Mixing 10w30 with black gold?

[HanSolo]

My 834 lost the clamp on the charge hose off the tank today. Dumped all my hydraulic oil. the good news is it was just a loose band clamp and I had the hose back on in a snap. I only had about 4 gal. of the Bobcat hydraulic fluid "black gold". That wasn't enough to fill it back to proper level but enough to get it back to it's parking spot safely. What off the shelf oil can I use to keep working this weekend? I've read 10w30 works but just wanted to see what you guys have mixed with the Bobcat fluid.

 

[Tazza]

As your machine isn't under warranty any more, there is no problem adding different oil like that.

 

[HanSolo]

As your machine isn't under warranty any more, there is no problem adding different oil like that.

Copy that Tazza but what is black gold? Synthetic? Conventional? It smells like synthetic to me but who knows?

 

[Tazza]

Copy that Tazza but what is black gold? Synthetic? Conventional? It smells like synthetic to me but who knows?

I just use 20W40, never used black gold, my wallet thanks me for it

 

[HanSolo]

I just use 20W40, never used black gold, my wallet thanks me for it

I'm just cautious about mixing any oil. I've heard some bad things about mixing conventional with synthetic. I broke down and bought more Bobcat. Better safe than sorry.

 

[Bobcatdan]

I'm just cautious about mixing any oil. I've heard some bad things about mixing conventional with synthetic. I broke down and bought more Bobcat. Better safe than sorry.

You can b put 10w30 and it should be fine. The biggest problem with using engine oil in hydrostat is it does not have wear additives for the swash plates. I know guys who run it with no problems, but if your hydro goes belly up, I warn you. On a side note we sell bobcat hydraulic fluid absolutly as cheap as we can to compete. $30 for 2.5 gallons. We buy 300 cases at a time to get a better price.

 

[Tigerhaze]

You can b put 10w30 and it should be fine. The biggest problem with using engine oil in hydrostat is it does not have wear additives for the swash plates. I know guys who run it with no problems, but if your hydro goes belly up, I warn you. On a side note we sell bobcat hydraulic fluid absolutly as cheap as we can to compete. $30 for 2.5 gallons. We buy 300 cases at a time to get a better price.

Dan-
Just out of curiousity, I know that the manufacturer information for my Model 630 (a hydrostat model) specified use of 10w30. With respect to the wear addditives, is there a design difference that makes the 630 less suusceptible to the swash plate wear in that model or was that something they determined over time was an issue, after that recommendation?

 

[OldMachinist]

Dan-
Just out of curiousity, I know that the manufacturer information for my Model 630 (a hydrostat model) specified use of 10w30. With respect to the wear addditives, is there a design difference that makes the 630 less suusceptible to the swash plate wear in that model or was that something they determined over time was an issue, after that recommendation?

The EPA had zinc/phosphorus removed from USA engine oils. Their role in oil is as an anti-wear additive but they shorten the life of catalytic converters. Hydraulic and hydrostatic oils still have them. So back when Bobcat used to say you could use 10w30 engine oil the oil was different.
This is Bobcat's official statement on oil.
"Bobcat Hydraulic/Hydrostatic Fluid is specially blended for use with Bobcat hydraulic and hydrostatic systems. Bobcat Fluid has been developed to meet the growing demands placed on hydraulic components, while engine oil is designed to meet requirements for use as an engine lubricant. Because of this, engine oil is no longer an acceptable alternative fluid for Bobcat hydraulic and hydrostatic systems. Viscosity. Engine oil viscosity is typically much higher than the acceptable limit of hydraulic fluid. Hydraulic fluid is designed for high pressure applications and with viscosity to operate effectively throughout a wide temperature range. Additives. Bobcat Fluid contains more zinc and phosphorus anti-wear additives than other brands of hydraulic fluid. Zinc and phosphorus adhere to metal surfaces of hydraulic components and act as a coating to separate moving parts. Additives in engine oils do not have the same anti-wear properties. Demulsibility. Under operating conditions hydraulic fluid is designed to separate water, engine oils typically absorb water. Foaming. Most engine oil is not formulated to prevent foaming. Foam is a contaminate that lowers performance, decreases filtration and can cause premature hydraulic component failure."

With all that said I use universal tractor hydraulic hydrostatic fluid most of the time but if I need to top off and don't have that I use 20w50 engine oil. 20w50 along with several other viscosities are exempt from the EPA rule and contain much higher zinc/phosphorus levels.

 

[Tigerhaze]

The EPA had zinc/phosphorus removed from USA engine oils. Their role in oil is as an anti-wear additive but they shorten the life of catalytic converters. Hydraulic and hydrostatic oils still have them. So back when Bobcat used to say you could use 10w30 engine oil the oil was different.
This is Bobcat's official statement on oil.
"Bobcat Hydraulic/Hydrostatic Fluid is specially blended for use with Bobcat hydraulic and hydrostatic systems. Bobcat Fluid has been developed to meet the growing demands placed on hydraulic components, while engine oil is designed to meet requirements for use as an engine lubricant. Because of this, engine oil is no longer an acceptable alternative fluid for Bobcat hydraulic and hydrostatic systems. Viscosity. Engine oil viscosity is typically much higher than the acceptable limit of hydraulic fluid. Hydraulic fluid is designed for high pressure applications and with viscosity to operate effectively throughout a wide temperature range. Additives. Bobcat Fluid contains more zinc and phosphorus anti-wear additives than other brands of hydraulic fluid. Zinc and phosphorus adhere to metal surfaces of hydraulic components and act as a coating to separate moving parts. Additives in engine oils do not have the same anti-wear properties. Demulsibility. Under operating conditions hydraulic fluid is designed to separate water, engine oils typically absorb water. Foaming. Most engine oil is not formulated to prevent foaming. Foam is a contaminate that lowers performance, decreases filtration and can cause premature hydraulic component failure."

