Bucket tilt ok up/down not so much

[mike11]

Ok boys new findings today, I ran down to the local hydraulic shop and grabbed a few fittings to hook my pres test gauge onto my aux connection.
Here’s what I found. Now it’s cold as a witches tit here but still I had the heat on in the garage for a bit and let the machine run a few min before doing this. When the aux are activated I could hear a heavy strain on the engine which I would take as a good sign that the pump is pumping, I also hear a hiss from under the seat which tells me it’s also bypassing, at best I got a trickle from the aux connector. It wouldn’t move the needle I took the line right off and it was a slow trickle. With that being said and looking at the manual, the only place I can see there being an issue here is the main relief valve or something not being opened for flow in the jem valve at least as far as the aux goes, my jem
Is not hooked up there were no harnesses in this machine when I got it. The manual I have doesn’t show any wiring for the jem. I guess I need to figure out which sol on the jem I need alive for the primary aux flow then get or build a harness to fix and get the secondary aux flow up and flowing for hi flow
I did how ever find the correct manual to cover my machine which falls into a very small range of serial #s
I will be working on that tonight.

 

[ward]

Keep us posted, I only operated the equivalent of a 853 back in 1982 on a farm cleaning feed lots. oh yes hearing the engin go under load with the aux is a goood sign the pump is fine.

 

[mike11]

Ok I spent some time with it tonight, I got a Pres test off the aux hyd, 3000 psi at idle, I’m more than happy with that. I pulled the lift arm man release valve, seems to be fully seating and sealing ok, however I have one being delivered tomorrow it’s getting changed. I pulled the lift overweight bypass valve, seems fully seated, I can’t check the pop off Pres but was not able to move the ball with all my weight on it. At this point there’s not really much left from looking at the schematics, other than a check valve in the bucket release valve. I’m not thrilled with the condition of the exterior of the feed line to the control valve, if the inside is breaking down like the outside perhaps it’s partially collapsed or, another very likely scenario is the night I encounter this issue it was cold out, machine was running a while but fluid may still have been cold who knows, perhaps it had enough in the system to raise the bucket once and couldn’t replenish as fast as I wanted it to being that cold. I’m running aw32 hyd oil in the hydraulics. I’m dug in pretty deep so I think tomorrow I’m going to pull that line (which looks like it’s gonna be a lot of fun on the control valve side) and see what I find there. My guts telling me that may not be flowing enough. Im open to all ideas and suggestions.
Thanks

Is there a screen or filter anywhere between the pump and main control valve ??

 

[brdgbldr]

Ok I spent some time with it tonight, I got a Pres test off the aux hyd, 3000 psi at idle, I’m more than happy with that. I pulled the lift arm man release valve, seems to be fully seating and sealing ok, however I have one being delivered tomorrow it’s getting changed. I pulled the lift overweight bypass valve, seems fully seated, I can’t check the pop off Pres but was not able to move the ball with all my weight on it. At this point there’s not really much left from looking at the schematics, other than a check valve in the bucket release valve. I’m not thrilled with the condition of the exterior of the feed line to the control valve, if the inside is breaking down like the outside perhaps it’s partially collapsed or, another very likely scenario is the night I encounter this issue it was cold out, machine was running a while but fluid may still have been cold who knows, perhaps it had enough in the system to raise the bucket once and couldn’t replenish as fast as I wanted it to being that cold. I’m running aw32 hyd oil in the hydraulics. I’m dug in pretty deep so I think tomorrow I’m going to pull that line (which looks like it’s gonna be a lot of fun on the control valve side) and see what I find there. My guts telling me that may not be flowing enough. Im open to all ideas and suggestions.
Thanks

Is there a screen or filter anywhere between the pump and main control valve ??

There are tiny filters in some of the machines. You’ll have to look at the parts catalog and search “filter” then look at each schematic. You can check a box at the top that says “View Search Results Only” and this will eliminate all parts that don’t have search words in them. Also, if you click on the part in the list, it will highlight it on the schematic.
If you give me your serial number range I can help take a look.

It is also possible that you have a piece of debris stuck in the system blocking fluid. It normally gets stuck in a 90 degree fitting somewhere.

