FOA fault

[Straydog]

The engine transplant into the LX565 is nearly complete but on performing a test run I get an FOA fault and the engine wont crank over. According to the manual this means a short or open circuit on the foot pedal solenoids. I have checked these with a meter and they look ok. If I sit in the seat and switch the service switch over to service, I can start the engine and the foot pedals are released- ie, everything works. This means that the foot pedal solenoids appear to be ok but the manual says that in the service position the foot pedals should remain locked?? Any ideas why I'm getting that fault in the "run" mode when the solenoids appear ok? Will that fault stop the engine from cranking over? And should the pedals be locked or free when in service mode?

 

[jerry]

They should be locked in service mode and unlocked in run if the seat switch and the seat belt switch have made connection. Does the wiring on the seat and seat belt look factory or has it been altered?.

 

[jerry]

They should be locked in service mode and unlocked in run if the seat switch and the seat belt switch have made connection. Does the wiring on the seat and seat belt look factory or has it been altered?.

If you start it in service and everything works then switch it to run while it is running does every thing continue to work? How about if you disconnect the seat belt while it is running?

 

[Straydog]

If you start it in service and everything works then switch it to run while it is running does every thing continue to work? How about if you disconnect the seat belt while it is running?

I will give those things a try today and see what happens. The wiring to the seat switch looks normal but the rest of the wiring shows signs of being messed with so anything is possible. Can't figure out though why the solenoids would be unlocked in service mode. Is it normal to have to be sitting in the seat before you switch the service mode on? If I leave it in service and get out and come back later and try to start it doesn't work.

 

[mfyock]

I will give those things a try today and see what happens. The wiring to the seat switch looks normal but the rest of the wiring shows signs of being messed with so anything is possible. Can't figure out though why the solenoids would be unlocked in service mode. Is it normal to have to be sitting in the seat before you switch the service mode on? If I leave it in service and get out and come back later and try to start it doesn't work.

I think you are getting the service and run modes switched around. -Sit down in the seat. In RUN mode, the dash should light up. If it doesnt you have a bad seat switch OR you are in service mode. Try starting the machine, without the seatbelt on. If it starts you are in service mode.

 

[Mike10]

It appears someone has done some creative electrical work. I thought too you might have the switch positions reversed, but if that was the case you would not get the FOA in the position you say the switch is in.
The power for the solenoids comes from the instrument panel so in the service position there is nothing to tell the board to send power to them.
In the run position the instrument panel looks for the solenoids and if the expected electrical value is not present it gives you the FOA. I would think the engine would still start though.
You need to get a wiring diagram and start tracing wiring. The diagram should be in your operators manual.

 

[Straydog]

It appears someone has done some creative electrical work. I thought too you might have the switch positions reversed, but if that was the case you would not get the FOA in the position you say the switch is in.
The power for the solenoids comes from the instrument panel so in the service position there is nothing to tell the board to send power to them.
In the run position the instrument panel looks for the solenoids and if the expected electrical value is not present it gives you the FOA. I would think the engine would still start though.
You need to get a wiring diagram and start tracing wiring. The diagram should be in your operators manual.

Not sure where to start to try to sort it all out. If I start the engine in service mode then switch it back to run the engine stops straight away. If I try to start in run mode I get the FOA and the glow plug light - which I thought should go off after about 10 seconds but doesn't. Also, it seems the oil pressure warning light isn't working - it lights up when the eic does it's power up but doesn't light up when the ignition is turned on. I changed the sender but still the same. Does the eic detect if the engine is running before activating the oil light? I disconnected the yellow oil pressure wire with the ignition on, but engine not running and also tried shorting it to ground but no oil light. I can use the machine in service mode but each time I get in I have to flick the switch back to run then to service. I'd like to at least have the engine warning light working just in case. I have the LS160 service manual and it talks about a diagnostics and setup mode for the eic. It says you can reset the hour meter. Is this diagnostics and setup mode the same for the LX565?

 

[jerry]

Not sure where to start to try to sort it all out. If I start the engine in service mode then switch it back to run the engine stops straight away. If I try to start in run mode I get the FOA and the glow plug light - which I thought should go off after about 10 seconds but doesn't. Also, it seems the oil pressure warning light isn't working - it lights up when the eic does it's power up but doesn't light up when the ignition is turned on. I changed the sender but still the same. Does the eic detect if the engine is running before activating the oil light? I disconnected the yellow oil pressure wire with the ignition on, but engine not running and also tried shorting it to ground but no oil light. I can use the machine in service mode but each time I get in I have to flick the switch back to run then to service. I'd like to at least have the engine warning light working just in case. I have the LS160 service manual and it talks about a diagnostics and setup mode for the eic. It says you can reset the hour meter. Is this diagnostics and setup mode the same for the LX565?

