small metal flakes in carrier oil

[siduramaxde]

Just as the title reads. I changed the drive motor carrier oil today and one side had very small metal flakes in it. When I bought the machine 3 years ago I changed all the fluids and when I changed oil on this same carrier then it had very little oil come out. It was also very black oil. That was about 300 hours ago and now when I change it there is plenty of oil but there are metal flakes in the oil. I do change this oil about every 100hrs. So this is the 3rd time since the first time I changed it. Is there anything I can do to prevent a major repair? Can the part be taken apart and a new bearing installed before it does major damage? How do I know if my machine has the updated carriers? Thanks in advance for the help.

 

[thetool]

I'm assuming you're writing about the drive motor hub oil?
The T200 is what the 864 was. They used the same drive motors when they made the first T250's and T300's, and the hubs that worked okay in the 864 were too girly for the large frame loaders.
I don't know if they ever updated the motors for the T200 to have the same hubs as the large frame loaders. On the large frame loaders, you can tell if they are the latest motor/hub if the drive sprocket is over 3" deep or so from the bolt hole face to the drive gear ring. The old school motors used a shallower dish on the drive sprocket, about 2 1/2" deep. That's how I tell by looking at the machine.
What I am not sure of is the undercarriage set-up on the T200, whether it's the same and whether you can tell by looking at the sprockets.
You have a bearing failure in your hub. Some of that metal is also in your case drain filter. You can pull down your hub now, replace the bearings, and if it's not to far gone, save yourself a bundle over the cost of both motors at least, if you keep going with it.
It's a process to replace the bearings, tho. They're highly loaded and you need a press. That's why they run this special expensive oil I've been moaning about so much.
I don't know what kind of oil you've been using in your oil changes. If you weren't using the right stuff, that could have caused your failure. Bobcat recommends changing the hub oil every 500 hours.
Best case is you're looking at bearings and a seal kit. It's not going to be cheap now, but a motor is like 4 grand, I believe.
I hope you'll let us know what happens.
Good Luck.

 

[siduramaxde]

I'm assuming you're writing about the drive motor hub oil?
The T200 is what the 864 was. They used the same drive motors when they made the first T250's and T300's, and the hubs that worked okay in the 864 were too girly for the large frame loaders.
I don't know if they ever updated the motors for the T200 to have the same hubs as the large frame loaders. On the large frame loaders, you can tell if they are the latest motor/hub if the drive sprocket is over 3" deep or so from the bolt hole face to the drive gear ring. The old school motors used a shallower dish on the drive sprocket, about 2 1/2" deep. That's how I tell by looking at the machine.
What I am not sure of is the undercarriage set-up on the T200, whether it's the same and whether you can tell by looking at the sprockets.
You have a bearing failure in your hub. Some of that metal is also in your case drain filter. You can pull down your hub now, replace the bearings, and if it's not to far gone, save yourself a bundle over the cost of both motors at least, if you keep going with it.
It's a process to replace the bearings, tho. They're highly loaded and you need a press. That's why they run this special expensive oil I've been moaning about so much.
I don't know what kind of oil you've been using in your oil changes. If you weren't using the right stuff, that could have caused your failure. Bobcat recommends changing the hub oil every 500 hours.
Best case is you're looking at bearings and a seal kit. It's not going to be cheap now, but a motor is like 4 grand, I believe.
I hope you'll let us know what happens.
Good Luck.

I have been using vavoiline syn power 75w - 140 full synthetic. Any idea on how much the bearing and seals will cost?

 

[thetool]

I have been using vavoiline syn power 75w - 140 full synthetic. Any idea on how much the bearing and seals will cost?

I'm going to Bobcat today to get some other sruff, and I'll find out.
I did some reconsidertion about my previous post. I slept on it.....=)
If you have the metal flakes in your case drain filter, your motor is probably trashed. This is because the bearing in the hub, or carrier as it's called in your manual, came apart and debris took out the seal between the motor and the carrier. The debris then enters the case drain flow and is carried to the filter. Or, the failed bearing lets the shaft wobble, and that wears the splines on it and the rotating group in the motor and grinds that up. Either way, the cost of the damaged parts usually exceed the cost of a new motor.
If your case drain filter is clean, the rest of your motor is probably OK.
So, in addition to your repair, you MUST inspect the inside of your case drain filter. I suspect you already know this, but I'm sort of thinking out loud here.
I've been doing a lot of thinking and ranting about the efficacy of these case drain filters, and in this case, since you do you hub oil changes regularly, it's good that you have it.
Now, Bobcat recommends that you use their hub oil, and it's outrageously expensive. I'm in the process of finding an alternate source for this oil, but I'm afraid to use any substitute with the failures I've seen.
I've been posting about this all over this board, I guess it's becoming a pet peeve of mine.

