430 - Shut Off and Won't Start Back

[TigerWebb30]

I have a 430 that I was running yesterday and the engine just suddenly shut down. Now it will not start back. The machine only has about 700 hours on it and has run trouble free until now. It does not give any error codes except a 22-02 when I crank it for a couple of seconds and it fails to start. The fuel pump is working but that is about all that I have determined so far. Has anyone ever had this problem or have any suggestions as to what the problem might be? Do the injector pumps go bad very often on these machines or is it more likely a shutoff solenoid maybe? Are there any safety features that shut down the engine that might cause this problem? The hydraulic reservoir is full and the machine has never run hot so I wouldn't suspect those two problems but there may be some other safety features that I am not aware of. Any help at all would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Tazza]

Fuel shut off solenoid? is it puffing any white smoke?
I would suspect the fuel shut off, these solenoids can go bad and you get no fuel to the injectors. Does it run a Kubota? if so, look for the solenoid near the injector pump, when you crank does it pull back and hold? it should be pulling the shut off lever back.

 

[TigerWebb30]

Fuel shut off solenoid? is it puffing any white smoke?
I would suspect the fuel shut off, these solenoids can go bad and you get no fuel to the injectors. Does it run a Kubota? if so, look for the solenoid near the injector pump, when you crank does it pull back and hold? it should be pulling the shut off lever back.

It is a Kubota engine. I will check the fuel shutoff this evening.

 

[thetool]

Code 22-02 is "Starter relay output error on" which means that there is voltage going to the starter relay, but no signal back from the starter telling the computer that it received the current.
Since the engine is cranking, the relay is working and the start circuit wire is intact. That's the larger of two brown wires on the starter. The smaller brown wire is the signal going back to the computer from the starter which it needs to see before the computer sends current to the fuel shutoff solenoid. That wire, the smaller brown wire connected to the starter, is open somewhere between the starter and the controller........I think=)
Good Luck

 

[TigerWebb30]

Code 22-02 is "Starter relay output error on" which means that there is voltage going to the starter relay, but no signal back from the starter telling the computer that it received the current.
Since the engine is cranking, the relay is working and the start circuit wire is intact. That's the larger of two brown wires on the starter. The smaller brown wire is the signal going back to the computer from the starter which it needs to see before the computer sends current to the fuel shutoff solenoid. That wire, the smaller brown wire connected to the starter, is open somewhere between the starter and the controller........I think=)
Good Luck

I have removed the inspection plate on top of the injector pump to inspect the fuel shutoff solenoid. It appears to be operating correctly. As soon as the engine begins cranking the solenoid activates and pulls the plunger and as soon as I turn the key off the solenoid pushes the plunger back in. I have disconnected the supply line to the injector pump and it is pumping fuel all the way to the injector pump but when I broke the injector lines loose on top of the pump I am getting nothing there. I did not see any other solenoids on the motor that would cause the pump not to get fuel but there may be another one somewhere. Does anyone have any other suggestions or know what I might try next to troubleshoot the situation? Thanks again for your help!

 

[Fishfiles]

I have removed the inspection plate on top of the injector pump to inspect the fuel shutoff solenoid. It appears to be operating correctly. As soon as the engine begins cranking the solenoid activates and pulls the plunger and as soon as I turn the key off the solenoid pushes the plunger back in. I have disconnected the supply line to the injector pump and it is pumping fuel all the way to the injector pump but when I broke the injector lines loose on top of the pump I am getting nothing there. I did not see any other solenoids on the motor that would cause the pump not to get fuel but there may be another one somewhere. Does anyone have any other suggestions or know what I might try next to troubleshoot the situation? Thanks again for your help!