I do know that if you get carried away with the eic you can enter a lock code and have to get a master code from the dealer to unlock.

 

[Mike10]

Not sure where to start to try to sort it all out. If I start the engine in service mode then switch it back to run the engine stops straight away. If I try to start in run mode I get the FOA and the glow plug light - which I thought should go off after about 10 seconds but doesn't. Also, it seems the oil pressure warning light isn't working - it lights up when the eic does it's power up but doesn't light up when the ignition is turned on. I changed the sender but still the same. Does the eic detect if the engine is running before activating the oil light? I disconnected the yellow oil pressure wire with the ignition on, but engine not running and also tried shorting it to ground but no oil light. I can use the machine in service mode but each time I get in I have to flick the switch back to run then to service. I'd like to at least have the engine warning light working just in case. I have the LS160 service manual and it talks about a diagnostics and setup mode for the eic. It says you can reset the hour meter. Is this diagnostics and setup mode the same for the LX565?

The oil pressure light is on a time delay and will not come on by just turning the key switch on. I do not know exactly what the eic is looking for before the oil light comes on but I know just turning the key on will not do it.
As long as you have an early LS160 service manual the diagnostics and setup are the same. The last LS160's used a different panel but I do not think the later one is shown in the service manual.
The wiring diagrams should also be the same.
The wiring diagram is where you need to start. Remove the headliner and right side panel by the service run switch and check if the wiring to the service/run switch is correct.
You have not said if the eic lights come on when you sit in the seat with the KEY OFF and the service\run switch in the RUN position.
To check if the seat switch and seat belt switch are operating you can unplug the seat harness at the back of the seat. You will find three terminals in the connector. With someone in the seat with the seat belt fastened you should have continuity between all three termanals of the seat harness.
Check the machine end of the connector you disconnected from the seat harness, and you should have power to one terminal at all times reguardless of operator present or key switch position.
Start with that and let us know what you find, then we will go to step 2.

 

[Straydog]

The oil pressure light is on a time delay and will not come on by just turning the key switch on. I do not know exactly what the eic is looking for before the oil light comes on but I know just turning the key on will not do it.
As long as you have an early LS160 service manual the diagnostics and setup are the same. The last LS160's used a different panel but I do not think the later one is shown in the service manual.
The wiring diagrams should also be the same.
The wiring diagram is where you need to start. Remove the headliner and right side panel by the service run switch and check if the wiring to the service/run switch is correct.
You have not said if the eic lights come on when you sit in the seat with the KEY OFF and the service\run switch in the RUN position.
To check if the seat switch and seat belt switch are operating you can unplug the seat harness at the back of the seat. You will find three terminals in the connector. With someone in the seat with the seat belt fastened you should have continuity between all three termanals of the seat harness.
Check the machine end of the connector you disconnected from the seat harness, and you should have power to one terminal at all times reguardless of operator present or key switch position.
Start with that and let us know what you find, then we will go to step 2.

That's useful to know about the oil pressure light. So if the engine is running and I disconnect the oil pressure wire it should come on then? I'm assuming the oil pressure switch is s/c with no pressure and o/c with pressure on? "You have not said if the eic lights come on when you sit in the seat with the KEY OFF and the service\run switch in the RUN position". - Yes the lights come on. I think I might start with trying to figure out why it wont crank over in the run position. The seat belt switch seems to be working. I've got the wiring diagram so as soon as I get a chance I will try to trace the circuit. I'm wondering if the previous owner did a factory reset on the eic? That would explain why the temperature is displayed in Fahrenheit (would expect Celsius on an Australian machine) and the hour meter shows 400 hours when its clearly done a lot more than that.

 

[Straydog]

That's useful to know about the oil pressure light. So if the engine is running and I disconnect the oil pressure wire it should come on then? I'm assuming the oil pressure switch is s/c with no pressure and o/c with pressure on? "You have not said if the eic lights come on when you sit in the seat with the KEY OFF and the service\run switch in the RUN position". - Yes the lights come on. I think I might start with trying to figure out why it wont crank over in the run position. The seat belt switch seems to be working. I've got the wiring diagram so as soon as I get a chance I will try to trace the circuit. I'm wondering if the previous owner did a factory reset on the eic? That would explain why the temperature is displayed in Fahrenheit (would expect Celsius on an Australian machine) and the hour meter shows 400 hours when its clearly done a lot more than that.