 

[siduramaxde]

I'm going to Bobcat today to get some other sruff, and I'll find out.
I did some reconsidertion about my previous post. I slept on it.....=)
If you have the metal flakes in your case drain filter, your motor is probably trashed. This is because the bearing in the hub, or carrier as it's called in your manual, came apart and debris took out the seal between the motor and the carrier. The debris then enters the case drain flow and is carried to the filter. Or, the failed bearing lets the shaft wobble, and that wears the splines on it and the rotating group in the motor and grinds that up. Either way, the cost of the damaged parts usually exceed the cost of a new motor.
If your case drain filter is clean, the rest of your motor is probably OK.
So, in addition to your repair, you MUST inspect the inside of your case drain filter. I suspect you already know this, but I'm sort of thinking out loud here.
I've been doing a lot of thinking and ranting about the efficacy of these case drain filters, and in this case, since you do you hub oil changes regularly, it's good that you have it.
Now, Bobcat recommends that you use their hub oil, and it's outrageously expensive. I'm in the process of finding an alternate source for this oil, but I'm afraid to use any substitute with the failures I've seen.
I've been posting about this all over this board, I guess it's becoming a pet peeve of mine.

OK, here's what I have all learned today. More than likely my drive motor is not trashed.....yet. As thetool has said there is a seal(s) to keep the "special" hub oil out of the motor. I had small metal flakes in the hub oil. I don't think that my seal between the motor and the carrier is damaged due to the fact that I always get the same amount of oil out of the hub that I put in. I believe tha metal flakes are from the previous owners lack of changing the hub oil and then I got it changed just in time. However, I believe that failure is not far off for me. Today, I changed the hub oil on the bad side multiple times to gat as much metal out as possible. After "flushing" the hub there were hardly any flakes to come out and I feel pretty confident. However, I have myself convinced that I will be better off with a wheeled machine so I feel it is time to trade. I called and got prices on just the hub bearing and the seal kit and the dealer wants almost $2000 just for these parts. A mew motor and sprocket runs about $4300. These are just part prices. I am done with T series machines. They become a money pit . If you wanted to put an entire U/C, drive motors, tracks, idlers, and roller, you would spend almost $20,000. I've already done the tracks and one idler, thats enough. I'm in the market for a S250 with 2 speed.

 

[thetool]

OK, here's what I have all learned today. More than likely my drive motor is not trashed.....yet. As thetool has said there is a seal(s) to keep the "special" hub oil out of the motor. I had small metal flakes in the hub oil. I don't think that my seal between the motor and the carrier is damaged due to the fact that I always get the same amount of oil out of the hub that I put in. I believe tha metal flakes are from the previous owners lack of changing the hub oil and then I got it changed just in time. However, I believe that failure is not far off for me. Today, I changed the hub oil on the bad side multiple times to gat as much metal out as possible. After "flushing" the hub there were hardly any flakes to come out and I feel pretty confident. However, I have myself convinced that I will be better off with a wheeled machine so I feel it is time to trade. I called and got prices on just the hub bearing and the seal kit and the dealer wants almost $2000 just for these parts. A mew motor and sprocket runs about $4300. These are just part prices. I am done with T series machines. They become a money pit . If you wanted to put an entire U/C, drive motors, tracks, idlers, and roller, you would spend almost $20,000. I've already done the tracks and one idler, thats enough. I'm in the market for a S250 with 2 speed.

Sorry, you sound a little dejected. I was scared to post what I found out today about parts interchangeability and prices and updates and all, which is about what you found out. The dealership is just selling new motors when the hubs fail, because the cost for motor parts is outrageous.
S250 2 -speed is a good machine, but I can tell you some things to watch out for on that model, also having to do with case drain filter nightmares.
Even so, in reading some of your past posts and here, it sounds like you were very contientious about maintenance on your T200, more so than the average guy I come across. I think that if you had started off with a new machine, you probably would have had a better "T" experience.......=).

 

[siduramaxde]

Sorry, you sound a little dejected. I was scared to post what I found out today about parts interchangeability and prices and updates and all, which is about what you found out. The dealership is just selling new motors when the hubs fail, because the cost for motor parts is outrageous.
S250 2 -speed is a good machine, but I can tell you some things to watch out for on that model, also having to do with case drain filter nightmares.
Even so, in reading some of your past posts and here, it sounds like you were very contientious about maintenance on your T200, more so than the average guy I come across. I think that if you had started off with a new machine, you probably would have had a better "T" experience.......=).

I would love to have a new machine but I only put about 100-150 hours on per year so I can't justify the high cost of new. I put the most hours on when plowing snow, which I know the track machine is not best at. However, I own a landscaping business and the tracks are great for running across yards with full pallets of block and minimal damage. I think I can greatly lower my operating costs by using a S250 with 2 speed in the snow and then fitting it with over the tire tracks(rubber pads) in the summer. What can you tell me to look out for with the S250? What year did the K series machines come out?

