newb with questions

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jeffb

Member
Joined
May 31, 2010
Messages
24
hello to everyone on this forum. i have been reading this forum for a while and finally decided i just have to join. you guys share some really good information on skid steers, and i am learning more and more every day. i have a few questions and i hope not to ruin my welcome. first i am looking at buying a bobcat s175, s185, s220 or t190, have not really decided just trying to see whats out there used. so if anyone knows the whereabouts of a good used machine in the southern states area, id be much ablidged. does the same oil go in hydro as in chain case? does the s175 use synthetic oil for the engine? is it hard on tires? will it do better with tracks over the tires? thats all for now. im starting slow. also i do intend to make money with the machine in landscape, brushclearing and whatever else comes along. there seems to be good money in skidsteer work, more versatile than a bulldozer, is that so? thanks again for all your information so far, look forward to learning more in the days ahead. keep up the good work . you can PM me if that's allowed with any info you would like to share., or if i can help, i'm a dodge cummins 20 year tech. i just want a new challenge that's fun at the same time. thanks again JeffB
 

Tazza

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Dec 7, 2004
Messages
16,829
Welcome
First off, you need to let us know what sort of dirt work you will be doing, where abouts, hilly, flat, rocky, wet.
Tracks are great for traction and flotation over soft soil. They cost more to run than tyres, with wear, idlers etc.
Tyres are a good all rounder. They don't wear as fast but less traction in the wet and not as nice over bumpy ground. They are cheap to replace and more common.
What weight are you looking at lifting with it too?
There are so many things to consider.
I'd asvise you stay away from any machine with SJC/hand controls. If they are done with push/pull cables thats fine, but the actuators can drive a person crazy and broke as mostly its a dealer only fix.They will need to hook it to a computer if its not the correct software version.
Just a few things to consider.
 

Iowa Dave

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 20, 2008
Messages
121
If only one machine, I'd go with a wheeled unit. Much more versatile, much cheaper to operate. Also, a tracked unit, in my opinion, need to be bought new or near-new. Many, many people never check/change the case drain filters and the hub oil, and that can become a $10,000 lesson. You can rent a tracked machine for under $200 a day on the rare occasions you need it. That being said, I own 3 wheeled units and a T-190 currently, and a tracked machine is the BEST for grading, but you must stay on dirt 99% of the time or you will eat up the tracks. I rented tracked machines as needed for several years before my business grew to the place that I could keep one busy every single day, and then I bought. Some advise about the business side:
1) No money in just pushing dirt around--anyone can rent a machine and do that.
2) No money in subcontracting for others like homebuilders, concrete companies, etc--they want to pay you wholesale prices and give you the stuff that is too difficult and costly for them to do themselves, and they take forever to pay.
3)Not much work is available working by the hour--the rates you need to charge to earn a good living, and pay the help, and pay the excavator's insurance, workman's comp, machinery expenses, truck expenses, etc, will seem to high for most people's likes.
4) Become a problem-solver, and work exclusively by bid. If you fix a client's damp basement, repair their driveway, beautify their outdoor living space, etc, then you are improving their quality of life, and that pays a whole lot better than pushing dirt around for "x" dollars an hour. Of course to do this you must be GREAT at what you do.
5) I just said you had to do exceptional work, which is for the most part very true. But in many markets, there are LOTS of firms doing great work, so you need to set yourself apart from them: return every call promptly; always do as you promise; go bid a job within 24-48 hrs of the initial contact--the early bird DOES get the worm;
6) have shiny equipment--not new, but washed up/painted up looking neat--you can't charge premium prices with a poor image. I have 10-year-old trucks and machines with lots of miles/hours that, if you weren't familiar with the various model changes, could pass as new;
7) leave the jobsite SPOTLESS; plywood lawns, don't tear them up; keep the client in the loop if things have to deviate from the plan;
8) EAT your mistakes, and correct them no matter the cost; guarantee all work always; be honest and walk away from something over your abilities;
9) learn to judge people from your initial contact, and occasionally turn down the chance to bid if your gut tells you they will be impossible to please--a select few people are;
10) NEVER "haggle down" on your bid--that will get around and you will end up dickering and working for less all the time--even if you later regret your bid (wish you had been lower), stick to it and learn from it;
11) get paid for change orders at a rate HIGHER than your normal rate, as it screws up your schedule and makes you late to the next job--so don't do it unless you get well-paid for it--usually I just tell them I don't have time for changes but would bid the additional work and come back. CHANGE ORDERS HAVE TO BE BIG MONEY TO BE WORTH THE HASSLE ASSUMING YOU ARE BUSY.
12) Throw a little something in for free, something that will make the customer's day. Many things only take 15 minutes once you are there and it always looks good on the final invoice to list something as "no charge"
13) Most jobs have something you don't factor in when bidding that slows you down. Put a bit of fluff in each bid to allow for it.
14) Advertise. Yellow pages are expensive, but a MUST. Even after many years in business with a good reputation, lots of repeat clients, and referrals, many people will find you in the yellow pages.
I could go on and on... but my main point is the equipment has to be decent, but it is a tiny part of what will make you successful. All the people skills and business stuff if WAY more important.
 
