FYI: BOSS (Bobcat Operation Sensing System) Availability

[TriHonu]

I thought I would put this out for anyone that is considering purchasing a loader with the BOSS option. The BOSS option was available on the C and F series loaders. You can easily identify them; they will have a digital display instead of gauges in the cab.
I found someone selling a new BOSS control module on Ebay yesterday. The bid was only at $20.00. (The current cost for a controller is over $700.) I figured for that kind of money, I might like to have a spare on the shelf. I called my dealer and asked if the control modules were generic or specific to a particular application.
The Parts Manager told me there are 3 different modules for the 763. He looked up a couple other models and found there are multiple modules for each or the models he checked. The Service Manager told me they are different depending on what sensors are installed on the engine and hydraulics/hydrostatics.
I asked if he could cross reference the number from the one for sale on Ebay. The controller has a sticker with a 19 digit number number on it. He told me he couldn't cross reference the number in the computer and he didn't know of any way to identify what loader the controller was made for.
He then gave me the BAD NEWS: there are some BOSS controllers you can't get any more because they are out of stock and Bobcat is having a problem finding a company to manufacture them.

Considering it is old technology, most C and F series machines did not have the BOSS option so there is limited demand for them.
I have not had a problem with mine, however if I do, a rewiring job may have to be done.

 

[Fishfiles]

After the hurricane flooded a lot of machinery I had alot of work salavaging them , one 773 I remember took almost 4 months for a BOSS box to become available from the dealer as like you said it was no longer available , and it was finally made by another supplier to Bobcat , it didn't look anything like the original and there were a lot of problems to iron out and some that never did get ironed out , but the machine still works

 

[Tazza]

After the hurricane flooded a lot of machinery I had alot of work salavaging them , one 773 I remember took almost 4 months for a BOSS box to become available from the dealer as like you said it was no longer available , and it was finally made by another supplier to Bobcat , it didn't look anything like the original and there were a lot of problems to iron out and some that never did get ironed out , but the machine still works

Thats a good reason to stay far away from machines with the BOSS system installed......
Don't some of them even need to be programmed by the dealer these days?

 

[mllud]

Thats a good reason to stay far away from machines with the BOSS system installed......
Don't some of them even need to be programmed by the dealer these days?

Its a shame when they manufacture machinery that is still usually totally functional and a nickel / dime piece of computer board shuts it down.I had to go around the electronics on my lx865. My reasons were financial.Companys like bobcat /new holland should have to back their machinery with reasonably priced electronics. 700.00 for a comp. board that cant cost over 50 to manufacture.they will tell you your machine is obsolite when they stop making a single curcit board,I got some good info. from this forum on aftermarket engine protection sytems. and you can wire your safety switches in series with your fuel shut off. My new holland dealer told me I my lx865 couldnt run without that comp. board. I just smiled and thanked them for their time. Keep your safety switches in tact for obvious reason. Mike

 

[skidsteer.ca]

Thats a good reason to stay far away from machines with the BOSS system installed......
Don't some of them even need to be programmed by the dealer these days?

Tazza, once you get into the G and K series the dealer has to program the serial number and machine options into the comp. Mine forgot to activate my "bucket positioning" (self leveling) option I have, so I have to sent the computer back to them, they have to stick it into a loader I'm told. Or I can run a power wire to it on a toggle switch.
Go figure why something so minor has to be a pita.
Ken

 

[Tazza]

Tazza, once you get into the G and K series the dealer has to program the serial number and machine options into the comp. Mine forgot to activate my "bucket positioning" (self leveling) option I have, so I have to sent the computer back to them, they have to stick it into a loader I'm told. Or I can run a power wire to it on a toggle switch.
Go figure why something so minor has to be a pita.
Ken

Unfortunately its they way they are going, people love their gadgets.... Till they break! then you need to sell your first born to get it fixed. Using computer based electronics is good for them as you can use one device and simply program it to work in multiple machines, this saves them money in manufacturing a different box for each machine.
As long as the controls don't use PWM to control the spools there is no reason why the computer can't be by-passed. I agree, there are watchdog systems available at a fraction of a BOSS system that will monitor your engine and shutdown if there is a fault.

 

[mllud]

Unfortunately its they way they are going, people love their gadgets.... Till they break! then you need to sell your first born to get it fixed. Using computer based electronics is good for them as you can use one device and simply program it to work in multiple machines, this saves them money in manufacturing a different box for each machine.
As long as the controls don't use PWM to control the spools there is no reason why the computer can't be by-passed. I agree, there are watchdog systems available at a fraction of a BOSS system that will monitor your engine and shutdown if there is a fault.