I'm making some progress with the electrical problems. I found that the previous owner had cut the wire to the boom solenoids and put in a relay that powered them when the ignition was turned on. That explains the foa fault. I also replaced the start interlock relay as it wasn't operating due to corrosion internally. I've hit a bit of a brick wall now though. Now with the switch in run mode it will crank over and start but stops as soon as you release the key. Tracing the wiring diagram it shows that the fuel cutoff solenoid gets power from the start interlock relay but that is only while it is cranking over. I assume once it starts the cutoff solenoid is powered from pin 5 on the eic? For some reason pin 5 isn't powering the solenoid hence it shuts off straight away. Can't figure out why. Still runs ok in service mode. Also, the seat belt switch is a bit intermittent. You have to insert the seat belt a few times to get it to work. Tried blowing it out and spraying with some contact cleaner but no change. Is it possible to get that apart to get to the switch without destroying it?

 

[Mike10]

I'm making some progress with the electrical problems. I found that the previous owner had cut the wire to the boom solenoids and put in a relay that powered them when the ignition was turned on. That explains the foa fault. I also replaced the start interlock relay as it wasn't operating due to corrosion internally. I've hit a bit of a brick wall now though. Now with the switch in run mode it will crank over and start but stops as soon as you release the key. Tracing the wiring diagram it shows that the fuel cutoff solenoid gets power from the start interlock relay but that is only while it is cranking over. I assume once it starts the cutoff solenoid is powered from pin 5 on the eic? For some reason pin 5 isn't powering the solenoid hence it shuts off straight away. Can't figure out why. Still runs ok in service mode. Also, the seat belt switch is a bit intermittent. You have to insert the seat belt a few times to get it to work. Tried blowing it out and spraying with some contact cleaner but no change. Is it possible to get that apart to get to the switch without destroying it?

Generally the problem you describe is casued by the start interlock relay. Did you an OEM part?
Have you checked to see if there is power going to the instrument panel in the start position at the white wire on pin ten of the larger connector. I would think, but not sure, you should also have power at pin 5 when cranking.
I you should have power at pins 4 when in the seat, 10 when cranking, 11 when sitting is seat and seat belt fastened, 12 when key is in on position, 14should have power at all times. It would be interesting if you could remove the wire from pin five of the instrment panel to see if there is power at the instrument panel pin 5 when cranking and after the key is released.

 

[Straydog]

Generally the problem you describe is casued by the start interlock relay. Did you an OEM part?
Have you checked to see if there is power going to the instrument panel in the start position at the white wire on pin ten of the larger connector. I would think, but not sure, you should also have power at pin 5 when cranking.
I you should have power at pins 4 when in the seat, 10 when cranking, 11 when sitting is seat and seat belt fastened, 12 when key is in on position, 14should have power at all times. It would be interesting if you could remove the wire from pin five of the instrment panel to see if there is power at the instrument panel pin 5 when cranking and after the key is released.

I didn't use an oem relay but I bought one with the same manufacturers part number so I'm 100% sure its correct. My understanding is that the relay only plays a function during cranking - and it is doing what it should during this time. After you release the key, I assume the eic should somehow know that it needs to supply power to the fuel solenoid - which I think is where my problem is. Pin 10 white has power on it while cranking but nothing when you release the key. Pin 5 blue/orange also has power while cranking but nothing when key released. I will try to figure out why it continues to run with the switch in service mode but not in run mode

 

[Mike10]

I didn't use an oem relay but I bought one with the same manufacturers part number so I'm 100% sure its correct. My understanding is that the relay only plays a function during cranking - and it is doing what it should during this time. After you release the key, I assume the eic should somehow know that it needs to supply power to the fuel solenoid - which I think is where my problem is. Pin 10 white has power on it while cranking but nothing when you release the key. Pin 5 blue/orange also has power while cranking but nothing when key released. I will try to figure out why it continues to run with the switch in service mode but not in run mode

I also believed the start interlock relay could not possibly be the casue ot the symtoms you decscribe since the relay is bypassed by the circuit from pin 5, but I have had customers who replaced it anyway and it corrected the problem. There have also been posts on this site stating the same solution. The only thing I can think of is there is a short circuit internally in the relay causing the instrument panel to see a high load and shutting power down to that circuit from pin 5. Even though the power does not flow through the relay it is still attached to it. It might also be a high load from the fuel shutoff solenoid on the back of the injection pump housing.
In service mode the power does not come from the instrument panel.

 

[mfyock]

I also believed the start interlock relay could not possibly be the casue ot the symtoms you decscribe since the relay is bypassed by the circuit from pin 5, but I have had customers who replaced it anyway and it corrected the problem. There have also been posts on this site stating the same solution. The only thing I can think of is there is a short circuit internally in the relay causing the instrument panel to see a high load and shutting power down to that circuit from pin 5. Even though the power does not flow through the relay it is still attached to it. It might also be a high load from the fuel shutoff solenoid on the back of the injection pump housing.
In service mode the power does not come from the instrument panel.

I had a machine that wouldnt stay running when I left off the key. It ended up being a bad dash. Popped in a new dash and eveything worked. Too bad the dash is $600 or something like that....