OP
OP
J

jeffb

Member
Joined
May 31, 2010
Messages
24
If only one machine, I'd go with a wheeled unit. Much more versatile, much cheaper to operate. Also, a tracked unit, in my opinion, need to be bought new or near-new. Many, many people never check/change the case drain filters and the hub oil, and that can become a $10,000 lesson. You can rent a tracked machine for under $200 a day on the rare occasions you need it. That being said, I own 3 wheeled units and a T-190 currently, and a tracked machine is the BEST for grading, but you must stay on dirt 99% of the time or you will eat up the tracks. I rented tracked machines as needed for several years before my business grew to the place that I could keep one busy every single day, and then I bought. Some advise about the business side:
1) No money in just pushing dirt around--anyone can rent a machine and do that.
2) No money in subcontracting for others like homebuilders, concrete companies, etc--they want to pay you wholesale prices and give you the stuff that is too difficult and costly for them to do themselves, and they take forever to pay.
3)Not much work is available working by the hour--the rates you need to charge to earn a good living, and pay the help, and pay the excavator's insurance, workman's comp, machinery expenses, truck expenses, etc, will seem to high for most people's likes.
4) Become a problem-solver, and work exclusively by bid. If you fix a client's damp basement, repair their driveway, beautify their outdoor living space, etc, then you are improving their quality of life, and that pays a whole lot better than pushing dirt around for "x" dollars an hour. Of course to do this you must be GREAT at what you do.
5) I just said you had to do exceptional work, which is for the most part very true. But in many markets, there are LOTS of firms doing great work, so you need to set yourself apart from them: return every call promptly; always do as you promise; go bid a job within 24-48 hrs of the initial contact--the early bird DOES get the worm;
6) have shiny equipment--not new, but washed up/painted up looking neat--you can't charge premium prices with a poor image. I have 10-year-old trucks and machines with lots of miles/hours that, if you weren't familiar with the various model changes, could pass as new;
7) leave the jobsite SPOTLESS; plywood lawns, don't tear them up; keep the client in the loop if things have to deviate from the plan;
8) EAT your mistakes, and correct them no matter the cost; guarantee all work always; be honest and walk away from something over your abilities;
9) learn to judge people from your initial contact, and occasionally turn down the chance to bid if your gut tells you they will be impossible to please--a select few people are;
10) NEVER "haggle down" on your bid--that will get around and you will end up dickering and working for less all the time--even if you later regret your bid (wish you had been lower), stick to it and learn from it;
11) get paid for change orders at a rate HIGHER than your normal rate, as it screws up your schedule and makes you late to the next job--so don't do it unless you get well-paid for it--usually I just tell them I don't have time for changes but would bid the additional work and come back. CHANGE ORDERS HAVE TO BE BIG MONEY TO BE WORTH THE HASSLE ASSUMING YOU ARE BUSY.
12) Throw a little something in for free, something that will make the customer's day. Many things only take 15 minutes once you are there and it always looks good on the final invoice to list something as "no charge"
13) Most jobs have something you don't factor in when bidding that slows you down. Put a bit of fluff in each bid to allow for it.
14) Advertise. Yellow pages are expensive, but a MUST. Even after many years in business with a good reputation, lots of repeat clients, and referrals, many people will find you in the yellow pages.
I could go on and on... but my main point is the equipment has to be decent, but it is a tiny part of what will make you successful. All the people skills and business stuff if WAY more important.
thanks iowa dave for the good info. your suggestion for contracting work was something i never thought of. it seems most people just charge by the hour with a 3 hour minimum. i definitely need to rethink how and what work i need to consider. i think a wheeled machine might be better as you say, maybe later on add a tracked machine.what is a good route for financing, will banks even consider it, or is there another way? let me ask this also, what would be 2 or 3 attachments to start off with? i'm thinking of grapple bucket and brush mower along with the usual 6' bucket. thanks for all the helpful info. im going to look at a 773 on friday that sounds like a good deal. i will let you know how it goes.
 

