642 Hydraulic Pump replacement (Vickers part number)

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bfingar

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I have a 642 Bobcat and I am considering replacing the Vickers hydraulic pump because the machine has high hours and as the machine heats up, the spools move slower because of slippage around the pump.
Vickers #TDV1005B20554 I believe is for a 641 Bobcat, since the two are identical except the engine, it should fit in a 642. A 641/642/643 use 9.5 gpm @ 1900 psi. I believe #TDV1005B20011 will fit a 743 which has 11gpm @2140 psi.
Does anyone know if a TDV1005B20554 is equivelent to a Bobcat part #6648982? Also, does anyone have the spec sheet to build the vickers part number? That would prove helpfull. Basically, I am trying to purchase the pump from a vickers dealer because I can save a reasonable amount of money if I do not get the part at a Bobcat dealer.

Thanks

Bernie
 

Tazza

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First off, the pump has no internal relief valve. Its all regulated at the control block so the pump pressure has nothing to do with it, as long as it will handle say 2,500 PSI you will be fine.
You will need to match the flow, and mounting specs off your old pump. Direction is easily changed by fliping the cam plate i think they call it.
Are you sure its the pump? as these are a vane pump they don't really wear out. As they slowly wear, the vanes bed themselvs into the grooves. When they wear out, vanes fall out and get munched and stop working all together. They don't really loose presure over time and when they fail, they really fail.
Does your 642 have a square block that sits on top of the hydrualic pump? there is a filter hidden inside there that causes problems when the machine warms up.
You can also get kits to repair these pumps, they have a new rotor, vanes and the housing they run in. If you can give vickers the part number they can suply you with a repair kit.
 

bfingar

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First off, the pump has no internal relief valve. Its all regulated at the control block so the pump pressure has nothing to do with it, as long as it will handle say 2,500 PSI you will be fine.
You will need to match the flow, and mounting specs off your old pump. Direction is easily changed by fliping the cam plate i think they call it.
Are you sure its the pump? as these are a vane pump they don't really wear out. As they slowly wear, the vanes bed themselvs into the grooves. When they wear out, vanes fall out and get munched and stop working all together. They don't really loose presure over time and when they fail, they really fail.
Does your 642 have a square block that sits on top of the hydrualic pump? there is a filter hidden inside there that causes problems when the machine warms up.
You can also get kits to repair these pumps, they have a new rotor, vanes and the housing they run in. If you can give vickers the part number they can suply you with a repair kit.
Tazza:
To the best of my knowledge, the relief valve for the system is part of the valve spool assembly well after the pump and port block, as the hydraulic fluid flows. The pump does have a square block on top of it, it is what Bobcat calls the “port block”. I am assuming if the filter inside the “port block“ was partially blocked, it would be a problem all the time and not just after the machine warmed up. However, the symptom may be multiplied as the hydraulic fluid warms up and thins out. That is why I am thinking it is the pump. Have you ever changed or cleaned this hidden filter, supposably there is a special Bobcat tool # xxx to remove and install this filter. I am wondering if the tool is really necessary first, or if necessary, can it easily be made with a hunk of steel, a gringer and a welder? I'll drain the reservoir when I have a minute and pull the filter.
The problem with the pump rebuild kit, (1) is that they are 2/3 the price of a new pump from Bobcat, and (2) does not include all the parts that you have mentioned. The other problem is that the Vickers part numbers I mentioned, I am only 90% sure it is the same pump. There is no way to verify until I have one in my hand. Vickers dealers will only say that it is a valid part number, but they can not and do not have any details on how the part number is built or what it is for. When I check the filter, I will pull the pump and measure it up to see about ordering a suitable replacement that will fit the 2 bolt mounting plate. I only need a pump that will generate 9.5 gpm and say 2000psi at 2500 rpm. I wonder what would happen if I found a pump that would supply, say 11 gpm plus the above specs?
Thanks
Bernie
 