I have dealt with 430 fuel kill solinoids before but it has been a while and " taking the cover of the injection pump off to see the plunger work " don't register in my brain , did you access this plunger by taking out the seat with the plate that the seat is mounted to and exposed a window to the back side the motor looking right at the run/kill solinoid ? ---------maybe linkage between the governor and the injection pump came off or I have seen bolts come out the back of the injetion pump slide rail and lose fuel to the injectors , have also seen a clog of water and dirt stop up the plungers in the injection pump and was able to clear it out by taking out the plungers and cleaning them out

 

[Tazza]

I have removed the inspection plate on top of the injector pump to inspect the fuel shutoff solenoid. It appears to be operating correctly. As soon as the engine begins cranking the solenoid activates and pulls the plunger and as soon as I turn the key off the solenoid pushes the plunger back in. I have disconnected the supply line to the injector pump and it is pumping fuel all the way to the injector pump but when I broke the injector lines loose on top of the pump I am getting nothing there. I did not see any other solenoids on the motor that would cause the pump not to get fuel but there may be another one somewhere. Does anyone have any other suggestions or know what I might try next to troubleshoot the situation? Thanks again for your help!

Could it be your lift pump? as when you remove a high pressure line from the injector you should get fuel squirting out. Can you try squeezing the primer bulb and crank the engine, see if it starts or at least squirts fuel out of the delivery valve.

 

[thetool]

Could it be your lift pump? as when you remove a high pressure line from the injector you should get fuel squirting out. Can you try squeezing the primer bulb and crank the engine, see if it starts or at least squirts fuel out of the delivery valve.

Code 22-02 : "Disassemble and inspect fuel injection system" LOL.
Are you still getting codes?

 

[TigerWebb30]

Code 22-02 : "Disassemble and inspect fuel injection system" LOL.
Are you still getting codes?

Fishfiles -- I did take out the seat and the only solenoid I could find is one that is mounted to the outside of the injector pump, or the gear casing that runs the injector pump. I can't really tell for sure if they are two seperate units or if it is all made together. But you can't see anything operating from the outside. There is a small inspection plate on top of that gear housing that I removed and then I could see the rod for the solenoid operating. It pulls out toward the front of the motor when you begin cranking and pushes in toward the back of the motor when you turn the key off. (This is a 2006 model with a 4-cylinder Kubota engine if that helps any) This is the only solenoid I could find so it has to be the fuel shutoff for the injector pump. The only linkage I see on the motor is the throttle linkage and it appears to be intact and operates smoothly when I move the throttle control. All of the injector lines were tight when I broke them loose to see if there was fuel coming out of the top of the pump. How difficult is it to remove the plungers and clean them? Does that require removing the pump or will they come out with the pump in place? Tazza -- I am assuming that there is something wrong with the injector pump at this point because the fuel pump is pushing fuel all the way to the injector pump intake and the fuel cutoff solenoid seems to be working properly. The machine does not have a primer bulb that I have seen. thetool -- I still get the code but I only get it when I crank the engine for several seconds and it doesn't start. I feel like it may be throwing that code because the computer knows that it is trying to start the motor but doesn't get any feedback that the motor is running in a couple of seconds. I don't suspect a problem with the starting circuit since the motor turns over and the fuel shutoff solenoid activates when you begin cranking. Is there anything else required on the electrical side for the motor to run? Could it be possible that the electric fuel pump is not pumping enough pressure to get through the injector pump? The fuel stream does not have a lot of pressure but I wouldn't think that it is supposed to on an engine like this. It is probably pumping between 3-5 pounds. Is that normal or should it be substantially higher than that? I tried a 4-7 pound pump on it that is brand new and that didn't help any so I don't suspect a problem with the fuel pump but I it is just a thought. Thanks for everyone's help so far. Hopefully I will figure it out pretty soon.

