G series 863 hi flow, LONG crank, hard start

[snowsled]

I feel like I have tried everything. This machine started great last winter after I bought it. Now it cranks forever and needs ether to start 90% of the time. Runs great, runs all day just fine, shuts off fine too. New in the last few months is the fuel pick-up repair, new fuel pump, new shutoff solenoid, new battery, new fuses and relays. Cleaned ignition switch, fuse panel, many connections. Getting voltage at the glow plugs, pumping fuel out of the top of the filter like crazy when the bleeder is opened. Recently did a heavy dose of fuel system cleaner. Why wont this POS start for me?

 

[brdgbldr]

Have you checked that the glow plugs are actually working? Glow plugs do go bad.

 

[snowsled]

Have you checked that the glow plugs are actually working? Glow plugs do go bad.

The other symptom is that it is even harder to start hot. If I run it hard enough to kill it with the hydraulics I have a 20 minute cool down before it will start again at all, even with too much starting fluid. Just shutting it down and trying to re-start at idle is an effort in futility. I can ohm the plugs, I just don't think that is the problem. I was going to just replace them but at $75 each I will make sure they are bad first.

I also find it hard to believe I lost enough glow plugs in the last 20 hrs of operation that it used to start in the winter just fine, now in the summer it is much different. It isn't getting fuel. These do not have a standard rack fuel injection pump either. Just looking for ideas before I wholesale dismantle the fuel system, a system that works great except at start up.

 

[snowsled]

I went out and tested the glow plugs, all four in spec at 0.4 ohm, book spec is a minimum of 0.2 ohm. 12 + volts to the plug ends while the timer is running.

 

[waytwisted]

I have a 99 863

I went through hell with mine after I let it sit for 3 years without running

My issue was ultimately the unit injectors

Take them out. One by one and clean them

You can do them all at once but be mindful when you reinstall them into the rack

God speed to the fix!

 

[snowsled]

I have a 99 863

I went through hell with mine after I let it sit for 3 years without running

My issue was ultimately the unit injectors

Take them out. One by one and clean them

You can do them all at once but be mindful when you reinstall them into the rack

God speed to the fix!

So there are two distinct items, the injection pumps mounted in the block and the unit injectors up in the head. The shop manual show disassembly of the injectors but not the pumps. Just curious which you did because removing all of the injectors at once is no big deal but all of the pumps could be a different issue because of the timing. I was hoping to avoid removing injectors and rebuilding by using a heavy dose of fuel system cleaner. 1/2 tank in and no changes so likely injectors next. Thanks

 

[waytwisted]

I'm speaking of the unit injection pumps

My machine had issues with build up within the pumps .

The rack moved them but they wouldn't fuel past to injectors

if you didn't replace the entire fuel line from the elbow @ the tank( after replacing the grommet, pick up tube and strainer with check ball)

Make sure that 3 foot piece of hose is clear and damn sure you have the strainer and check valve.

before I started working on mine I drained and flushed the tank until zero contamination came out.

Mine has went through 5 in tank pick ups since new so there was all sorts of gunk and slime in my tank from the old factory pick up hoses completely melting into sludge in the tank

When I tell you I went through hell
I truly did and I couldn't find any information anywhere ( even with the factory service manual from bobcat)

I went from fuel straight up the system into the injectors.

Personally after I found the issues with the unit I pumps , I replaced the injectors and the unit injectors

The timing is by a metal shim under each unit injector

I measured mine compared to old. I was in spec so back to service it went

Just take your time and if you haven't changed the timing belt or don't know when
It was last do it

After that I decided to go ahead and change the head gasket since they are know to **** out as well at the worst time

When I get into my equipment I normally just go ahead and do preventive maintenance like in a freaking air plane if the hours are in the window of the sop and fubar

 

[snowsled]

There was nothing left of the old pick-up tube when I removed it and surely the old strainer is still in there. I installed the new one a few inches shorter so it wouldn't sit in the same place as the original. I did not flush the tank. I seem to get plenty of clean fuel to the pump and through the filter though. What a pain in the ass. I should have stuck with a smaller Kubota powered machine. I like the capabilities, but I had a 753 for many years and it was largely trouble free as an occasional use machine. This one I work on it as much as I work with it. Seems like it loses its prime because once running, it is fine. I'll be damned if I can figure out where though. Also not excited about an engine out for all that maintenance but it would allow access to the tank. I guess I was hoping I didn't have to "restore" it with only 3300 hrs.