Tazza

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Tazza:
To the best of my knowledge, the relief valve for the system is part of the valve spool assembly well after the pump and port block, as the hydraulic fluid flows. The pump does have a square block on top of it, it is what Bobcat calls the “port block”. I am assuming if the filter inside the “port block“ was partially blocked, it would be a problem all the time and not just after the machine warmed up. However, the symptom may be multiplied as the hydraulic fluid warms up and thins out. That is why I am thinking it is the pump. Have you ever changed or cleaned this hidden filter, supposably there is a special Bobcat tool # xxx to remove and install this filter. I am wondering if the tool is really necessary first, or if necessary, can it easily be made with a hunk of steel, a gringer and a welder? I'll drain the reservoir when I have a minute and pull the filter.
The problem with the pump rebuild kit, (1) is that they are 2/3 the price of a new pump from Bobcat, and (2) does not include all the parts that you have mentioned. The other problem is that the Vickers part numbers I mentioned, I am only 90% sure it is the same pump. There is no way to verify until I have one in my hand. Vickers dealers will only say that it is a valid part number, but they can not and do not have any details on how the part number is built or what it is for. When I check the filter, I will pull the pump and measure it up to see about ordering a suitable replacement that will fit the 2 bolt mounting plate. I only need a pump that will generate 9.5 gpm and say 2000psi at 2500 rpm. I wonder what would happen if I found a pump that would supply, say 11 gpm plus the above specs?
Thanks
Bernie
You would assume the problem would get better when the fluid warms up, but unfortunatly it doesn't seem to do that... My old 731 has a port block filter and it worked great for say 10-15 mins. then it would howl when i tried to move. After alot of calls to bobcat they told me to change the filter, i did and it works 100% now. It can be changed with no special tools and you don't have to drain your oil. Its located on the left side when looking from the bucket, there should be 3 hoses on the left side, its the middle one. Remove the front hose and put a bung in it. Then remove the middle one and un-screw the large fitting from the port block. There is a spring and a bronze filter behind it. The fitting should have a larger nut size than the other 2 fittings on that side.
If its still bad, Vickers should be able to provide you with a repair kit too, they will just need the model number of the pump. If possible, you could take the pump in to them if they are close? If you do it that way, you will need to drain your oil as it will go everywhere!
I still doubt the pump would be the problem, if it was a gear pump i would say sure but vane pumps tend to compensate for any wear because the vanes simply push out further.
You have nothing to loose by changing the filter ot at least cleaning it and seeing how you go!. It could also be something caught in your relief valve assembly, another member of the forum had this problem, it had a piece of O ring stuck in it causing him a lack of hydraulic pressure.
 

Tazza

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You would assume the problem would get better when the fluid warms up, but unfortunatly it doesn't seem to do that... My old 731 has a port block filter and it worked great for say 10-15 mins. then it would howl when i tried to move. After alot of calls to bobcat they told me to change the filter, i did and it works 100% now. It can be changed with no special tools and you don't have to drain your oil. Its located on the left side when looking from the bucket, there should be 3 hoses on the left side, its the middle one. Remove the front hose and put a bung in it. Then remove the middle one and un-screw the large fitting from the port block. There is a spring and a bronze filter behind it. The fitting should have a larger nut size than the other 2 fittings on that side.
If its still bad, Vickers should be able to provide you with a repair kit too, they will just need the model number of the pump. If possible, you could take the pump in to them if they are close? If you do it that way, you will need to drain your oil as it will go everywhere!
I still doubt the pump would be the problem, if it was a gear pump i would say sure but vane pumps tend to compensate for any wear because the vanes simply push out further.
You have nothing to loose by changing the filter ot at least cleaning it and seeing how you go!. It could also be something caught in your relief valve assembly, another member of the forum had this problem, it had a piece of O ring stuck in it causing him a lack of hydraulic pressure.
OOH
If the filter is blocked it will cause a restriction for the hydrostatic pump that will cause it to loose power and make bubbles in the oil. These bubbles *may* be making their way into your hydraulic line causing the problems you mention. The bronze filter will cause more problems for your hydrostatics instead of they hydraulics. Either way, its a good idea to change it any way.
Are you running the correct fluid? it may be too thin and causing these problems.
 

bfingar

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OOH
If the filter is blocked it will cause a restriction for the hydrostatic pump that will cause it to loose power and make bubbles in the oil. These bubbles *may* be making their way into your hydraulic line causing the problems you mention. The bronze filter will cause more problems for your hydrostatics instead of they hydraulics. Either way, its a good idea to change it any way.
Are you running the correct fluid? it may be too thin and causing these problems.
The machine came with 10W-30 in it, and that is what is running in it today. You can run 10W-30, 10W-40, or hydraulic fluid.
I installed a permenent gauge to display the hydrostatic pump charge pressure a while back...it is almost always at or around 100 psi, right where it shoud be. From a drive or hydrostatic perspective, the unit does not have any issues, both the left and right side drive is strong and consistant.
I will change the 40 micron hidden filter when I get a minute and see what happens.
 

Tazza

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The machine came with 10W-30 in it, and that is what is running in it today. You can run 10W-30, 10W-40, or hydraulic fluid.
I installed a permenent gauge to display the hydrostatic pump charge pressure a while back...it is almost always at or around 100 psi, right where it shoud be. From a drive or hydrostatic perspective, the unit does not have any issues, both the left and right side drive is strong and consistant.
I will change the 40 micron hidden filter when I get a minute and see what happens.
If your charge pressure is stable, i would say the filter is fine. If it was blocked it would be all over the place.
10w30 or 10w40 is the correct fluid to use, so thats not the problem.
The only thing you can really do is pull the hydraulic pump out and check for wear. Just make sure if you don't put a kit in it that the vanes go back in the same way around.
I have a PDF of a calalogue for “Metaris Hydraulic” that show replacement cartrages for vickers pumps. Its another option.
Here is a PDF of the inside of your vane pump, so you know what to expect when you pull it down. http://users.tpg.com.au/tazza_/i3106s.pdf
 