Im sure the newer control systems wont be bypassed . where does that put those machines in 15 years when they stop backing up the electronics. A guy buys a new machine for personal use and takes care of it gets punished for not wearing it out soon enough..When they manufacture parts the more they make in a single run the better the price per part. they are making short runs on parts to keep their inventory down. at the customers expense. Just curious what does PWM abreviate? Itss good if bobcat is now making one part to program to all their machines. a long as they dont rip you on the programing. does anyone know if the new control board on a new holland lx865 has to be programed. I left my origenal wiring harness in tact when I bypassed it. in case i found a used one. I would also like to retrieve the hours on my loader off my defective board. mike

 

[Fishfiles]

Im sure the newer control systems wont be bypassed . where does that put those machines in 15 years when they stop backing up the electronics. A guy buys a new machine for personal use and takes care of it gets punished for not wearing it out soon enough..When they manufacture parts the more they make in a single run the better the price per part. they are making short runs on parts to keep their inventory down. at the customers expense. Just curious what does PWM abreviate? Itss good if bobcat is now making one part to program to all their machines. a long as they dont rip you on the programing. does anyone know if the new control board on a new holland lx865 has to be programed. I left my origenal wiring harness in tact when I bypassed it. in case i found a used one. I would also like to retrieve the hours on my loader off my defective board. mike

I think it all boils down to a quote by Henry Ford , he said "I can give everyone a car for free , but they have to bring it to me to have all service work done and buy all parts from me ", the money is in parts and service and they are going in the direction that the end user will not be able to do any repairs , you will have to have it scanned to know where the problem is , what really gets me is Bobcat policy of not selling software programs to users , and they don't give any assistance from factory techs over the phone , almost all the other major brands have techs that will walk you thru problems ---------the new T300 JSC is a good example of the "have to bring it in days to come " , very high tech , computor software version upgrades , "fly by wire technologies" , non by-passable elctronics , electronic parts so expensive that the days of trying to change a part in hopes that it will solve a problem are over

 

[Tazza]

I think it all boils down to a quote by Henry Ford , he said "I can give everyone a car for free , but they have to bring it to me to have all service work done and buy all parts from me ", the money is in parts and service and they are going in the direction that the end user will not be able to do any repairs , you will have to have it scanned to know where the problem is , what really gets me is Bobcat policy of not selling software programs to users , and they don't give any assistance from factory techs over the phone , almost all the other major brands have techs that will walk you thru problems ---------the new T300 JSC is a good example of the "have to bring it in days to come " , very high tech , computor software version upgrades , "fly by wire technologies" , non by-passable elctronics , electronic parts so expensive that the days of trying to change a part in hopes that it will solve a problem are over

My dealer is amazing with information on servicing. You give them a call and they are more than happy to tell you what to do to fix it, they never say just bring it down and we will fix it. They are happy for others to do the work as they still get their money on spare parts.

 

[TriHonu]

My dealer is amazing with information on servicing. You give them a call and they are more than happy to tell you what to do to fix it, they never say just bring it down and we will fix it. They are happy for others to do the work as they still get their money on spare parts.

I spent some time studying the wiring schematics for the 763 BOSS vs Standard Gauges wiring.
I found it interesting that the Standard Gauges wiring also has sensors for everything the BOSS monitors except Coolant Level and Engine RPM. The Standard Gauge wiring also has a Shutdown Module if anything is out of range. It just doesn't tell you why it shutdown.
The BOSS appears to only add a graphical display to show you more information and error codes for each of the sensors. That was an expensive option that provided more information to the operator, but doesn't appear to provide any more protection than the Standard Gauges with Shutdown Module.
Considering the BOSS controller only controls the power to the Glow Plug Relay and the Shutdown Relay, it would be easy to bypass it. However I would need to then add Engine Temp, Volt Meter and Fuel Gauge. According to the schematic the Fuel Level Sending Unit appears to be the same with an output of 33 - 240 ohms. The Engine Temp Sensor is different and would have to be matched to the gauge purchased.
I agree with Tazza, mllud Fishfiles; as users we have asked for the "bells and whistles" and will have to pay higher repair costs when they break. The guys buying the equipment will just continue to buy new closer to the end of the warranty. The "Little Guy" will pay more to get it fixed which may result in a higher cost per hour to own.
At least the loaders built before 1999 did not REQUIRE a computer to run and operate. Just wait until these loaders not only have computer controls but also have a Fuel Management Computer on the engine or did the Tier 3 requirements already force that? Nothing like an electrical fault to shut the whole thing down.
I spoke to a guy who bought a new dozer in 2006. They had a electrical problem that went back to the dealer 2 times. The dealer had to get a Factory Service Rep out to find and fix the problem. Good thing it was under warranty. The repair bill was over $5000 and the machine spent over a month out of production. He was pissed!

