Melroe 610 611 Deutz manifold heater

[Smellofdiesel]

I have a Melroe 611 with Deutz F2L411 which has always been a devil to start. Someone had removed ALL of the electrics at some point in the dim distant past, so I decided to connect up the manifold heater with a switch etc. Result: instant car-type starts! However after three such starts the manifold heater went open-circuit and it had burnt out. This was caused by the spiral ceramic spacer block between the coiled element rattling about for several decades and wearing the round wire to an odd thin shape, causing a high resistance section that overheated and burnt out. The thread on the heater is either 7/8" x 16 TPI or 22mm x 1.5 pitch, but with only three thread peaks to measure I'm not sure. Does anyone have any idea of a similar part from any other Diesel engine? Older Deutz parts are really expensive and hard to get in Australia. Best regards, David

 

[Tazza]

I assume your engine doesn't have the excess fuel button on the injector pump? My 731 with a detuz had one. Press the button, it would wind over once and fire straight away.

 

[Smellofdiesel]

I assume your engine doesn't have the excess fuel button on the injector pump? My 731 with a detuz had one. Press the button, it would wind over once and fire straight away.

Thanks for the reply: I will have a close look in daylight. I have the service manual for the M611 which includes the Deutz F2L411. This is very poorly written generally, and isn't clear on the 'excess fuel button'. This is definitely pushed by the throttle linkage below idle when stopping the motor., but I mistakenly thought that this was really for cutting off the fuel. I hadn't noticed any other button on the pump. Having read the manual again I can see that this button is supposed to stay down after the motor has been stopped, ready for the next start. I will give this a looking at to check that it is staying down- I'll have a poke around with the trusty mirror-on-a-stick tomorrow. I have just obtained a parts book for the Deutz which shows the manifold coil heater (12V) so it is standard fitment in the manifold. The parts book is a boon but there are no names for the parts or their function, only numbers. I fancied trying to wind a new resistance wire and silver solder it to the threaded plug, but if it fell to bits it would be ingested straight into the cylinders! Maybe a halogen bulb would do the trick, encased in a mesh to contain any debris. Regards, David

 

[Tazza]

Thanks for the reply: I will have a close look in daylight. I have the service manual for the M611 which includes the Deutz F2L411. This is very poorly written generally, and isn't clear on the 'excess fuel button'. This is definitely pushed by the throttle linkage below idle when stopping the motor., but I mistakenly thought that this was really for cutting off the fuel. I hadn't noticed any other button on the pump. Having read the manual again I can see that this button is supposed to stay down after the motor has been stopped, ready for the next start. I will give this a looking at to check that it is staying down- I'll have a poke around with the trusty mirror-on-a-stick tomorrow. I have just obtained a parts book for the Deutz which shows the manifold coil heater (12V) so it is standard fitment in the manifold. The parts book is a boon but there are no names for the parts or their function, only numbers. I fancied trying to wind a new resistance wire and silver solder it to the threaded plug, but if it fell to bits it would be ingested straight into the cylinders! Maybe a halogen bulb would do the trick, encased in a mesh to contain any debris. Regards, David

ITs possible the silver solder route could work. As long as you make it so that the wire does not glow. You want it to reach a few hundred degrees but if it glows the silver solder will melt. Unless you could spot weld it, that would work. The ingestion issue still stands though...
Thats how the button works, when i pressed mine, it would click and fall down, it would rise back up as soon as the engine started. You do need to have the throttle up a little for ir to engage though. Hopefully it has one, it sure made starting a breeze for me.
I'm in .au too, i know your pain with parts prices!

 

[Smellofdiesel]

ITs possible the silver solder route could work. As long as you make it so that the wire does not glow. You want it to reach a few hundred degrees but if it glows the silver solder will melt. Unless you could spot weld it, that would work. The ingestion issue still stands though...
Thats how the button works, when i pressed mine, it would click and fall down, it would rise back up as soon as the engine started. You do need to have the throttle up a little for ir to engage though. Hopefully it has one, it sure made starting a breeze for me.
I'm in .au too, i know your pain with parts prices!