 

[ward]

I am wondering if you can take the linkage off the valve , do so with the arms lowered for safety, and use a bar to manualy stroke the vale it should not be all that hard to stroke it back and forth , then check the linkage to the pedels and the play in the pedels is there forward and aft movment in the pedels and all pins not wallard out, if I remember right the pedels move about twice to 3 times the stroke of the valve and a little play will go a long way in not stroking the control valve fully.

 

[mike11]

im about ready to go down now i will check it tonight, tonight i WILL get to the bottom of this, lol its not that complicated, how i see it is there needs to be 2 things to raise that boom oil and pressure, I know I have both but just not where i need it when i want, and theres not alot between the pump supply and the ram hoses to eliminate

 

[mike11]

Here’s what I did tonight I there’s not much left, I changed the manual release valve which was screwed up and needed changed anyway, pulled the lift weight check valve, everything ok, no dirt no water hole clean spring intact working well, pulled the suspect line off from the pump to the CV, nothing wrong in there. While it was apart the oil was in buckets near where my hot air furnace blows. Put it all back together went outside and put the bucket on after letting it run prob a 1/2 hr, picked the bucket up 1-1.5 times after that it would only raise it about 1/2”. Tilt is ok but won’t work when I try to use lift and tilt together. Let it sit a bit to see if there was a restriction and it would lift again after a min or two… nope. It’s back in the operating room again…. I’m running out of things to change or suspect. From the hydraulic schematic from what I saw unless I’m missing something there’s not much to it, oil goes from pump to valve….. if the main relief is closed it goes through the spools and returns unless a spool is open, from there to the man release valve and lift/tilt lock valves then out to the rams. Not a lot of places to loose pressure. Machines been in a 60* building for a few hours and oil was warm we can rule that out too

 

[brdgbldr]

Here’s what I did tonight I there’s not much left, I changed the manual release valve which was screwed up and needed changed anyway, pulled the lift weight check valve, everything ok, no dirt no water hole clean spring intact working well, pulled the suspect line off from the pump to the CV, nothing wrong in there. While it was apart the oil was in buckets near where my hot air furnace blows. Put it all back together went outside and put the bucket on after letting it run prob a 1/2 hr, picked the bucket up 1-1.5 times after that it would only raise it about 1/2”. Tilt is ok but won’t work when I try to use lift and tilt together. Let it sit a bit to see if there was a restriction and it would lift again after a min or two… nope. It’s back in the operating room again…. I’m running out of things to change or suspect. From the hydraulic schematic from what I saw unless I’m missing something there’s not much to it, oil goes from pump to valve….. if the main relief is closed it goes through the spools and returns unless a spool is open, from there to the man release valve and lift/tilt lock valves then out to the rams. Not a lot of places to loose pressure. Machines been in a 60* building for a few hours and oil was warm we can rule that out too

This is a long post and I can’t remember if this has been talked about before or not; is your auxiliary stuck in the open position?

The symptoms you have mentioned are the same as when the auxiliary detent is in the locked open position. Everything works but the lift and tilt are weak and act erratic. The auxiliary is locked in the open position by a detent ball in the main valve activated by pushing the right lever arm all the way to the right. To close the valve the right lever arm has to be pushed all the way to the left.

These can also get stuck if there is something loose or broken on the linkage.

 

[mike11]

This is a long post and I can’t remember if this has been talked about before or not; is your auxiliary stuck in the open position?

The symptoms you have mentioned are the same as when the auxiliary detent is in the locked open position. Everything works but the lift and tilt are weak and act erratic. The auxiliary is locked in the open position by a detent ball in the main valve activated by pushing the right lever arm all the way to the right. To close the valve the right lever arm has to be pushed all the way to the left.

These can also get stuck if there is something loose or broken on the linkage.

Not sure what you’re referencing, this unit had mechanical sticks, what lever arm are you referring to ???

 

[mike11]

Dug deeper and found a screen in the bottom of the resivoir tank that broke free from the filler neck at some point and was replaced, thought for sure that was it especially if the soldered part was blocking flow, bucket went up a few times with less effort each time then tuckered out eventually, and wouldn’t go up anymore. Made sure the tank was full before going out, cycled the boom up n down end to end prob 10+ times incase there was air in there and again after it quit lifting. Same end result. It bumps like it’s trying to lift but won’t, either like it’s bypassing or not getting enough fluid and is dry, pump does not seem to be starving.

