gone.. so no idea on charge circuit filter warning "idiot light" - and i can't find anywhere the pressure this is suppose to be (if i inserted a pressure gauge). Machine operates fine, so may be within working limits.
Can anyone narrow down/provide insite on any of these it might be:

• One option is air leak on intake lines... i can't tell on this...how do i check?
• Improper oil ... manual states only Case TCH fluid.
• Need to drain fluid from motors and pumps and refill (contaminated??) - i only drained the tank, and not the entire system... althought burst lines sorta flushed these..
• Relief valves "cavitating" ?? i see "relief valve cartridges" in the manual, is that a filter/screen?
• Other filters/screens that restrict the flow?
• The motor case drain lines (about 3/8") are old/spongey - need replacing...but don't think that would cause this.
• other things?

i really don't want to run it if its tearing something up inside??
thnx for any help, ted

 

[skidsteer.ca]

Ted Here ar a few Q's for you Does the noise come when you lift or dump the loader or does it make the noise when you drive the wheel, they all groan on the drives some, the harder it is to turn the tires, the more noise my bobcat makes, and more so at lower rpm. Thats my expierience. Has this noise been there as long as you have owned the unit? Is it getting noticably worse, or are you not quite sure, but think so? The functions (r and l drives, lift tilt) are smooth and powerful, or do they jerk and surge as they are moved? Air (cavitation) in the system would make the system jerky. Is the hyd tank oil level higher then the pump and hydros, if so a suppy line to the pump or hydros would leak oil out when the machine sits. Colapsed suction hoses and air getting in the suction side of the system will make the drives and lift feel jerky. When you changed the filters did you cut them open and inspect for aluminum, steel or any other contamination. Can you find someone else with a 1845 to compare to. If the wrong oil was used, I don't believe this in itself would cause a noise. If the wrong oil cause something mechanical to tear itself apart, that could cause a noise. (the sound of the mechanical destruction) In this case your filters should be full of trash, and the system should not operate in a normal, powrful and smooth manner. Does it do it for both the right and left wheels and in both forward and reverse? Because the left and right are separate mechanical systems but the share the same oil, some plumbing, but if one acts different then the other its a sure sign of trouble. Putting the machine on blocks and running each side forward and back may make it easier to listen for where the noise comes from. But with the whells turning freely they hydros should be quiet because they are doing almost no work. But it may show you if something is binding, and not turning freely. I'm not sure but as components wear naturally over their life they may slowly become more noisy. Not that they change noticably from hour to hour . Btw how many house are on the machine? I'd contact case and see if their tech will answer any question for you. Like what charge press should be and where to hook the guage. Problems common to this machine. Their feelings about what you describe. Oils that can be used. If they value their customers they should be willing to help a little for (almost) free I've never owned a case, so these sugestions are general in nature but could be applied to most any hydro driven loader. Maybe someone else can be of more help Ken

 

[richard]

Ted Here ar a few Q's for you Does the noise come when you lift or dump the loader or does it make the noise when you drive the wheel, they all groan on the drives some, the harder it is to turn the tires, the more noise my bobcat makes, and more so at lower rpm. Thats my expierience. Has this noise been there as long as you have owned the unit? Is it getting noticably worse, or are you not quite sure, but think so? The functions (r and l drives, lift tilt) are smooth and powerful, or do they jerk and surge as they are moved? Air (cavitation) in the system would make the system jerky. Is the hyd tank oil level higher then the pump and hydros, if so a suppy line to the pump or hydros would leak oil out when the machine sits. Colapsed suction hoses and air getting in the suction side of the system will make the drives and lift feel jerky. When you changed the filters did you cut them open and inspect for aluminum, steel or any other contamination. Can you find someone else with a 1845 to compare to. If the wrong oil was used, I don't believe this in itself would cause a noise. If the wrong oil cause something mechanical to tear itself apart, that could cause a noise. (the sound of the mechanical destruction) In this case your filters should be full of trash, and the system should not operate in a normal, powrful and smooth manner. Does it do it for both the right and left wheels and in both forward and reverse? Because the left and right are separate mechanical systems but the share the same oil, some plumbing, but if one acts different then the other its a sure sign of trouble. Putting the machine on blocks and running each side forward and back may make it easier to listen for where the noise comes from. But with the whells turning freely they hydros should be quiet because they are doing almost no work. But it may show you if something is binding, and not turning freely. I'm not sure but as components wear naturally over their life they may slowly become more noisy. Not that they change noticably from hour to hour . Btw how many house are on the machine? I'd contact case and see if their tech will answer any question for you. Like what charge press should be and where to hook the guage. Problems common to this machine. Their feelings about what you describe. Oils that can be used. If they value their customers they should be willing to help a little for (almost) free I've never owned a case, so these sugestions are general in nature but could be applied to most any hydro driven loader. Maybe someone else can be of more help Ken