Thanks again for the info. The excess fuel button does appear to be working as you describe, although having had a fiddle with it today the drive seems to be dragging so I can't start the thing. I have 4 clutch plates on order from the States- the ones fitted are a bit sorry, and the right side appears to have a pair of home-made ones just cut out of friction material! I have finished the job for which I bought the machine but now can't bear to part with it as it is so useful: I never lift anything heavy anymore so my back is much healthier. The forklift tines are a big bonus. The goon that 'rebuilt' it removed all of the electrics including the alternator, battery carrier, instrument pod, oil light etc etc. The battery was tied to the rear weight with string, rattling on the starter solenoid. It will need a pair of pots and pistons soon (as soon as the shed is finished) as it uses a fearsome amount of oil and one piston is slapping like a wet cod. Someone in the dark past has removed the variable speed drive and installed a 3-groove fixed pulley back and front. This has a larger pulley on the motor than the drive cross shaft so the machine goes like a scalded cat in a straight line but struggles to 'skid'. I managed to find a variable motor pulley buried in a friend's back yard, but need the RotoSwivel and the front sprung pulley. Bobcat Australia want well over $2000 for the pulley, plus the shipping from Sydney is more than the shipping for the item from the US. They even want $75 for a parts list so that I can tell them which parts they can sell me (or not.) These machines are 40 years old so I don't understand the marketing logic- A set of clutch plates, a drive belt and a pulley are more than the value of most machines, and assuming that these parts are 'New Old Stock' they may as well clear them out at a reasonable cost. Clamber down off soap-box... best regards, David, Great Southern, WA

 

[Tazza]

Thanks again for the info. The excess fuel button does appear to be working as you describe, although having had a fiddle with it today the drive seems to be dragging so I can't start the thing. I have 4 clutch plates on order from the States- the ones fitted are a bit sorry, and the right side appears to have a pair of home-made ones just cut out of friction material! I have finished the job for which I bought the machine but now can't bear to part with it as it is so useful: I never lift anything heavy anymore so my back is much healthier. The forklift tines are a big bonus. The goon that 'rebuilt' it removed all of the electrics including the alternator, battery carrier, instrument pod, oil light etc etc. The battery was tied to the rear weight with string, rattling on the starter solenoid. It will need a pair of pots and pistons soon (as soon as the shed is finished) as it uses a fearsome amount of oil and one piston is slapping like a wet cod. Someone in the dark past has removed the variable speed drive and installed a 3-groove fixed pulley back and front. This has a larger pulley on the motor than the drive cross shaft so the machine goes like a scalded cat in a straight line but struggles to 'skid'. I managed to find a variable motor pulley buried in a friend's back yard, but need the RotoSwivel and the front sprung pulley. Bobcat Australia want well over $2000 for the pulley, plus the shipping from Sydney is more than the shipping for the item from the US. They even want $75 for a parts list so that I can tell them which parts they can sell me (or not.) These machines are 40 years old so I don't understand the marketing logic- A set of clutch plates, a drive belt and a pulley are more than the value of most machines, and assuming that these parts are 'New Old Stock' they may as well clear them out at a reasonable cost. Clamber down off soap-box... best regards, David, Great Southern, WA

They do want to sell a parts list, generally you can talk to them and they will fax you a copy. As for freight, thats stupid! My dealer will ship from sydney to the brisbane dealer and i pick up from there, no freight.
My dad mentioned that you should contact “diesel parts and service” I'm not sure where their offices are, but there is one in Brisbane.
Its a shame i didn't keep the old engine that my 731 came with, it had a used one installed from a dynapac roller. I gave the engine away with the machine when i sold it :(
Sadly i suspect new pots, pistons and rings will burn you badly..... You never know, you may get away with a new set of rings if you measure the old pistons and bores. You did say there was some piston slap, so there may be more wear than can easily be fixed...
I hear ya on the not moving heavy things anymore, i do the same. After i got my 731, i could never do without a skid steer!