 

[Straydog]

I had a machine that wouldnt stay running when I left off the key. It ended up being a bad dash. Popped in a new dash and eveything worked. Too bad the dash is $600 or something like that....

Ok, I came to the conclusion the problem was in the eic, with pin 5 not powering the fuel solenoid when it should. I took the board out of the eic and found the track was melted and a shorted diode. I suspect the diode went first which took out the track. Its interesting that from reading here others have had similar problems. Anyway, I'm going to replace the diode and patch up the track and with a bit of luck it hasn't taken out anything else. I suspect this happened some time ago and that is why the previous owner bypassed the boom solenoid lock so the machine could be used in service mode. If the eic repair is not successful, I'm thinking I have 2 choices: 1. connect the boom solenoids back up to be powered when the ignition is on and run in service mode or 2. wire the fuel solenoid to be powered when the ignition is on and run in run mode. Which would be better? Either way there would be no automatic shut down of the engine if the eic detects a fault but I can live with that.

 

[Mike10]

Ok, I came to the conclusion the problem was in the eic, with pin 5 not powering the fuel solenoid when it should. I took the board out of the eic and found the track was melted and a shorted diode. I suspect the diode went first which took out the track. Its interesting that from reading here others have had similar problems. Anyway, I'm going to replace the diode and patch up the track and with a bit of luck it hasn't taken out anything else. I suspect this happened some time ago and that is why the previous owner bypassed the boom solenoid lock so the machine could be used in service mode. If the eic repair is not successful, I'm thinking I have 2 choices: 1. connect the boom solenoids back up to be powered when the ignition is on and run in service mode or 2. wire the fuel solenoid to be powered when the ignition is on and run in run mode. Which would be better? Either way there would be no automatic shut down of the engine if the eic detects a fault but I can live with that.

Hopefullly your repair will be successful. Under no circumstance should you leave the solenoids wired in with ignition switch. The reason New Holland came with the interlock system was becasue of the number of people getting crushed while entering and exiting the loader with the boom up and accidently hitting the pedal. Even though we know better than to enter or exit the loader with the boom up, we all have done it without locking the boom up.
Did you wire the solenoids back in with the EIC before removing the panel? Just wondering if the circuit was working. The pedal should release without the engine running. Sitting in the seat and fastening the seat belt and turning the key on should free the pedals.
From what I have seen on this forum the vast majority of EIC failures are from the silver trimmed panels. These were subject to corrosion There are two types of silver trimmed panels, those that have failed and those that will.
Yours is apparently a gold trimmed panel since you are getting the FAO fault. If you can not repair the board there are places that can.

 

[Straydog]

Hopefullly your repair will be successful. Under no circumstance should you leave the solenoids wired in with ignition switch. The reason New Holland came with the interlock system was becasue of the number of people getting crushed while entering and exiting the loader with the boom up and accidently hitting the pedal. Even though we know better than to enter or exit the loader with the boom up, we all have done it without locking the boom up.
Did you wire the solenoids back in with the EIC before removing the panel? Just wondering if the circuit was working. The pedal should release without the engine running. Sitting in the seat and fastening the seat belt and turning the key on should free the pedals.
From what I have seen on this forum the vast majority of EIC failures are from the silver trimmed panels. These were subject to corrosion There are two types of silver trimmed panels, those that have failed and those that will.
Yours is apparently a gold trimmed panel since you are getting the FAO fault. If you can not repair the board there are places that can.

I should receive the rest of the parts I need for the eic repair in a few days. I did connect the boom lock solenoids back to the eic and that circuit is working. I assume the places that repair these boards would be in the USA? I doubt anyone here in Australia would fix them. That's good news that I have the later version of eic that is less likely to fail from corrosion. Was that introduced after a certain year? That leads me to another question - I can't identify which year my machine is. The plate has a spot for a production year but its not stamped. Is there any other way of identifying what year it was built?

 

[Mike10]

I should receive the rest of the parts I need for the eic repair in a few days. I did connect the boom lock solenoids back to the eic and that circuit is working. I assume the places that repair these boards would be in the USA? I doubt anyone here in Australia would fix them. That's good news that I have the later version of eic that is less likely to fail from corrosion. Was that introduced after a certain year? That leads me to another question - I can't identify which year my machine is. The plate has a spot for a production year but its not stamped. Is there any other way of identifying what year it was built?

The serial number is the only way to check for the year built. I would think the dealers in your area have some kind of book on equipment listing the serial numbers and the year of production.
A more general way to tell year of production is to look at the rear door. The first few years the door had stamped oval openings. In 98 I think or 99 they went to a slat style rear door. Also the threashold up front was metal until I believe 1999 when they went to plastic.
You can not go by the instrument panel since many of the gray boards were replaced with gold trimmed boards. I think in 1999 they went to an instrument panel with four retaining bolts instead of two.