443 Axles, bearings, seals

[skidsteerdan]

Hello, Thanks to all the posts on this forum, I was able to get quite far on my repairs of my new-to-me 443. I was able to remove the chains, sprockets, axles and seals with minimal drama and only my current 4 letter word vocabulary. Each axle has two bearings and one seal. Each of these bearings (all 8 of them) have totally broken down, leaving the rollers and cages free floating. Each of the seals were pretty badly damaged. The chain case had a lot of water and even pine needles inside. Fortunately, I am doing the work outside and it was below freezing so removing the water was a matter of tossing out chunks of ice. The chains, sprockets and most other parts are still serviceable. It appears this unit has had the bearings serviced before as each axle has a sleeve installed. One of these sleeves on one of the axles is in very bad shape and clearly needs replacing. I have ordered the seal kit from bobcat that comes with a replacement seal and sleeve. Using this brand new sleeve, I should be able to walk into napa/autozone/etc. and find identical sleeves for much cheaper. Which leads to my question - is it worth the time of removing the other 3, apparently good condition sleeves, and replacing them with brand new ones? Since I could likely find a much cheaper match from autozone, it's probably worth the money but extracting these is not going to be easy by the way it looks. I will attempt to post some photos.

 

[skidsteerdan]

Well guys, sorry. The forum doesn't seem to work with chrome or firefox or even IE to post in HTML mode so it's just big walls of text I guess. Here are some images:

First one is the bad sleeve, second one is the good one.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/6i4g90fq2nagjr6/2020-01-21 16.44.34.jpg?dl=0 and https://www.dropbox.com/s/xolqkv0ngg8csmq/2020-01-21 16.44.37.jpg?dl=0.

 

[Tazza]

Well guys, sorry. The forum doesn't seem to work with chrome or firefox or even IE to post in HTML mode so it's just big walls of text I guess. Here are some images:





First one is the bad sleeve, second one is the good one.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/6i4g90fq2nagjr6/2020-01-21%2016.44.34.jpg?dl=0 and https://www.dropbox.com/s/xolqkv0ngg8csmq/2020-01-21%2016.44.37.jpg?dl=0.

Wow, that is some serious damage.
If it was me, i'd leave the good sleeves alone.
I did the seals and bearings on a 453 years ago, it was in really bad shape, the bearings were totally gone, it was actually rubbing on the axle tube, my sprockets were fine, the chains were not. The chain case had stress cracks where the drive motors mounted too, it was really unhappy.

 

[flyerdan]

Wow, that is some serious damage.
If it was me, i'd leave the good sleeves alone.
I did the seals and bearings on a 453 years ago, it was in really bad shape, the bearings were totally gone, it was actually rubbing on the axle tube, my sprockets were fine, the chains were not. The chain case had stress cracks where the drive motors mounted too, it was really unhappy.

Those dropbox links are something else, took a bit of doing to get those to parse.
You know that you have to replace the one anyway, depending on how difficult it is and if the others can be burnished up to serviceable should determine whether you replace them. Those are probably stuck on with some type of locktite, I'd chuck it in the lathe and turn it slow while putting low heat to it, you might get it to come off fairly easy that way.
You'll want to make sure there are no raised scars that can damage the new sleeve, they are pretty fragile during installation.

 

[skidsteerdan]

Those dropbox links are something else, took a bit of doing to get those to parse.
You know that you have to replace the one anyway, depending on how difficult it is and if the others can be burnished up to serviceable should determine whether you replace them. Those are probably stuck on with some type of locktite, I'd chuck it in the lathe and turn it slow while putting low heat to it, you might get it to come off fairly easy that way.
You'll want to make sure there are no raised scars that can damage the new sleeve, they are pretty fragile during installation.

Thanks guys, especially flyerdan for fixing up my post and working with those dropbox links. The %20s in the URL probably through everything off. Disclaimer: I am a cloud engineer by day, so I've done things like that no fewer than millions of times. Thanks to Tazza too, I read many posts on this forum prior to this post and your advice has been critical in helping me make it this far. I will double check all of the sleeves to ensure they are tip top and will leave the good ones alone. This is mainly because I don't have a lathe, although I do want one, I don't have the space.

 

[skidsteerdan]

Thanks guys, especially flyerdan for fixing up my post and working with those dropbox links. The %20s in the URL probably through everything off. Disclaimer: I am a cloud engineer by day, so I've done things like that no fewer than millions of times. Thanks to Tazza too, I read many posts on this forum prior to this post and your advice has been critical in helping me make it this far. I will double check all of the sleeves to ensure they are tip top and will leave the good ones alone. This is mainly because I don't have a lathe, although I do want one, I don't have the space.

