I bought this machine used knowing that it had some issues. Main issue being that it would not start. When we got it home and started getting into it the more we took apart the more problems we found. To list the issues: - Locked up turbo with oil in the intake side (Does not appear to be a runaway) - Heavily damaged air cleaner housing - Timing belt jumped a tooth - Blown head gasket - Cracked exhaust manifold - No muffler - Missing fuel shutoff solenoid - Hole in the bottom of the oil pan - Worn drive belt - Other small items like bad wiring connections etc. Anyways we pulled the engine to inspect all aspects. The lower engine was still in good shape, cylinder walls smooth and clean, bearings all good, etc. The head was good, just needed cleaning. What we have done: - Cleaned the engine top to bottom - Rebuilt the turbo - replaced exhaust manifold - replaced air cleaner housing - installed new fuel shutoff solenoid - new head and manifold gaskets - new filters all the way around - new rear main, front main, and front cam seals - new oil pan - new timing belt kit, timed with timing pins - new fuel lift pump. Reinstalled the engine and still will not start. The engine is turning over but will not fire. We get smoke from the exhaust so we know some fuel is burning off. We purged air from the fuel lines. We cracked the injection line to make sure fuel is coming out, all to success. But still no fire. Our thought is not enough fuel is reaching the cylinder. Any thoughts on how to check? What kind of stream should be coming from the injection pumps? Maybe we are looking over something you guys may have experienced. Let me know your thoughts. Thanks in advance.
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If you can pull an injector out, remove it and turn the high pressure line so it hangs out the back. Attach the injector to the line and crank the engine, see if you get a spray. It should not form droplets but there should be a nice fan pattern. If its not doing that, its possible your injectors need doing up, if its not spraying you will get smoke, but its not atomised so it will not burn. Its not a bad idea to check them all this way, even if you do only one at a time.
Its just a go or no go test. It won't tell you what the cracking pressure is though, but a good starting point.
Have you given it a quick sniff of ether? or even a spray of WD40 while cranking? see if it gives a quick burst of life. Even a compression test?
Its just a go or no go test. It won't tell you what the cracking pressure is though, but a good starting point.
Have you given it a quick sniff of ether? or even a spray of WD40 while cranking? see if it gives a quick burst of life. Even a compression test?
SkidRoe
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I fully agree with Tazza, with the abount of motor work that you had to do, I would highly recommend getting the injectors checked out / rebuilt.
How many hours are on this machine? If it is around 5000 or more, they are likely due.
Cheers,
SR
Thanks for responding so quickly. The machine shows 4600 hours, but this is not the original engine, so I was told. We suspected a fuel injector issue so you guys are reassuring that fear. We did let them soak in clean diesel for a week while replacement parts were coming in, but understandably if they are completely gummed up inside that may be useless. We will try spraying the injectors as Tazza suggested and see what we get. We did try a quick shot of starting fluid but really did not notice any effect, there may have been a slight hiccup but nothing significant or really noticeable. One quick question on a thought we had. Is there supposed to be any kind of restriction valve on the backside of the injector pumps feedline? There was a funny setup on the return line when we got it where there was a T connector going back to the fuel tank and the off shoot was just just a capped line. So right now from the fuel feed line runs straight down to the fuel tank after the pumps. Our thought was maybe a lack of pressure in the fuel line being without any kind of restriction in the return line? Thanks again
SkidRoe
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There should be no restriction in the fuel return line. The back pressure required for the injector to "blow off" at the correct pressure is dictated by the spring inside the injector.
It is kind of interesting that you cannot get it to fire on at least one cylinder, especially when using starting fluid. Have you done a compression test? Have you tried squirting a bit of oil in the cylinders while you have the injectors out? Also, did you install new rings while you had the engine apart?
I know, more questions than answers...
SkidRoe
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One other thought, how is your valve clearance?
Yeah I expected more questions than answers, these suggestions on what to check is what we were looking for though. My brother is the mechanic and made the decisions on what the engine needed done. I know enough to hold these conversations, so thanks again. The piston rings were not replaced, not sure why, he said everything with the cylinders are good. We have not tried squirting oil in the fuel injectors while out. And I don't have an answer on the valve clearances, I know he looked at them and adjusted a couple of them. We won't be able to get back to it until the weekend, but this gives us more things to check out and things I can make sure he checks for spec. I will get back to you when we have a chance to check everything.
So we had access to an injector tester and found that one of the 4 injectors was bad and not firing at all. Other 3 spray fine. Memo-omega quoted me a new injector for $90 so I will be ordering a new one shortly. However since it appears that this would not be the sole culprit of our problem we do want to test the compression. Do you know where we can get the adapter to fit the injector ports? It looks like the pic on Harbor Frieght's kit shows an adapter that might work, anyone used their kit? But also we don't need the entire kit, just the adapter. We have a tester with ample pressure reading. Once we test compression and check valve clearances we should know where the problem lies. Any other ideas on where to check after that if those are somehow in good order?