Tazza, are you going to buy new factory wiring harnesses for your 751 or are you going to wire it from scratch?

 

[Tazza]

I spent some time studying the wiring schematics for the 763 BOSS vs Standard Gauges wiring.
I found it interesting that the Standard Gauges wiring also has sensors for everything the BOSS monitors except Coolant Level and Engine RPM. The Standard Gauge wiring also has a Shutdown Module if anything is out of range. It just doesn't tell you why it shutdown.
The BOSS appears to only add a graphical display to show you more information and error codes for each of the sensors. That was an expensive option that provided more information to the operator, but doesn't appear to provide any more protection than the Standard Gauges with Shutdown Module.
Considering the BOSS controller only controls the power to the Glow Plug Relay and the Shutdown Relay, it would be easy to bypass it. However I would need to then add Engine Temp, Volt Meter and Fuel Gauge. According to the schematic the Fuel Level Sending Unit appears to be the same with an output of 33 - 240 ohms. The Engine Temp Sensor is different and would have to be matched to the gauge purchased.
I agree with Tazza, mllud Fishfiles; as users we have asked for the "bells and whistles" and will have to pay higher repair costs when they break. The guys buying the equipment will just continue to buy new closer to the end of the warranty. The "Little Guy" will pay more to get it fixed which may result in a higher cost per hour to own.
At least the loaders built before 1999 did not REQUIRE a computer to run and operate. Just wait until these loaders not only have computer controls but also have a Fuel Management Computer on the engine or did the Tier 3 requirements already force that? Nothing like an electrical fault to shut the whole thing down.
I spoke to a guy who bought a new dozer in 2006. They had a electrical problem that went back to the dealer 2 times. The dealer had to get a Factory Service Rep out to find and fix the problem. Good thing it was under warranty. The repair bill was over $5000 and the machine spent over a month out of production. He was pissed!
Tazza, are you going to buy new factory wiring harnesses for your 751 or are you going to wire it from scratch?

I have spoken to a guy down south that has what he classes as a full wiring harness, i'm not sure if its just the lower part for the engine bay up to the bics box or if its rite to the dash. From the wiring diagrams i got i honestly believe i could re-wire it from scratch if needed. All the information is there, and its quite detailed too. From the details i have and the harness that i am going to get i will only need to wire from behind the seat up to the dash. I just need to see if i can find a connector..... Or even an old harness that i can snatch the connector from.
Computer engine management is one thing that scares me too. I don't know how the computer management will work though, like a car its simpy a box that controls the injector duty cycle from maps and an EGO sensor (there are more little things too). Hopefully they will not make their own computers as the engine manufacturer will have their own engine management that is already highly tuned. I'm i don't know too much about common rail, but its essentially the same, the computer manages how many pre and post ignition shots of fuel are delivered at set times and quantities. Even the injectors for these engines will be a killer!

 

[skidsteer.ca]

I have spoken to a guy down south that has what he classes as a full wiring harness, i'm not sure if its just the lower part for the engine bay up to the bics box or if its rite to the dash. From the wiring diagrams i got i honestly believe i could re-wire it from scratch if needed. All the information is there, and its quite detailed too. From the details i have and the harness that i am going to get i will only need to wire from behind the seat up to the dash. I just need to see if i can find a connector..... Or even an old harness that i can snatch the connector from.
Computer engine management is one thing that scares me too. I don't know how the computer management will work though, like a car its simpy a box that controls the injector duty cycle from maps and an EGO sensor (there are more little things too). Hopefully they will not make their own computers as the engine manufacturer will have their own engine management that is already highly tuned. I'm i don't know too much about common rail, but its essentially the same, the computer manages how many pre and post ignition shots of fuel are delivered at set times and quantities. Even the injectors for these engines will be a killer!