With all that said I use universal tractor hydraulic hydrostatic fluid most of the time but if I need to top off and don't have that I use 20w50 engine oil. 20w50 along with several other viscosities are exempt from the EPA rule and contain much higher zinc/phosphorus levels.

Thanks for the reply- I have seen this same issue (ZDDP) for engine oils discussed on another bulletin board with regards to protecting older diesel engines but hadn't put two and two together on this issue.
One solution on the ZDDP issue raised on that other board was adding a small amount of engine assesmbly lube to engine oil to bump up the Zinc content. It would seem that the same idea could be applied to either engine oil or UTHF used in the hydraulic systems for added protection similar to the "Bobcat Gold", but not sure of the dosage rate.
Anyhow it sounds like I should consider replacing with UTHF at some point in my 630 for the hydraulic system-with the price of engine oil it seems like it could save money overe time as well. Is there a preferred way of getting the old engine oil out of the hydraulic system? I think I remember reading about using a coupling on the auxillary hydraulic to dump the oil but couldn't find that post again.

 

[Bobcatdan]

Thanks for the reply- I have seen this same issue (ZDDP) for engine oils discussed on another bulletin board with regards to protecting older diesel engines but hadn't put two and two together on this issue.
One solution on the ZDDP issue raised on that other board was adding a small amount of engine assesmbly lube to engine oil to bump up the Zinc content. It would seem that the same idea could be applied to either engine oil or UTHF used in the hydraulic systems for added protection similar to the "Bobcat Gold", but not sure of the dosage rate.
Anyhow it sounds like I should consider replacing with UTHF at some point in my 630 for the hydraulic system-with the price of engine oil it seems like it could save money overe time as well. Is there a preferred way of getting the old engine oil out of the hydraulic system? I think I remember reading about using a coupling on the auxillary hydraulic to dump the oil but couldn't find that post again.

I never played with this, but to my knowledge there is an anti wear additive you can buy and add to engine oil to bring it up to snuff. To my knowledge Deere still runs 10w30 in their system.

 

[Tazza]

I never played with this, but to my knowledge there is an anti wear additive you can buy and add to engine oil to bring it up to snuff. To my knowledge Deere still runs 10w30 in their system.

I would have thought the same, as long as the additive is right for a hydraulic/hydrostatic system.
I know a guy that ran skid steers years ago, his dealer for oil said to use this new fancy copper additive. It was added and trashed the entire system soon after.

 

[HanSolo]

I would have thought the same, as long as the additive is right for a hydraulic/hydrostatic system.
I know a guy that ran skid steers years ago, his dealer for oil said to use this new fancy copper additive. It was added and trashed the entire system soon after.

Update - I'm averaging about 2 quarts lost per 8 hours operation. The machine seems to loose more when using the loader bucket than when using the backhoe attachment. It does make me think it's bad seals in the control block. The oil is flowing from the front of the engine compartment, on the motor plate, to the back. Local Bobcat is getting used to me picking up 5 gal. every other weekend - OUCH! I probably won't get around to fixing the leak until I finish the new leech field. I'm about halfway through digging 700' of trench.

 

[Tazza]

Update - I'm averaging about 2 quarts lost per 8 hours operation. The machine seems to loose more when using the loader bucket than when using the backhoe attachment. It does make me think it's bad seals in the control block. The oil is flowing from the front of the engine compartment, on the motor plate, to the back. Local Bobcat is getting used to me picking up 5 gal. every other weekend - OUCH! I probably won't get around to fixing the leak until I finish the new leech field. I'm about halfway through digging 700' of trench.

I bet that sure is adding up.
You need to get the cab up and give it a good pressure wash. I'd suspect the control block seals or pump seal. When it's clean, it's far easier to find the source of the leak.
A job for when you are done doing your trenching, that sure is a long trench!

 

[HanSolo]

I bet that sure is adding up.
You need to get the cab up and give it a good pressure wash. I'd suspect the control block seals or pump seal. When it's clean, it's far easier to find the source of the leak.
A job for when you are done doing your trenching, that sure is a long trench!

Yeah, I can see a good pressure washer as my next tool purchase The trenching is actually a series of 12" and 36" wide trenches for a septic tank leech field with surrounding curtain drain. The 36" wide and 24" deep is tedious to dig with a 12" bucket but I like having that size for installing the 4" drainage pipe.

 

[Tazza]

Yeah, I can see a good pressure washer as my next tool purchase The trenching is actually a series of 12" and 36" wide trenches for a septic tank leech field with surrounding curtain drain. The 36" wide and 24" deep is tedious to dig with a 12" bucket but I like having that size for installing the 4" drainage pipe.

It sure can take time, especially if your dirt is soft and sticks to the bucket. I had the fun of digging a 50m trench for power to my shed a few years back. The dirt was clay and shale and took me a few days to get through it.