New here...... But Diesels are very particular about speed at which they are cranked. Check voltage and amp draw while cranking. I don't know the exact numbers are, but make sure battery is up to the job. Strange that it does not fire with ether or WD40. sstec
Ok so I have an update. Apparently the presumption that the lower end of the engine was good was a mistake. Hey you live and learn, only thing wasted was some time and 3.5 gallons of oil. We tested compression and was getting 200-300lbs across the cylinders. We then pumped air into the cylinders and found at least 2 leaking valves and 2 of the cylinders were letting massive air by the piston rings. So long story short the engine is back out. We are taking the head out tomorrow to the machine shop and ordering a piston ring set and valves. Hopefully next weekend will be a little more successful.
SkidRoe
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Ahhh, crap!! I was hoping for your sake (and your wallet's sake) that it would be something simple.
Are you sure that just a set of rings will fix it? If you have the motor tore that far down, you might as well take the block to the machine shop and have the cylinders measured. You will likely also need to have the ridge at the top of the cylinders reamed so that you can get the pistons out.
Well, on the bright side, at least you will know for sure that you have a healthy motor.
Best of luck as always,
SR
Yeah we measured the cylinders and all is still in spec, short of the worn rings. The cylinder walls are actually in really good shape all things considered. What we think happened is when the previous owner locked up the turbo that it scorched the oil and coked the rings and valves. We are going to hone the cylinders and install the new rings. My brother has access to a head machine so he is going to machine the head and install the new valves. We also found the crank journals to be worn .13mm so we are replacing the rod bearings after having a shop grind the crank to allow for the new .25 over rod bearings. Everything else in the block has been measured and found to be in good order. So yes the bright side is once all is said and done here we will have a good motor and should get another 4600 hours with proper upkeep. Now we are just keeping our fingers crossed that the hydraulics are all in good order! Thanks for the input ill be sure to post on the end result.
skidsteer.ca
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This sounds like my on going battle with a Yamaha Badger atv for my sons. Wishing you luck, one thing for sure, there is only so much to fix!
Ken
Are we talking about that duetz engine? Did you properly time the injection pumps, and the timing belt with all the duetz tools? This is the most critical parts of that engine.
Also when your timing belt jumped, it probably took out 1 or 2 pushrods, these engines have no interference valves. they hit the pistons when the timing belt skips or breaks.
Sorry one more thing about these old duetz's , when they sit for a while those injection pumps lock up. Clean them up real good, expensive to replace.
Hi there new to the forum, hopefully I can offer something, does that engine have glow plugs? With low compression you are going to need some heat in there, also pump timing would be my thought. The advice to take aout an in injector is good but dangerous, make sure you have glasses on, I know of a fuel system specialist who lost an eye from an injector shooting a tiny stream of diesel under extreme pressure. Anyway some things to look at after you decide what to do with the bottom end. Good luck - Rob
SkidRoe
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Glad to hear that the whole bottom end is being looked at, I was kind of wondering about the crank.
Here's to the hydraulics being healthy. Like Ken said, there is only so much to fix until you have been into everything. Tazza is a good resource if the pumps or motors are stuffed up. Them, like the engine, are rebuildable.
Cheers,
SR
Well so far great news. After putting the engine back together with freshly ground crank, new main and rod bearings, rebuilt head, a few cranks to bleed the fuel system and she starts up and runs beautifully! Thanks for all the suggestions on troubleshooting. Our main issue appeared to be first and foremost lack of compression all along. Whoever built this engine last cut some corners and didn't even appear to use the correct piston rings. Oh well thats the past. Now I have some relatively minor things to fix. Apparantly my brake solenoid is bad. It will let loose but takes 3-5 on/off sequences to get it to. I have bobcat ordering me one. I also have to find the root cause of my chaincase to leak. Bobcat told me the seals around the drive motors have been common for this problem. But I opened the chaincase cover that holds the brake solenoid, dropped the spring and pin of the solenoid into the depths and found there to not be any oil sitting down there. One other note, on the bottom of the chaincase belly there is about a ping pong ball sized weld material on what seems to be a dent from inside the chaincase. To me it appears someone snapped the chain at some point and the weld was their fix to plug the hole. I think there is a slight leak through the weld. But other than the drive motor seals, this weld, and the drain plug where else would I check for a leak? Sorry for the long post but one more thing. This is throwing my Bobcat dealer off as they are currently trying to talk to the bobcat parts rep for the area to figure out what is going on here. I had to replace the air cleaner housing. The one that was in it was melted and full of oil residue. Bobcat ordered a new one for me and I went to install it and the adapter that the PCV line connects to won't screw in, wrong size port on the housing. What is throwing Bobcat off is that my machine has BOSS and their systems aren't giving that PCV adapter on units with the BOSS option. The adapter I am referring to is a 90 degree fitting that threads into the side of the outlet elbow on the back of the housing that heads to the turbo, the BOSS air sensor threads into the top of this housing elbow. This fitting connects to the hose that comes out of the top of the PCV module. At least this is how it was hooked up before. If something sounds wrong here with my description please let me know because at this point I don't trust that anything was assembeled correctly before I got this thing. I am hoping I can just get this 90 degree fitting and be done, but I need to know if this is assembeled correctly before I call this rebuild complete.
