853 control valve questions

[perry]

I removed the control valve on my 853 because of a 'hard' spot with boom operation, everything looks good I think?, pistons not scarred and no leaking from either end, seals and bushings seem ok but I ordered four of each anyway?. I see how the balls would be hard to reinstall, I was thinking grease might help hold them in?. I didn't fine anything that was obviously damaged or out of place and I don't want to reassemble everything and find that I still have the same problem?. Suggestions please.

 

[perry]

Oh yeah!, when I pulled the end cup off, three balls fell out?, it looks like only two should be there?. the cup has two cutouts so, shouldn't there be just two?.

 

[Tazza]

Oh yeah!, when I pulled the end cup off, three balls fell out?, it looks like only two should be there?. the cup has two cutouts so, shouldn't there be just two?.

Yes, just 2 balls, but i think there are 2 more inside. Between the spool and the metal cup. I'm wondering if this could be your problem. I actually used a cable tie to hold the balls in to slide the cover back on. Grease sure does help too.

 

[thetool]

Yes, just 2 balls, but i think there are 2 more inside. Between the spool and the metal cup. I'm wondering if this could be your problem. I actually used a cable tie to hold the balls in to slide the cover back on. Grease sure does help too.

Good idea with the zip tie on the detent stuff, Tazza. I'm spoiled with the special pliers. Making Do Down Under!
I agree that the springs and balls are the problem. There are 4 total balls and two springs. If three fell out, 1 is hanging up and causing the bind. The spring is actually the culprit-with no ball on the end keeping it inside it sticks out and gets bent over.

 

[perry]

Yes, just 2 balls, but i think there are 2 more inside. Between the spool and the metal cup. I'm wondering if this could be your problem. I actually used a cable tie to hold the balls in to slide the cover back on. Grease sure does help too.

According to my parts book schematic, there are only two steel balls. Overall the valve was clean so I hope the new seals fix the problem?.

 

[Tazza]

According to my parts book schematic, there are only two steel balls. Overall the valve was clean so I hope the new seals fix the problem?.

If its the same as the ones i have seen, you need to remove the bolt from the end of the spool to get access. There should be 4 balls, 2 that run in the outer housing, 2 that run on the inner one.
If it still binds up, try rotating the spool 180 degrees. I doubt its the spool thats binding as you would see marks on it if it was. Hopefully the seals will fix your problem, but i would seriously look for the other 2 balls, i'm sure they are there.... Look down the end where the spring is, can you see 2 marks down the side of the metal housing at all?

 

[perry]

If its the same as the ones i have seen, you need to remove the bolt from the end of the spool to get access. There should be 4 balls, 2 that run in the outer housing, 2 that run on the inner one.
If it still binds up, try rotating the spool 180 degrees. I doubt its the spool thats binding as you would see marks on it if it was. Hopefully the seals will fix your problem, but i would seriously look for the other 2 balls, i'm sure they are there.... Look down the end where the spring is, can you see 2 marks down the side of the metal housing at all?

Tazza, I cannot find where two other ball might go?. The pictures show the cup, inner sleeve for the cup and spool, I compressed the spring and did not find where two other balls might fit?. The page from my parts book shows only two steel balls?. There number 33.
You got me confused Tazza?.

http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u253/perrynboo/005800x600.jpg
<a href="http://s170.photobucket.com/albums/u253/perrynboo/?action=view&current=005800x600.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u253/perrynboo/005800x600.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

 

[perry]

Tazza, I cannot find where two other ball might go?. The pictures show the cup, inner sleeve for the cup and spool, I compressed the spring and did not find where two other balls might fit?. The page from my parts book shows only two steel balls?. There number 33.
You got me confused Tazza?.






http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u253/perrynboo/005800x600.jpg
<a href="http://s170.photobucket.com/albums/u253/perrynboo/?action=view&current=005800x600.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u253/perrynboo/005800x600.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

Sorry Tazza, here are links for bigger pictures...

http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u253/perrynboo/003800x600.jpg

http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u253/perrynboo/001800x600.jpg

http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u253/perrynboo/005800x600.jpg

 

[Tazza]

Sorry Tazza, here are links for bigger pictures...

http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u253/perrynboo/003800x600.jpg

http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u253/perrynboo/001800x600.jpg

http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u253/perrynboo/005800x600.jpg

I'm really not sure.... If you look at the parts breakdown it shows 2 springs and 4 balls, you said you only had 3 come out. I don't know if yours uses 4 to lock in or 2 on the outside and 2 on the inside. If you look at item 31 you will see the springs and balls at 90 degrees to each other. Are there 2 holes drilled in the end? if not, you will have one hidden inside that steel cup, but you need to remove the bolt at the end of the spool to access it. It will be under spring pressure and tight! you may need to heat it first to get the loctite to let it come free. This is only if you can't find where that third ball came from, if its from here it has to be your problem.