Tazza

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Dec 7, 2004
Messages
16,829
thanks iowa dave for the good info. your suggestion for contracting work was something i never thought of. it seems most people just charge by the hour with a 3 hour minimum. i definitely need to rethink how and what work i need to consider. i think a wheeled machine might be better as you say, maybe later on add a tracked machine.what is a good route for financing, will banks even consider it, or is there another way? let me ask this also, what would be 2 or 3 attachments to start off with? i'm thinking of grapple bucket and brush mower along with the usual 6' bucket. thanks for all the helpful info. im going to look at a 773 on friday that sounds like a good deal. i will let you know how it goes.
Its a hard one, you may even consider an excivator attachment too. It gives you a little more that you will be able to do. It also depends on if you want to buy a dedicated machine for that, if so, don't bother with the attachment.
 

Iowa Dave

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 20, 2008
Messages
121
thanks iowa dave for the good info. your suggestion for contracting work was something i never thought of. it seems most people just charge by the hour with a 3 hour minimum. i definitely need to rethink how and what work i need to consider. i think a wheeled machine might be better as you say, maybe later on add a tracked machine.what is a good route for financing, will banks even consider it, or is there another way? let me ask this also, what would be 2 or 3 attachments to start off with? i'm thinking of grapple bucket and brush mower along with the usual 6' bucket. thanks for all the helpful info. im going to look at a 773 on friday that sounds like a good deal. i will let you know how it goes.
Unsure on the financing, I paid cash and started slow, had another venue for living expenses, and spent all profit on more and better equipment, so have never borrowed for equipment. If I was a banker, I wouldn't loan $$ unless borrower had years of experience doing this (probably as an employee of a successful company). Sorry, just my opinion. Remember you can rent a machine and one attachment for around $325 a day, which is the way to go to see if this venture will work. Once you have successfully done several nice jobs--maybe $15-20,000 worth, then use that profit to buy a used machine. I have seen guys willing to work for $50/hr because their back is against the wall as they have a payment due. Typically those guys don't have the expertise or contacts to do the good-paying stuff anyway. "Consumer/homeowner" work pays the best by far. Of course you have to move all the time and spend a lot of time bidding, especially in the evenings as most people work during the day. I work in people's lawns for the most part. As far as attachments go, you can rent any of them. The first thing you need is a good laser--not a Lowes or Home Depot one, but a GOOD one. They keep getting cheaper, $1000 will buy a nice one now. In Iowa, we get 30-35 inches of rain annually, and sloping for water flow is my #1 most frequent request, and a laser is required.The 2 "must" attachments for me are a landplane and a soil conditioner. I use both almost daily leveling and readying for sod/seeding. I have NEVER been asked to mow brush, and anyone can do it, so I think the pay would be low. Have never even hooked on to a grapple bucket or a mower. I prefer to "fix people's problems"--using my head and experience to figure out a way to solve people's problems or improve their lifestyles--better $$ in that. Of course you must be good enough to do it right, and guarantee your work. This type of work requires laborers, but that also is a plus--we land many jobs BECAUSE of the hard work involved. Commercial work is "eat or get eaten"--by that I mean the players (your competition) will destroy you for the fun of it if they can. Many are honest and really efficient, but some are sharks with an inside track on the work and will just try to beat you up. A terrible way to get started, in my opinion. I have learned the hard way, and now do commercial work, but working in Mrs. Jone's backyard pays better and has a higher profit percentage if you can keep busy. It will take 100 projects a year to keep really busy.
 
OP
OP
J

jeffb

Member
Joined
May 31, 2010
Messages
24
Unsure on the financing, I paid cash and started slow, had another venue for living expenses, and spent all profit on more and better equipment, so have never borrowed for equipment. If I was a banker, I wouldn't loan $$ unless borrower had years of experience doing this (probably as an employee of a successful company). Sorry, just my opinion. Remember you can rent a machine and one attachment for around $325 a day, which is the way to go to see if this venture will work. Once you have successfully done several nice jobs--maybe $15-20,000 worth, then use that profit to buy a used machine. I have seen guys willing to work for $50/hr because their back is against the wall as they have a payment due. Typically those guys don't have the expertise or contacts to do the good-paying stuff anyway. "Consumer/homeowner" work pays the best by far. Of course you have to move all the time and spend a lot of time bidding, especially in the evenings as most people work during the day. I work in people's lawns for the most part. As far as attachments go, you can rent any of them. The first thing you need is a good laser--not a Lowes or Home Depot one, but a GOOD one. They keep getting cheaper, $1000 will buy a nice one now. In Iowa, we get 30-35 inches of rain annually, and sloping for water flow is my #1 most frequent request, and a laser is required.The 2 "must" attachments for me are a landplane and a soil conditioner. I use both almost daily leveling and readying for sod/seeding. I have NEVER been asked to mow brush, and anyone can do it, so I think the pay would be low. Have never even hooked on to a grapple bucket or a mower. I prefer to "fix people's problems"--using my head and experience to figure out a way to solve people's problems or improve their lifestyles--better $$ in that. Of course you must be good enough to do it right, and guarantee your work. This type of work requires laborers, but that also is a plus--we land many jobs BECAUSE of the hard work involved. Commercial work is "eat or get eaten"--by that I mean the players (your competition) will destroy you for the fun of it if they can. Many are honest and really efficient, but some are sharks with an inside track on the work and will just try to beat you up. A terrible way to get started, in my opinion. I have learned the hard way, and now do commercial work, but working in Mrs. Jone's backyard pays better and has a higher profit percentage if you can keep busy. It will take 100 projects a year to keep really busy.
wow. lots of good information, but like my daddy says hard work don't hurt nobody, but smart work puts money in the bank. i will be talking to some of the locals to see what the business is like here. there are a whole lot of trailers with zero turns on them. something different might be in order.
keep up the good work, i will be taking a close look at your other posts to get some more info. you sound like you really know the ins and outs. how big an operation do you have?
thanks
Jeff
 