 

[Smellofdiesel]

They do want to sell a parts list, generally you can talk to them and they will fax you a copy. As for freight, thats stupid! My dealer will ship from sydney to the brisbane dealer and i pick up from there, no freight.
My dad mentioned that you should contact “diesel parts and service” I'm not sure where their offices are, but there is one in Brisbane.
Its a shame i didn't keep the old engine that my 731 came with, it had a used one installed from a dynapac roller. I gave the engine away with the machine when i sold it :(
Sadly i suspect new pots, pistons and rings will burn you badly..... You never know, you may get away with a new set of rings if you measure the old pistons and bores. You did say there was some piston slap, so there may be more wear than can easily be fixed...
I hear ya on the not moving heavy things anymore, i do the same. After i got my 731, i could never do without a skid steer!

I had a bit more time yesterday, so had a good poke around with the fan cover off- The button seemd a bit iffy and worn, and underneath, on the side, was some form of adjuster with a cover cap, so I decided to unscrew it (and count the turns) to see what was on the other end. What was that about curiosity and cats? Something clicked inside immediately and the button slid out of sight and fell inside! After much stamping around the yard in a beef-red huff and uttering vile language, I set about pulling off the side cover on the motor. This wasn't so bad, and no adjustments are lost in doing so; only a smidgen of oil is lost too. All is now clear: The button which is variously described in the manual for the M610/ 611 is actually a fuel cut-off button. The adjuster that I turned acts as an idle stop for the injector pump rack; the outside stop is only for the lever. Pushing the button down releases a trip that allows the rack to spring to a cut-off position. Opening the throttle again clicks the trip so that the idle stop is reengaged. Pulling the throttle lever to idle hits the external stop but extra force deflects the lever against a leaf spring joined to the lever. This allows an external mechanism to push the button down and cut off the fuel at the injector pump. I am now the enlightened one. I have taken some pics if anyone is interested. I suspect that some Deutz versions must have an Excess Fuel button actually on the injector pump, but this button is on the side cover at the side of the pump. The whole mechanism wasn't set up properly (surprise, surprise...) but it soon will be... Now where was I? Oh, yeah: Manifold pre-heater...

 

[Smellofdiesel]

I had a bit more time yesterday, so had a good poke around with the fan cover off- The button seemd a bit iffy and worn, and underneath, on the side, was some form of adjuster with a cover cap, so I decided to unscrew it (and count the turns) to see what was on the other end. What was that about curiosity and cats? Something clicked inside immediately and the button slid out of sight and fell inside! After much stamping around the yard in a beef-red huff and uttering vile language, I set about pulling off the side cover on the motor. This wasn't so bad, and no adjustments are lost in doing so; only a smidgen of oil is lost too. All is now clear: The button which is variously described in the manual for the M610/ 611 is actually a fuel cut-off button. The adjuster that I turned acts as an idle stop for the injector pump rack; the outside stop is only for the lever. Pushing the button down releases a trip that allows the rack to spring to a cut-off position. Opening the throttle again clicks the trip so that the idle stop is reengaged. Pulling the throttle lever to idle hits the external stop but extra force deflects the lever against a leaf spring joined to the lever. This allows an external mechanism to push the button down and cut off the fuel at the injector pump. I am now the enlightened one. I have taken some pics if anyone is interested. I suspect that some Deutz versions must have an Excess Fuel button actually on the injector pump, but this button is on the side cover at the side of the pump. The whole mechanism wasn't set up properly (surprise, surprise...) but it soon will be... Now where was I? Oh, yeah: Manifold pre-heater...

Apologies to Tazza, if he is still reading this: When I came to reassemble the cover I realised that I had got the IDLE and FULL directions of the injector pump rack completely reversed in my head. The button he mentioned WAS the same as the button that I was talking about. It has exactly the opposite effect to that which I described earlier- it acts as an excess fuel button by, in effect, allowing the injector to open further then the governor would allow during start-up. Very sorry for the confusion!