 

[perry]

I'm really not sure.... If you look at the parts breakdown it shows 2 springs and 4 balls, you said you only had 3 come out. I don't know if yours uses 4 to lock in or 2 on the outside and 2 on the inside. If you look at item 31 you will see the springs and balls at 90 degrees to each other. Are there 2 holes drilled in the end? if not, you will have one hidden inside that steel cup, but you need to remove the bolt at the end of the spool to access it. It will be under spring pressure and tight! you may need to heat it first to get the loctite to let it come free. This is only if you can't find where that third ball came from, if its from here it has to be your problem.

Your right, I didn't look close enough. I either dropped one or it wasn't there?. I'll pick up some new ones at ace hardware, they always seem to have them small hard to find parts like steel balls!.
Thanks,,

 

[perry]

Your right, I didn't look close enough. I either dropped one or it wasn't there?. I'll pick up some new ones at ace hardware, they always seem to have them small hard to find parts like steel balls!.
Thanks,,

I just went out and put some real pressure on the spring and found the other crossed drilled hole with spring still intact, it looks like whoever rebuilt it, didn't do it right!.

 

[Tazza]

I just went out and put some real pressure on the spring and found the other crossed drilled hole with spring still intact, it looks like whoever rebuilt it, didn't do it right!.

Hopefully thats your problem, the the balls i would get the rite ones from the dealer, they are like 30c each! and you know they are the rite ones.

 

[perry]

Hopefully thats your problem, the the balls i would get the rite ones from the dealer, they are like 30c each! and you know they are the rite ones.

I noticed they were a little loose in the hole, I'll take my dial indicator to make sure there so close it won't make any difference. Or order some.

 

[perry]

I noticed they were a little loose in the hole, I'll take my dial indicator to make sure there so close it won't make any difference. Or order some.

Aside from the confusion on the balls, the control valve isn't all that complicated. only five moving parts.

 

[perry]

Aside from the confusion on the balls, the control valve isn't all that complicated. only five moving parts.

Tazza, correct me if I'm wrong...The center piece with the two cutouts is made to hold the paddle down while floating the bucket?..Correct?.

 

[Tazza]

Tazza, correct me if I'm wrong...The center piece with the two cutouts is made to hold the paddle down while floating the bucket?..Correct?.

You are talking where the balls pop out into to lock the spool in place? if so yes, thats exactly what its for. Thats why they need to be just the rite size, if they are too small you risk them popping out and not going back in to let the spool slide back.

 

[perry]

You are talking where the balls pop out into to lock the spool in place? if so yes, thats exactly what its for. Thats why they need to be just the rite size, if they are too small you risk them popping out and not going back in to let the spool slide back.

Tazza, before I reassemble I have another question......
The center cup with the cutouts, Should the cutouts line up with the balls under the spring after assembly?. If so there is no way to keep the cutouts lined up with the balls once it's all assembled. if that's the way there supposed to be?. I mean when the paddled is heel pushed, are the balls suppose to push out into the cutouts?.
It looks like the cup with the cutouts is used to insert the balls, when I put the cup on and push the spring down I can install the balls. Is that what the cup with the cut outs is used for?.
I'm sort of confused, hope I explained it correctly?.
It just looks like there is nothing to keep the cup from rotating with all pushing on the paddle?.

Thanks
http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u253/perrynboo/001800x600.jpg

 

[Tazza]

Tazza, before I reassemble I have another question......
The center cup with the cutouts, Should the cutouts line up with the balls under the spring after assembly?. If so there is no way to keep the cutouts lined up with the balls once it's all assembled. if that's the way there supposed to be?. I mean when the paddled is heel pushed, are the balls suppose to push out into the cutouts?.
It looks like the cup with the cutouts is used to insert the balls, when I put the cup on and push the spring down I can install the balls. Is that what the cup with the cut outs is used for?.
I'm sort of confused, hope I explained it correctly?.
It just looks like there is nothing to keep the cup from rotating with all pushing on the paddle?.

Thanks
http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u253/perrynboo/001800x600.jpg

Thats a good question.... Mine didn't have them, i actually set mine up 90 degrees to the wear marks inside the housing. I know it will rotate on its own a little but but i still tried. I don't know if the travel will be long enough for the balls to escape through the cut outs. I can't see them being for installation as there are pliers that are used for this. If it was me, I'd line it up so that its running in fresh metal inside the cup but not so that if the balls slid all the way forward they would pop out the cut outs, if that makes sense. I'd like for it to run on a nice un-worn section. Also i added a bit of grease to the inside of mine, figured it can't hurt.

 

[perry]

Thats a good question.... Mine didn't have them, i actually set mine up 90 degrees to the wear marks inside the housing. I know it will rotate on its own a little but but i still tried. I don't know if the travel will be long enough for the balls to escape through the cut outs. I can't see them being for installation as there are pliers that are used for this. If it was me, I'd line it up so that its running in fresh metal inside the cup but not so that if the balls slid all the way forward they would pop out the cut outs, if that makes sense. I'd like for it to run on a nice un-worn section. Also i added a bit of grease to the inside of mine, figured it can't hurt.

Makes very good sense, Thanks Tazza......