 

[thetool]

Fishfiles -- I did take out the seat and the only solenoid I could find is one that is mounted to the outside of the injector pump, or the gear casing that runs the injector pump. I can't really tell for sure if they are two seperate units or if it is all made together. But you can't see anything operating from the outside. There is a small inspection plate on top of that gear housing that I removed and then I could see the rod for the solenoid operating. It pulls out toward the front of the motor when you begin cranking and pushes in toward the back of the motor when you turn the key off. (This is a 2006 model with a 4-cylinder Kubota engine if that helps any) This is the only solenoid I could find so it has to be the fuel shutoff for the injector pump. The only linkage I see on the motor is the throttle linkage and it appears to be intact and operates smoothly when I move the throttle control. All of the injector lines were tight when I broke them loose to see if there was fuel coming out of the top of the pump. How difficult is it to remove the plungers and clean them? Does that require removing the pump or will they come out with the pump in place? Tazza -- I am assuming that there is something wrong with the injector pump at this point because the fuel pump is pushing fuel all the way to the injector pump intake and the fuel cutoff solenoid seems to be working properly. The machine does not have a primer bulb that I have seen. thetool -- I still get the code but I only get it when I crank the engine for several seconds and it doesn't start. I feel like it may be throwing that code because the computer knows that it is trying to start the motor but doesn't get any feedback that the motor is running in a couple of seconds. I don't suspect a problem with the starting circuit since the motor turns over and the fuel shutoff solenoid activates when you begin cranking. Is there anything else required on the electrical side for the motor to run? Could it be possible that the electric fuel pump is not pumping enough pressure to get through the injector pump? The fuel stream does not have a lot of pressure but I wouldn't think that it is supposed to on an engine like this. It is probably pumping between 3-5 pounds. Is that normal or should it be substantially higher than that? I tried a 4-7 pound pump on it that is brand new and that didn't help any so I don't suspect a problem with the fuel pump but I it is just a thought. Thanks for everyone's help so far. Hopefully I will figure it out pretty soon.

Hmmm.....I didn't think they worked that way, but since you say the fuel shutoff is working, it bears some digging into. If it's getting fuel and air it should run. If the shutoff solenoid is plunging while you crank and stays there after you release the key bak to run, it should run.
And that failure(22-02) won't cause it to suddenly die. I guess you're on the most sensible course with the fuel shutoff mechanics in the pump.
One other thought if you can't find a fuel shutoff problem-was it at high or low engine speed when it died? Is the engine cranking speed okay, or does it seem slow? What I'm getting at is a possible inadvertent hydraulic load failure, the pump is swashed to full flow and the engine is trying to start under too much load?
I could use the first four digits of your s/n to dig deeper into possible electrical issues. Can't get back til this evening CMT, but hopefully you'll giterdun by then.
Interesting, let us know.

 

[vinny69]

Hmmm.....I didn't think they worked that way, but since you say the fuel shutoff is working, it bears some digging into. If it's getting fuel and air it should run. If the shutoff solenoid is plunging while you crank and stays there after you release the key bak to run, it should run.
And that failure(22-02) won't cause it to suddenly die. I guess you're on the most sensible course with the fuel shutoff mechanics in the pump.
One other thought if you can't find a fuel shutoff problem-was it at high or low engine speed when it died? Is the engine cranking speed okay, or does it seem slow? What I'm getting at is a possible inadvertent hydraulic load failure, the pump is swashed to full flow and the engine is trying to start under too much load?
I could use the first four digits of your s/n to dig deeper into possible electrical issues. Can't get back til this evening CMT, but hopefully you'll giterdun by then.
Interesting, let us know.

I have a 2008 430 and it has been in the shop twice and only has 30 hours on it. the first time they said it was the ignition that shorted out and fried the computer. the second time they said there is a wiring harness that runs over by the throttle that was to short and was getting pulled on and some wires came undone.

 

[Tazza]

I have a 2008 430 and it has been in the shop twice and only has 30 hours on it. the first time they said it was the ignition that shorted out and fried the computer. the second time they said there is a wiring harness that runs over by the throttle that was to short and was getting pulled on and some wires came undone.

With those hours, is it still under warranty? Surly they shouuld help you out!
Everything points to it being the pump....