 

[Fishfiles]

I would love to have a new machine but I only put about 100-150 hours on per year so I can't justify the high cost of new. I put the most hours on when plowing snow, which I know the track machine is not best at. However, I own a landscaping business and the tracks are great for running across yards with full pallets of block and minimal damage. I think I can greatly lower my operating costs by using a S250 with 2 speed in the snow and then fitting it with over the tire tracks(rubber pads) in the summer. What can you tell me to look out for with the S250? What year did the K series machines come out?

Very expensive to repair and maintain a T series , no doubt , I was crunhing some numbers with a guy the other day on his T 200 that was gets some more money thrown into it , and we figured the bad luck repair parts he had , labor , oil and filter changes and new tracks , rollers , idlers a couple of times divided by the hours on the meter and he spent $20 pr hour on the machine , that didn't include his note , insurance or fuel bill , add the operators pay and how much do you have to charge to break even , it's scarey when you think about it like that

 

[siduramaxde]

Very expensive to repair and maintain a T series , no doubt , I was crunhing some numbers with a guy the other day on his T 200 that was gets some more money thrown into it , and we figured the bad luck repair parts he had , labor , oil and filter changes and new tracks , rollers , idlers a couple of times divided by the hours on the meter and he spent $20 pr hour on the machine , that didn't include his note , insurance or fuel bill , add the operators pay and how much do you have to charge to break even , it's scarey when you think about it like that

Update: I took the case drain filters off and they were both clean so I guess my drive motors are fine. I started the process of removing the track drive motor so I can replace the bearings and seals. I will try to take some pics of the process. Any idea on how heavy the drive motor is?

 

[siduramaxde]

Update: I took the case drain filters off and they were both clean so I guess my drive motors are fine. I started the process of removing the track drive motor so I can replace the bearings and seals. I will try to take some pics of the process. Any idea on how heavy the drive motor is?

So I got the machine back together and it works just fine. Replacing the outer bearing is not that bad of a job. The motor is heavy but I managed to take it out and put it in by myself. You don't have to tare the whole motor apart to get to the outer bearing. I think it was just 8 bolts (14mm allen) and the hub comes off. After that it's pretty self explanitory. I have the manual and it tells you to load the hub bearing to 9000lbs. and then use a feeler gauge to find the correct thrust washer to use. I asked my dealer about this and they said that they didn't make any other size washer than the one that is in there. So I just used the same washer that I took out when I reassembled. My dealer also let me use the special tool used to load the bearing and install the split ring. You could make this tool out of a large pipe but the tool works great. Then it was just a matter of putting the pieces back together. Not bad at all. I highly suggest changing your hub oil out often (I do mine every 100 hours) and inspect the oil. I also don't buy the expensive oil the bobcat sells. Instead I buy a quart of Vavoiline 75w-140 synthetic from NAPA. It seems to work just fine. The reason my hub bearing went out was due to the previous owner not changing the hub oil. I had to drill the plug out to change it the first time. The other drive motor hub seems to be doing just fine with the Vavoiline oil.

 

[siduramaxde]

So I got the machine back together and it works just fine. Replacing the outer bearing is not that bad of a job. The motor is heavy but I managed to take it out and put it in by myself. You don't have to tare the whole motor apart to get to the outer bearing. I think it was just 8 bolts (14mm allen) and the hub comes off. After that it's pretty self explanitory. I have the manual and it tells you to load the hub bearing to 9000lbs. and then use a feeler gauge to find the correct thrust washer to use. I asked my dealer about this and they said that they didn't make any other size washer than the one that is in there. So I just used the same washer that I took out when I reassembled. My dealer also let me use the special tool used to load the bearing and install the split ring. You could make this tool out of a large pipe but the tool works great. Then it was just a matter of putting the pieces back together. Not bad at all. I highly suggest changing your hub oil out often (I do mine every 100 hours) and inspect the oil. I also don't buy the expensive oil the bobcat sells. Instead I buy a quart of Vavoiline 75w-140 synthetic from NAPA. It seems to work just fine. The reason my hub bearing went out was due to the previous owner not changing the hub oil. I had to drill the plug out to change it the first time. The other drive motor hub seems to be doing just fine with the Vavoiline oil.

BTW - I have listed part #'s in this thread: http://www.skidsteerforum.com/DesktopDefault.aspx?tabid=54&frmView=ShowPost&PostID=19443

 

[Fishfiles]

BTW - I have listed part #'s in this thread: http://www.skidsteerforum.com/DesktopDefault.aspx?tabid=54&frmView=ShowPost&PostID=19443

I think changing it every 100 hours that you will be fine using the 85-140 ------- the travel motor is pretty heavy and akward to handle and line the bolts up , what I do is use two bull pins which are iron worker line up bars and put one in a hole on each side the travel motor , this gives you two handles to hold onto and lift with and it lines up the holes , putting your knee against the unit holds it in place till you get a bolt started ----------another trick to make it easier to do is use a breaker bar with a deep dish socket to hold the nuts on the inside while using a 3/4 impact to loosen and tighten the 8 bolts