ricco

New member
Joined
Feb 16, 2011
Messages
4
If only one machine, I'd go with a wheeled unit. Much more versatile, much cheaper to operate. Also, a tracked unit, in my opinion, need to be bought new or near-new. Many, many people never check/change the case drain filters and the hub oil, and that can become a $10,000 lesson. You can rent a tracked machine for under $200 a day on the rare occasions you need it. That being said, I own 3 wheeled units and a T-190 currently, and a tracked machine is the BEST for grading, but you must stay on dirt 99% of the time or you will eat up the tracks. I rented tracked machines as needed for several years before my business grew to the place that I could keep one busy every single day, and then I bought. Some advise about the business side:
1) No money in just pushing dirt around--anyone can rent a machine and do that.
2) No money in subcontracting for others like homebuilders, concrete companies, etc--they want to pay you wholesale prices and give you the stuff that is too difficult and costly for them to do themselves, and they take forever to pay.
3)Not much work is available working by the hour--the rates you need to charge to earn a good living, and pay the help, and pay the excavator's insurance, workman's comp, machinery expenses, truck expenses, etc, will seem to high for most people's likes.
4) Become a problem-solver, and work exclusively by bid. If you fix a client's damp basement, repair their driveway, beautify their outdoor living space, etc, then you are improving their quality of life, and that pays a whole lot better than pushing dirt around for "x" dollars an hour. Of course to do this you must be GREAT at what you do.
5) I just said you had to do exceptional work, which is for the most part very true. But in many markets, there are LOTS of firms doing great work, so you need to set yourself apart from them: return every call promptly; always do as you promise; go bid a job within 24-48 hrs of the initial contact--the early bird DOES get the worm;
6) have shiny equipment--not new, but washed up/painted up looking neat--you can't charge premium prices with a poor image. I have 10-year-old trucks and machines with lots of miles/hours that, if you weren't familiar with the various model changes, could pass as new;
7) leave the jobsite SPOTLESS; plywood lawns, don't tear them up; keep the client in the loop if things have to deviate from the plan;
8) EAT your mistakes, and correct them no matter the cost; guarantee all work always; be honest and walk away from something over your abilities;
9) learn to judge people from your initial contact, and occasionally turn down the chance to bid if your gut tells you they will be impossible to please--a select few people are;
10) NEVER "haggle down" on your bid--that will get around and you will end up dickering and working for less all the time--even if you later regret your bid (wish you had been lower), stick to it and learn from it;
11) get paid for change orders at a rate HIGHER than your normal rate, as it screws up your schedule and makes you late to the next job--so don't do it unless you get well-paid for it--usually I just tell them I don't have time for changes but would bid the additional work and come back. CHANGE ORDERS HAVE TO BE BIG MONEY TO BE WORTH THE HASSLE ASSUMING YOU ARE BUSY.
12) Throw a little something in for free, something that will make the customer's day. Many things only take 15 minutes once you are there and it always looks good on the final invoice to list something as "no charge"
13) Most jobs have something you don't factor in when bidding that slows you down. Put a bit of fluff in each bid to allow for it.
14) Advertise. Yellow pages are expensive, but a MUST. Even after many years in business with a good reputation, lots of repeat clients, and referrals, many people will find you in the yellow pages.
I could go on and on... but my main point is the equipment has to be decent, but it is a tiny part of what will make you successful. All the people skills and business stuff if WAY more important.
I have been landscaping for 20 years i know it could not have been stated better than you have.
 

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