Worse then that is my (limited) experience with these new engines is they are hard on fuel to boot. Are 02 Dodge 3500 would only get 15 mpg, where our 96 with the mechanical engine would run as good as 24. I put a Edge chip in it and boasted milage up into the 18 to 20 range. The JD dealer is pushing aftermarket chips for their skidders as well, same results improved power and lower fuel consumption. Also the 02 is on its second injection pump in 90000 kms.
As far as the equipment goes , if they won't sell me the service tools, I won't be buying the equipment. We work 3 to 6 hours away from the dealers. Service calls are not a 1 day trip around here.
Ken

 

[mllud]

Worse then that is my (limited) experience with these new engines is they are hard on fuel to boot. Are 02 Dodge 3500 would only get 15 mpg, where our 96 with the mechanical engine would run as good as 24. I put a Edge chip in it and boasted milage up into the 18 to 20 range. The JD dealer is pushing aftermarket chips for their skidders as well, same results improved power and lower fuel consumption. Also the 02 is on its second injection pump in 90000 kms.
As far as the equipment goes , if they won't sell me the service tools, I won't be buying the equipment. We work 3 to 6 hours away from the dealers. Service calls are not a 1 day trip around here.
Ken

If you leave the gas cap loose on a newer ford van the check engine light comes on. you have to go to the dealer to get reset. thats a rigged service charge. software doesnt fail due to lack of service or maintenance They need to put a reboot booth in the parking lot at The dealer as a first option for cutomers. Im sure Im having a wet dream.Its clear this is a huge sore spot with everyone. Mike

 

[mllud]

If you leave the gas cap loose on a newer ford van the check engine light comes on. you have to go to the dealer to get reset. thats a rigged service charge. software doesnt fail due to lack of service or maintenance They need to put a reboot booth in the parking lot at The dealer as a first option for cutomers. Im sure Im having a wet dream.Its clear this is a huge sore spot with everyone. Mike

I hate to sound 100% negative about high tech . Its great . as customer you live with what they sell. It would be nice if all the skid steer builders could read a lot of what is on this forum.Mechanical problems are different. easier to understsnd,accept,repair.and move on. we all know it wouldnt take much software to be able to reboot or Identify a problem thru a personal computer. Then they still sell the parts. Im not in the business like some of you.It has to hurt profits. Mike

 

[sterlclan]

I hate to sound 100% negative about high tech . Its great . as customer you live with what they sell. It would be nice if all the skid steer builders could read a lot of what is on this forum.Mechanical problems are different. easier to understsnd,accept,repair.and move on. we all know it wouldnt take much software to be able to reboot or Identify a problem thru a personal computer. Then they still sell the parts. Im not in the business like some of you.It has to hurt profits. Mike

a 40 dollar scan tool will reset your van light...........as far as a reboot booth as a rule people are stupid and would abuse the thing or use it for the wrong reasons. the manufacturers are "trying" to protect us from ourselves I agree if they kept it simple it would be better for the end user not so good for profit......A Cat dealer once told me he will sell a machine at a LOSS cause the money (read profit) comes from parts and labor.........my 2c.....Jeff

 

[Fishfiles]

a 40 dollar scan tool will reset your van light...........as far as a reboot booth as a rule people are stupid and would abuse the thing or use it for the wrong reasons. the manufacturers are "trying" to protect us from ourselves I agree if they kept it simple it would be better for the end user not so good for profit......A Cat dealer once told me he will sell a machine at a LOSS cause the money (read profit) comes from parts and labor.........my 2c.....Jeff

I offend wonder what percent as a rule of the price of the machine as compared to the cost of all the parts sold seperatly to build a machine is , I would guess something crazy like 5,000% , so a $20,000 machine if built part by part from the dealer would cost $ 1 million dollars for every nut , blot and decal , it's mind boggling ------ even notice on small things that maybe has 4 parts , if one part breaks it's cheaper to get a whole new one , we live in a disposable world

 

[mllud]

I offend wonder what percent as a rule of the price of the machine as compared to the cost of all the parts sold seperatly to build a machine is , I would guess something crazy like 5,000% , so a $20,000 machine if built part by part from the dealer would cost $ 1 million dollars for every nut , blot and decal , it's mind boggling ------ even notice on small things that maybe has 4 parts , if one part breaks it's cheaper to get a whole new one , we live in a disposable world

Sterclan Thanks on the info on the scan tool too reset the light. I got a dodge viper valve cover from a guy that builds trim dies for them. I guess that leaves out buying the rest of the car one part at a time as I hoped. thanks mike