 

[mike11]

Not sure what you’re referencing, this unit had mechanical sticks, what lever arm are you referring to ???

are you talking about the detent balls on the lift spool ??

 

[mike11]

i recently did spool seals, could something be messed up in my lift spool? i kinda rule that out cause itll work a few times, which again leads me to lack of fluid

 

[ZekeSkyree]

Brdgbldr might have a point. If the aux is engaged you will have bucket issues. Id push the right stick left and right and check the linkage.

 

[brdgbldr]

Not sure what you’re referencing, this unit had mechanical sticks, what lever arm are you referring to ???

The mechanical “stick” is the lever arm I am talking about.

The right “stick” not only moves forward and backward to engage the drive motor but also to the right and left to operate the auxiliary hydraulics.

When the right “stick” is moved all the way to the right a detent ball engages to keep the auxiliary hydraulics flowing to run things like a snow blower. You have to move the stick all the way to the left to disengage the detent and stop the continuous flow of the auxiliary.

 

[mike11]

My aux is electrically controlled there’s no mechanical connection from the stick to the control valve, it’s all done through the buttons and switches on top of the sticks.

 

[mike11]

I guess the aux spool could not be returning to center, I’d have to remove the end caps on the cv to check and confirm that. I’m running out of ideas here. Last night it raised the **** 3-4x weaker weaker each time till it stopped lifting, when hitting the pedal it’d try to raise it you could feel the bump of the boom going up and see it try to move that was it like it didn’t have any oil or it was bypassing with the slightest load on it. What’s strange is it worked then was less and less and less after a few cycles. With the bucket off it’ll go right up n down that tells me it’s loosing pressure. But why js it not consistent ?? Where would it bleed off and why gradual after a few cycles

 

[ward]

Do you by chance have a temerature gun if you do you can check around the machine on the cylinders to see if they are leaking internaly the leaker will have about a 20 degree temperature rise, also check under the seat adnormal internal leaks cause excess temperature as the energy is leaked off.
On another note the other day when you did the pressure test had you operated the machine to the point that it was having this issue then check the pressure?

 

[brdgbldr]

I guess the aux spool could not be returning to center, I’d have to remove the end caps on the cv to check and confirm that. I’m running out of ideas here. Last night it raised the **** 3-4x weaker weaker each time till it stopped lifting, when hitting the pedal it’d try to raise it you could feel the bump of the boom going up and see it try to move that was it like it didn’t have any oil or it was bypassing with the slightest load on it. What’s strange is it worked then was less and less and less after a few cycles. With the bucket off it’ll go right up n down that tells me it’s loosing pressure. But why js it not consistent ?? Where would it bleed off and why gradual after a few cycles

You could put a gage on the auxiliary output line and see if it is pressurizing while the auxiliary is off.

 

[mike11]

That it’s not doing

Do you by chance have a temerature gun if you do you can check around the machine on the cylinders to see if they are leaking internaly the leaker will have about a 20 degree temperature rise, also check under the seat adnormal internal leaks cause excess temperature as the energy is leaked off.
On another note the other day when you did the pressure test had you operated the machine to the point that it was having this issue then check the pressure?

ward I did the internal cylinder leak test today as per the manual, the left cylinder left a little puddle after a few secs, the right side stayed dry, so there is minimal or what appears to be minimal leaking from the left, would that be enough to cause this condition ? How much of a leak is usable?? Dealer near me has a seal kit tomorrow I’m gonna grab it and put it in

 

[mike11]

I would think it’ll overcome the lil leak this one has, another thing that’s bothering me, I had the spoils out for spoil valve seals. Is there a possibility they are in 180* out as in upside down ?? The passages on them seem the be the same all around. I’ll check that later by disconnecting the linkage and t turn jt 180*.
Another thing I noticed tonight when workin on the rams is in the down position it has force and considerable, it’ll pick the machine off the ground, I never noticed that before cause all the way down the bucket is just sitting on the ground. The float doesn’t seem to work and I press on the pedal trying to get it into float position it kept apply down force. What if anything could be messed up in the spool ???

Thanks guys