I have a Case 85XT and the label next to the hydraulic fluid fill cap says "HTO Additive required". My manual says to use 10W30 oil with 5% HTO additive. I asked my local Case mechanic about the additive and he said they had a skidsteer come in moaning and groaning and they put in the HTO additive and that fixed it. I don't know if the HyTran fluid already has the necessary additives but from what they were telling me, it looks like fluid type could play a role. Although, if it's deafeningly loud like you say, I doubt that's a problem of wrong type fluid.

 

[tedf]

Ted Here ar a few Q's for you Does the noise come when you lift or dump the loader or does it make the noise when you drive the wheel, they all groan on the drives some, the harder it is to turn the tires, the more noise my bobcat makes, and more so at lower rpm. Thats my expierience. Has this noise been there as long as you have owned the unit? Is it getting noticably worse, or are you not quite sure, but think so? The functions (r and l drives, lift tilt) are smooth and powerful, or do they jerk and surge as they are moved? Air (cavitation) in the system would make the system jerky. Is the hyd tank oil level higher then the pump and hydros, if so a suppy line to the pump or hydros would leak oil out when the machine sits. Colapsed suction hoses and air getting in the suction side of the system will make the drives and lift feel jerky. When you changed the filters did you cut them open and inspect for aluminum, steel or any other contamination. Can you find someone else with a 1845 to compare to. If the wrong oil was used, I don't believe this in itself would cause a noise. If the wrong oil cause something mechanical to tear itself apart, that could cause a noise. (the sound of the mechanical destruction) In this case your filters should be full of trash, and the system should not operate in a normal, powrful and smooth manner. Does it do it for both the right and left wheels and in both forward and reverse? Because the left and right are separate mechanical systems but the share the same oil, some plumbing, but if one acts different then the other its a sure sign of trouble. Putting the machine on blocks and running each side forward and back may make it easier to listen for where the noise comes from. But with the whells turning freely they hydros should be quiet because they are doing almost no work. But it may show you if something is binding, and not turning freely. I'm not sure but as components wear naturally over their life they may slowly become more noisy. Not that they change noticably from hour to hour . Btw how many house are on the machine? I'd contact case and see if their tech will answer any question for you. Like what charge press should be and where to hook the guage. Problems common to this machine. Their feelings about what you describe. Oils that can be used. If they value their customers they should be willing to help a little for (almost) free I've never owned a case, so these sugestions are general in nature but could be applied to most any hydro driven loader. Maybe someone else can be of more help Ken