Thought I'd post an update: It turns out I wasn't skilled enough to separate/pull the bearing from the axle without damaging the sleeve on the remaining axles, so it turns out the question was moot - I do have to replace the sleeves. Fortunately, bobcat still has them as part of the "seal kit" part number 6592942. I ordered 4 of them and bobcat will have them to me this week. I have been carefully cleaning every part and taking plenty of pictures so I will post them when I am done. For anyone else doing this, here's what I would have wanted to know right away: The procedure is fairly well documented in the service manual which you can get from ebay (Don't forget to ask for the digital copy!). You don't need bobcat special tools, I think just about every tool is rentable from autozone/advanced auto/napa/oreilly. You will need the bearing separator, slide hammer, bushing/seal driver, "front wheel bearing puller" and perhaps a few more. I did need to purchase the rear bearing puller from harbor freight ($25) and slightly grind down the smallest piece in order for it to fit in the shaft to pull the outer bearing races. Also, I bought the 24" heavy duty pry bar from HF for about $6 to knock out the inner bearing races - this tool worked perfectly for this and I was done in 5 minutes. Also I bought a 5/8 thread rod/nuts/washers and used a bushing from the front wheel puller to crank in the inner bearing races.

 

[skidsteerdan]

Thought I'd post an update: It turns out I wasn't skilled enough to separate/pull the bearing from the axle without damaging the sleeve on the remaining axles, so it turns out the question was moot - I do have to replace the sleeves. Fortunately, bobcat still has them as part of the "seal kit" part number 6592942. I ordered 4 of them and bobcat will have them to me this week. I have been carefully cleaning every part and taking plenty of pictures so I will post them when I am done. For anyone else doing this, here's what I would have wanted to know right away: The procedure is fairly well documented in the service manual which you can get from ebay (Don't forget to ask for the digital copy!). You don't need bobcat special tools, I think just about every tool is rentable from autozone/advanced auto/napa/oreilly. You will need the bearing separator, slide hammer, bushing/seal driver, "front wheel bearing puller" and perhaps a few more. I did need to purchase the rear bearing puller from harbor freight ($25) and slightly grind down the smallest piece in order for it to fit in the shaft to pull the outer bearing races. Also, I bought the 24" heavy duty pry bar from HF for about $6 to knock out the inner bearing races - this tool worked perfectly for this and I was done in 5 minutes. Also I bought a 5/8 thread rod/nuts/washers and used a bushing from the front wheel puller to crank in the inner bearing races.

There is one question though, the service manual says I need MEL1205 Seal tool and here is the picture from the manual. I do not understand why I need this tool, nor it's purpose. Is it to protect the seal from crushing while I am installing the axle? Is there a suggestion for what to do if I don't have the tool?

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ccd8p863oinc8u2/install_tool.png?dl=0

 

[flyerdan]

There is one question though, the service manual says I need MEL1205 Seal tool and here is the picture from the manual. I do not understand why I need this tool, nor it's purpose. Is it to protect the seal from crushing while I am installing the axle? Is there a suggestion for what to do if I don't have the tool?

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ccd8p863oinc8u2/install_tool.png?dl=0

Normally when you install a seal you can get all around the face of it and press or drive it in with a seal driver (if you're a posh shop, if you're like most of us you use a socket just a tad smaller than the outside of the seal).
With the seal between the axle flange and the bearing, there would be no way to press the seal in on the outside edge. Just shoving the axle in will result in damaging the sealing lips, and probably wind up with it in crooked and leaking.
I had initially thought that one might employ something like a bearing separator turned backwards, but looking at how they used a 4 piece system, there would probably be clearance issues with a one piece.
A one piece thin enough to get out once the axle was installed wouldn't have sufficient rigidity to install the seal correctly; the Bobcat design addresses those problems. If there was an better way to do it, they would have found it, I'd imagine

 

[skidsteerdan]

Normally when you install a seal you can get all around the face of it and press or drive it in with a seal driver (if you're a posh shop, if you're like most of us you use a socket just a tad smaller than the outside of the seal).
With the seal between the axle flange and the bearing, there would be no way to press the seal in on the outside edge. Just shoving the axle in will result in damaging the sealing lips, and probably wind up with it in crooked and leaking.
I had initially thought that one might employ something like a bearing separator turned backwards, but looking at how they used a 4 piece system, there would probably be clearance issues with a one piece.
A one piece thin enough to get out once the axle was installed wouldn't have sufficient rigidity to install the seal correctly; the Bobcat design addresses those problems. If there was an better way to do it, they would have found it, I'd imagine

Thanks flyerdan, that's helpful. I may try to fashion something out of the old seals and perhaps some wood to accomplish it. The trouble will be in knowing the width of it, but I'll get something sorted.

 

[skidsteerdan]

Thanks flyerdan, that's helpful. I may try to fashion something out of the old seals and perhaps some wood to accomplish it. The trouble will be in knowing the width of it, but I'll get something sorted.

Update: All finished! New bearings/races/seals in place. Not so hard to seat the seals because the speedisleeve has a flange that pulls in and seats the seal perfectly. Assembled it all with new glow plugs, fuel/hydro filters, oil all around and a new boot for the parking brake linkage, which is what I suspect led to so much water in the chaincase. I found using the forum that a "Massey Ferguson 360 tractor boot" is exactly what I needed to replace the boot because bobcat doesn't make them anymore. I've only test-driven about 3 feet back and forth because there's so much snow here in Colorado I'd rather get a feel for how it drives dry before I take it through the snow. Well, that and because I did all the work outside and I'd like to see if I left anything laying about (bolts, etc) before I really test it.