bfingar

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If your charge pressure is stable, i would say the filter is fine. If it was blocked it would be all over the place.
10w30 or 10w40 is the correct fluid to use, so thats not the problem.
The only thing you can really do is pull the hydraulic pump out and check for wear. Just make sure if you don't put a kit in it that the vanes go back in the same way around.
I have a PDF of a calalogue for “Metaris Hydraulic” that show replacement cartrages for vickers pumps. Its another option.
Here is a PDF of the inside of your vane pump, so you know what to expect when you pull it down. http://users.tpg.com.au/tazza_/i3106s.pdf
Tazza:
Thanks for the info...how sure are you that the 642 has a Vickers V330 pump in it? I have never been able to “prove” what it was. I originally thought it was a V20 series, however the smallest V20 series is 6GPM at 1200 rpm, at 2500 rpm, the pump curves say it should put out around 11 gpm. I do not believe a V10 series would fit in it because, as far as I know, V10 series pumps are SAE “A” mounting, I have a SAE “B” mount. I will talk to the local Vickers dealer and see what a replacement cartridge goes for. Do you know if the bearings are part of the kit? I will let you know what I find when I tear it down. I will not tear it down until I know I can get my hands on either a cartridge or a pump that will fit. Besides, this project may have to wait for a little while I finish up a couple of outdoor projects that need to get done before winter.
Thanks
Bernie
 

Tazza

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Tazza:
Thanks for the info...how sure are you that the 642 has a Vickers V330 pump in it? I have never been able to “prove” what it was. I originally thought it was a V20 series, however the smallest V20 series is 6GPM at 1200 rpm, at 2500 rpm, the pump curves say it should put out around 11 gpm. I do not believe a V10 series would fit in it because, as far as I know, V10 series pumps are SAE “A” mounting, I have a SAE “B” mount. I will talk to the local Vickers dealer and see what a replacement cartridge goes for. Do you know if the bearings are part of the kit? I will let you know what I find when I tear it down. I will not tear it down until I know I can get my hands on either a cartridge or a pump that will fit. Besides, this project may have to wait for a little while I finish up a couple of outdoor projects that need to get done before winter.
Thanks
Bernie
I think it is a v20 series, but the internals look the same. The PDF was just for a guide so you know whats inside.
Usually the pump has the model number stamped on the casting. It will detail the series, GPM flow rate, mounting arrangement etc.
As for bearings, i really don't know if they will be in the kit, but i would suspect they would be. I have replaced them in a V20 series pump before, they were just common bearings so they were nice and cheap and easy to find.
If you are able, i would take the pump off and take it to your local vickers/eaton dealer and get them to identify it for you, that way you know you got the exact rite part. Just remember when you remove the pump, you will loose heaps of oil. You will need a new O ring for the mounting of the pump to the hydrostatic pumps. Drain as much hydro oil as you can before removing it.
Good luck with it all. Let us know how you go.
 

langoley

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Tazza:
Thanks for the info...how sure are you that the 642 has a Vickers V330 pump in it? I have never been able to “prove” what it was. I originally thought it was a V20 series, however the smallest V20 series is 6GPM at 1200 rpm, at 2500 rpm, the pump curves say it should put out around 11 gpm. I do not believe a V10 series would fit in it because, as far as I know, V10 series pumps are SAE “A” mounting, I have a SAE “B” mount. I will talk to the local Vickers dealer and see what a replacement cartridge goes for. Do you know if the bearings are part of the kit? I will let you know what I find when I tear it down. I will not tear it down until I know I can get my hands on either a cartridge or a pump that will fit. Besides, this project may have to wait for a little while I finish up a couple of outdoor projects that need to get done before winter.
Thanks
Bernie
If you still need a pump for your 642 I have one from a 642 with 3000 hours.It is my personal machine which rolled and had an engine fire.the hydraulics were not effected.The fire stopped at the "fan" area.If you need one just let me know.
 

danman

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If you still need a pump for your 642 I have one from a 642 with 3000 hours.It is my personal machine which rolled and had an engine fire.the hydraulics were not effected.The fire stopped at the "fan" area.If you need one just let me know.
langoley, Do you have the piston pumps? If so would you sell them?
 

langoley

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langoley, Do you have the piston pumps? If so would you sell them?
As I said all the pumps and motors are still on the machine.I would like to get the engine in the other 642 and make sure I don't need any of the hydro parts for it before I turn loose of them.You could drop me a line at my screen name at aol though.
 

tsanders

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As I said all the pumps and motors are still on the machine.I would like to get the engine in the other 642 and make sure I don't need any of the hydro parts for it before I turn loose of them.You could drop me a line at my screen name at aol though.
langoley do you still have a drive motor? if so i sure do need one. please e-mail with price and i will reply promptly. thanks ted sanders . e-mail tedellissanders ATbellsouth.net with AT [email protected] of course.
 
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