>> Does the noise come when you lift or dump the loader or does it make the noise when you drive the wheel, they all groan on the drives some, the harder it is to turn the tires, the more noise my bobcat makes, and more so at lower rpm. Thats my expierience.
Only when driving wheels (loader works fine)... the harder it is to turn, the groaning noise is even worse.... so pretty sure its in the pumps or motors.
>> Has this noise been there as long as you have owned the unit? Is it getting noticably worse, or are you not quite sure, but think so?
its had noise since i've had it.. not sure if getting worse. sometimes it sits for months, then i use it for a while and sits again..so hard to compare.
>> The functions (r and l drives, lift tilt) are smooth and powerful, or do they jerk and surge as they are moved? Air (cavitation) in the system would make the system jerky.
usually smooth and have power. sometimes/occasionally they will jerk (rip control lever out of my hand), and stall the machine... which may have just been fluid had gotten low.
Sometimes it seems like i'm putting as much hyd fluid in it, as diesel. :^)
>> Is the hyd tank oil level higher then the pump and hydros, if so a suppy line to the pump or hydros would leak oil out when the machine sits. Colapsed suction hoses and air getting in the suction side of the system will make the drives and lift feel jerky.
Hyd tank is inside the uprights(back half of machine), so they are above pumps. i need to clean the machine/belly pan.. so much dirt and old oil, its hard to see a leak.. and a suction line leak could be really small.
>> When you changed the filters did you cut them open and inspect for aluminum, steel or any other contamination.
No, but that sure is a good idea. i usually look through the oil and at the filter.. and nothing noticeable.. like metal chunks/shavings.
>> Can you find someone else with a 1845 to compare to.
Thats a good idea.. i know of one not too far away.
>> If the wrong oil was used, I don't believe this in itself would cause a noise. If the wrong oil cause something mechanical to tear itself apart, that could cause a noise. (the sound of the mechanical destruction) In this case your filters should be full of trash, and the system should not operate in a normal, powrful and smooth manner. Does it do it for both the right and left wheels and in both forward and reverse? Because the left and right are separate mechanical systems but the share the same oil, some plumbing, but if one acts different then the other its a sure sign of trouble. Putting the machine on blocks and running each side forward and back may make it easier to listen for where the noise comes from. But with the whells turning freely they hydros should be quiet because they are doing almost no work.
i've run it up on blocks before.. and like you said, its fairly quite then. i may do this again and see if something - motor/pump, etc is noiser (use a funnel up to your ear as megaphone to find the noise)
>> Btw how many house are on the machine?
This is old machine.. made around 1975 - 1980.. but not sure on hours.
i was wondering what the pumps and motors sound like as they get "older" and worn out? if this is just a sign of old age (like me)... i can tell that one of the pumps has been rebuilt/replaced (its a different color than the machine).. but no history on anything else and how many hours, etc.
>> I'd contact case and see if their tech will answer any question for you. Like what charge press should be and where to hook the guage. Problems common to this machine. Their feelings about what you describe. Oils that can be used. If they value their customers they should be willing to help a little for (almost) free I've never owned a case, so these sugestions are general in nature but could be applied to most any hydro driven loader. Maybe someone else can be of more help Ken
i need to call Case and check on the fluid types, additives, press readings at service points, etc... they should answer that at least.
Thanks Ken....

 

[tedf]

>> Does the noise come when you lift or dump the loader or does it make the noise when you drive the wheel, they all groan on the drives some, the harder it is to turn the tires, the more noise my bobcat makes, and more so at lower rpm. Thats my expierience.
Only when driving wheels (loader works fine)... the harder it is to turn, the groaning noise is even worse.... so pretty sure its in the pumps or motors.
>> Has this noise been there as long as you have owned the unit? Is it getting noticably worse, or are you not quite sure, but think so?
its had noise since i've had it.. not sure if getting worse. sometimes it sits for months, then i use it for a while and sits again..so hard to compare.
>> The functions (r and l drives, lift tilt) are smooth and powerful, or do they jerk and surge as they are moved? Air (cavitation) in the system would make the system jerky.
usually smooth and have power. sometimes/occasionally they will jerk (rip control lever out of my hand), and stall the machine... which may have just been fluid had gotten low.
Sometimes it seems like i'm putting as much hyd fluid in it, as diesel. :^)
>> Is the hyd tank oil level higher then the pump and hydros, if so a suppy line to the pump or hydros would leak oil out when the machine sits. Colapsed suction hoses and air getting in the suction side of the system will make the drives and lift feel jerky.
Hyd tank is inside the uprights(back half of machine), so they are above pumps. i need to clean the machine/belly pan.. so much dirt and old oil, its hard to see a leak.. and a suction line leak could be really small.
>> When you changed the filters did you cut them open and inspect for aluminum, steel or any other contamination.
No, but that sure is a good idea. i usually look through the oil and at the filter.. and nothing noticeable.. like metal chunks/shavings.
>> Can you find someone else with a 1845 to compare to.
Thats a good idea.. i know of one not too far away.
>> If the wrong oil was used, I don't believe this in itself would cause a noise. If the wrong oil cause something mechanical to tear itself apart, that could cause a noise. (the sound of the mechanical destruction) In this case your filters should be full of trash, and the system should not operate in a normal, powrful and smooth manner. Does it do it for both the right and left wheels and in both forward and reverse? Because the left and right are separate mechanical systems but the share the same oil, some plumbing, but if one acts different then the other its a sure sign of trouble. Putting the machine on blocks and running each side forward and back may make it easier to listen for where the noise comes from. But with the whells turning freely they hydros should be quiet because they are doing almost no work.
i've run it up on blocks before.. and like you said, its fairly quite then. i may do this again and see if something - motor/pump, etc is noiser (use a funnel up to your ear as megaphone to find the noise)
>> Btw how many house are on the machine?
This is old machine.. made around 1975 - 1980.. but not sure on hours.
i was wondering what the pumps and motors sound like as they get "older" and worn out? if this is just a sign of old age (like me)... i can tell that one of the pumps has been rebuilt/replaced (its a different color than the machine).. but no history on anything else and how many hours, etc.
>> I'd contact case and see if their tech will answer any question for you. Like what charge press should be and where to hook the guage. Problems common to this machine. Their feelings about what you describe. Oils that can be used. If they value their customers they should be willing to help a little for (almost) free I've never owned a case, so these sugestions are general in nature but could be applied to most any hydro driven loader. Maybe someone else can be of more help Ken
i need to call Case and check on the fluid types, additives, press readings at service points, etc... they should answer that at least.
Thanks Ken....