 

[stockyv]

With those hours, is it still under warranty? Surly they shouuld help you out!
Everything points to it being the pump....

Hey all, I'm new to this forum because I have the exact same problem with my 443 bobcat. I just replaced the starter motor and was working in the garden with 1 for 2 hours when the engine suddenly shutoff. I was working at around 3/4 WOT and the engine rpms started to go down slowly. I pushed the lever to WOT (full throttle) but that didnt help. Within 5 seconds approximately it slowly shutdown and wont start anymore. I was guessing not fuel anymore but the tank is still at more than 1/" full. Its a 3 cylinder Kubota engine from approx 1998. I hope this is related and we can fidn the problem together. regards, stocky

 

[Fishfiles]

Hey all, I'm new to this forum because I have the exact same problem with my 443 bobcat. I just replaced the starter motor and was working in the garden with 1 for 2 hours when the engine suddenly shutoff. I was working at around 3/4 WOT and the engine rpms started to go down slowly. I pushed the lever to WOT (full throttle) but that didnt help. Within 5 seconds approximately it slowly shutdown and wont start anymore. I was guessing not fuel anymore but the tank is still at more than 1/" full. Its a 3 cylinder Kubota engine from approx 1998. I hope this is related and we can fidn the problem together. regards, stocky

Tiger , I am sorry I didn't respond sooner as I just seen that you addressed me on the 8th , it sounds like you found the run / kill solinoid , and it sounds like it's working ,you can start the engine with the solinoid out and use a screw drive to kill it if it did start ------------the plungers can be unscrewed from the pump --------------have you spun the motor over with the injector tubes off of the plungers and checked to see if any fuel is coming out any of the plungers , the one I last seen do something like this would shoot same amounts of fuel out of only one plunger the first one to the front of engine , nothing out the rest of them , turned out to be the bolts backed out the sliding throttle plate on the side of the injection pump inside the motor ---the pump isn't to bad getting it out , no timing to worry about and it can be tested off the engine by a injector/pump shop -------I think it's the pump or linkage "inside" the engine ----------gasoline mixed in with the fuel at the right mixture will also do what's happening

 

[Tazza]

Hey all, I'm new to this forum because I have the exact same problem with my 443 bobcat. I just replaced the starter motor and was working in the garden with 1 for 2 hours when the engine suddenly shutoff. I was working at around 3/4 WOT and the engine rpms started to go down slowly. I pushed the lever to WOT (full throttle) but that didnt help. Within 5 seconds approximately it slowly shutdown and wont start anymore. I was guessing not fuel anymore but the tank is still at more than 1/" full. Its a 3 cylinder Kubota engine from approx 1998. I hope this is related and we can fidn the problem together. regards, stocky

That sounds like you ran out of fuel, the pickup tube could be broken off in the tank. When you squeeze the primer bulb does it feel firm? if its spongy its a sign you have air in there, bost likley a pluged or broken pickup tube.

 

[stockyv]

That sounds like you ran out of fuel, the pickup tube could be broken off in the tank. When you squeeze the primer bulb does it feel firm? if its spongy its a sign you have air in there, bost likley a pluged or broken pickup tube.

hmmm...do you have a pic how the primer bulb looks like or wher eit is located? I didnt have a look yet under the seat.

 

[stockyv]

hmmm...do you have a pic how the primer bulb looks like or wher eit is located? I didnt have a look yet under the seat.

oh OK just googled for a pic of a primer bulb. But I guess I would need to open the seat to get access to the back of the engine?!

 

[stockyv]

oh OK just googled for a pic of a primer bulb. But I guess I would need to open the seat to get access to the back of the engine?!

is there any place I can download an "parts location" (repair) manual for my bobcat (443) ? thanks

 

[Tazza]

is there any place I can download an "parts location" (repair) manual for my bobcat (443) ? thanks

You won't get a parts book off the net, bobcat sells them though.

It should look something like that.