 

[Tazza]

Apologies to Tazza, if he is still reading this: When I came to reassemble the cover I realised that I had got the IDLE and FULL directions of the injector pump rack completely reversed in my head. The button he mentioned WAS the same as the button that I was talking about. It has exactly the opposite effect to that which I described earlier- it acts as an excess fuel button by, in effect, allowing the injector to open further then the governor would allow during start-up. Very sorry for the confusion!

I'm still amazed that even with that button you have a hard time starting the machine. I found with mine, it would fire right up when i used it.
Have you had any luck finding a heater for the inlet manifold?

 

[Smellofdiesel]

I'm still amazed that even with that button you have a hard time starting the machine. I found with mine, it would fire right up when i used it.
Have you had any luck finding a heater for the inlet manifold?

The machine is starting very well at present and the starting button is set up correctly now- it was partly jammed because it had worn away the aluminium pawl that it pushes down on. This part seems to be coated with a very tough grey coating almost like Teflon (or Nikkasil?) along with the other levers that are pushed by the governor system, but the pin had been forced past the pawl and worn it away. I fashioned a piece of thin stainless for it to bear on and wrapped it around the small arm, with a 'safety' tab to stop it ever falling off (!?) The pin was also badly worn on both ends so I turned it square again, radiused the inner end and lengthened it with a 4mm socket screw on the outside end.
Also we are coming to summer here so the mornings are a bit warmer, but I was warming the manifold by shooting a hot-air paint stripper into the heater hole on the manifold, but it starts OK without now.
I haven't followed up the heater plug, although I called at the local machinery scrappers a while ago: it must be 10 hectares (that's a lot of acres, for any US of A readers) of rows of sad wrecks of combines, tractors, loaders, balers etc. The boss took me on a route march to what can only be described as a paddock full of manifolds. I wish I'd had a camera! Most had a threaded hole for a heater but all were the 'inferno' type ie diesel sprayed in and ignited. I didn't think the Melroe rubber manifold pipe would appreciate that! There is a TE20 heater on eBay at present but it is AU$60 plus which was too much, and the thread is wrong. I'm fine without at present.

 

[Tazza]

The machine is starting very well at present and the starting button is set up correctly now- it was partly jammed because it had worn away the aluminium pawl that it pushes down on. This part seems to be coated with a very tough grey coating almost like Teflon (or Nikkasil?) along with the other levers that are pushed by the governor system, but the pin had been forced past the pawl and worn it away. I fashioned a piece of thin stainless for it to bear on and wrapped it around the small arm, with a 'safety' tab to stop it ever falling off (!?) The pin was also badly worn on both ends so I turned it square again, radiused the inner end and lengthened it with a 4mm socket screw on the outside end.
Also we are coming to summer here so the mornings are a bit warmer, but I was warming the manifold by shooting a hot-air paint stripper into the heater hole on the manifold, but it starts OK without now.
I haven't followed up the heater plug, although I called at the local machinery scrappers a while ago: it must be 10 hectares (that's a lot of acres, for any US of A readers) of rows of sad wrecks of combines, tractors, loaders, balers etc. The boss took me on a route march to what can only be described as a paddock full of manifolds. I wish I'd had a camera! Most had a threaded hole for a heater but all were the 'inferno' type ie diesel sprayed in and ignited. I didn't think the Melroe rubber manifold pipe would appreciate that! There is a TE20 heater on eBay at present but it is AU$60 plus which was too much, and the thread is wrong. I'm fine without at present.

That sure would be something to see!
Good to hear you got the excess fuel button working. For it to be worn like that, it sure must have a few hours up. I know the old deutz engines sure do rattle, that won't have helped with the wear either.
I like the idea of a heat gun, very clever.

 

[Tazza]

That sure would be something to see!
Good to hear you got the excess fuel button working. For it to be worn like that, it sure must have a few hours up. I know the old deutz engines sure do rattle, that won't have helped with the wear either.
I like the idea of a heat gun, very clever.

David
Have you looked at these guys?
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/DEUTZ-ENGINE...=AU_Car_Parts_Accessories&hash=item19bfe510a0