>> "HTO Additive required". My manual says to use 10W30 oil with 5% HTO additive.....I don't know if the HyTran fluid already has the necessary additives but from what they were telling me, it looks like fluid type could play a role.
i've been wondering on the fluid types ("TCH" fluid vs normal hyd fluid). i may check on this additive, and see if i can just add that to the fluid in my tank.. see if it helps. What does HTO stand for?
Where do you get the HTO additive? can i get it from auto parts/tractor supply ? or you have to go to Case?
Do you know what is the diff in R&O tractor hyd fluid and just 10w30 oil? are they actually the same thing?
Richard, thnx for the info.

 

[richard]

>> "HTO Additive required". My manual says to use 10W30 oil with 5% HTO additive.....I don't know if the HyTran fluid already has the necessary additives but from what they were telling me, it looks like fluid type could play a role.
i've been wondering on the fluid types ("TCH" fluid vs normal hyd fluid). i may check on this additive, and see if i can just add that to the fluid in my tank.. see if it helps. What does HTO stand for?
Where do you get the HTO additive? can i get it from auto parts/tractor supply ? or you have to go to Case?
Do you know what is the diff in R&O tractor hyd fluid and just 10w30 oil? are they actually the same thing?
Richard, thnx for the info.

Don't really know what the "HTO" stands for. Everywhere I went looking for it.......no one knew what I was talking about so I had to buy it from the Case dealer. My bobcat manual says if you don't have access to the Bobcat brand fluid to use 10W30 so they must be very similar. I know that even using a cheap 10W30 oil, it's still more expensive than using regular hydraulic fluid.

 

[skidsteer.ca]

Don't really know what the "HTO" stands for. Everywhere I went looking for it.......no one knew what I was talking about so I had to buy it from the Case dealer. My bobcat manual says if you don't have access to the Bobcat brand fluid to use 10W30 so they must be very similar. I know that even using a cheap 10W30 oil, it's still more expensive than using regular hydraulic fluid.

Std hydraulic oil ie Shells Tellus brand (or most standard hyd oils) is about the poorest quality of oils that are made. 10/30 or any motor oils is a step up, and 10/30 is fine to use in Bobcat brand machines, all I ever run. For your case, I'd be talking to that other owner you know, ask them about oils, addatives and noises. All hydro loaders make more noise as the hydros are worked harder, as far as my expieriece goes. Do your hydros make a equall amount of noise on both sides, and in both dirrections? Ken

 

[ksss]

Std hydraulic oil ie Shells Tellus brand (or most standard hyd oils) is about the poorest quality of oils that are made. 10/30 or any motor oils is a step up, and 10/30 is fine to use in Bobcat brand machines, all I ever run. For your case, I'd be talking to that other owner you know, ask them about oils, addatives and noises. All hydro loaders make more noise as the hydros are worked harder, as far as my expieriece goes. Do your hydros make a equall amount of noise on both sides, and in both dirrections? Ken

You need to use the HTO additive from CASE. Although your problems may be bigger than that. I would either take it to the dealer and diagnose the problem or flush the entire system, change the filters and add the correct additive.