 

[haymaker]

I had a 743b once. A previous owner had put a hole in the bottom of the tank for flushing and used an expandable plug like in the drain hole in a boat as a stopper.
I think someone sells a kit for adding a drain also.

 

[waytwisted]

The 863 has a plug in the tank under a protective plate.

If you ever remove it replace with a new one ( at least in
My case since Murphy loves messing with me)

One thing I did think of was the injectors leaking down.

One may have a wiener needle..

I will say once you get the pelting running they will never give issues.

Mine all come from a 3 year lawfare divorce that made me rearrange all the work I did so my unit sat in limbo for too long.

Don't let the pesky things get you feed up

Once the deutz is kept working they are a good engine.

Make sure if you remove all injectors you reinstall them clocked correctly ( I got in a hurry at 5 degrees outside last feb and let's just say I fogged the entire valley out from my haste)

 

[waytwisted]

I have been told also that water on @ the pintle from fuel can damage any injector if they freeze.

I will also say that a close friend bought some injectors from a Friday place for a reasonable price

I think
I would check that primer bulb for a leak down first

If you don't depend on it for money just press the bulb every time it's warm to crank it

Sorry I don't have better answers for you brother

God speed to the fix!

 

[snowsled]

If it is leaking down, it is not in the delivery as the filter purge squirts fuel immediately and trying to prime with the bulb has no effect. It is either the injection pumps or the injectors. Probably time to tear into them. I found a bad connection at the starter but fixing it hasn't solved the fuel problem.

I appreciate the input, it helps work through the diagnosis.

 

[waytwisted]

Any time just yell

I'm confident they're many many more qualified than me to speak on the deutz

Unfortunately I was always told if you don't know how to work in your equipment or trucks that I needed to find another line of work when I was a kid ( construction and land management)

I'm serious about those Friday place parts
My friend had zero issues and he also bought some from a place on the west coast

Just make sure if your going to keep it buy that funky safety torque bit and replace that timing belt

I played with fire with mine and nothing happens but for approx 100 dollars in parts and 50 in tools it's a good investment if your choose to keep that 863 which is a beast and priceless in my book
Kinda like one of the dodge cumins work trucks we still use.

Simple and reliable

 

[snowsled]

I pulled the pumps and injectors yesterday. I did not find an issues except some return lines in tough shape. I replaced all of those. Started it and I have a knock, I must not have seated on of the cam followers properly so I am pulling the pumps again this morning to fix that. Alternator mount was loose, fixed that tensioned the belt. Timing belt is on the list, head gasket may have been done since all of the muffler mount bolts on the pto side were missing. It has been off, but been a while too.

 

[snowsled]

So progress report... I broke pins on two injectors and bent up the rack. I bought a couple of new injectors, feed up the rack. So now I get a pretty immediate start up, which is a very pleasant change. Lots of black smoke though and it wont shut off with the key. It seems like a little counter clockwise on the pumps would reduce the fuel flow and possibly fix the shut off. Turning the key off slows but doesn't stop it. Doing some more research but I feel like I have made progress and at least I think I understand better how it works. Tips and trick welcome!

 

[7LBSSMALLIE]

I feel like I have tried everything. This machine started great last winter after I bought it. Now it cranks forever and needs ether to start 90% of the time. Runs great, runs all day just fine, shuts off fine too. New in the last few months is the fuel pick-up repair, new fuel pump, new shutoff solenoid, new battery, new fuses and relays. Cleaned ignition switch, fuse panel, many connections. Getting voltage at the glow plugs, pumping fuel out of the top of the filter like crazy when the bleeder is opened. Recently did a heavy dose of fuel system cleaner. Why wont this POS start for me?

 

[7LBSSMALLIE]

run a compression check. oiled cooled engines that burn quarts a week. build carbon, sticking rings.. heads gonna be gunked too. yea it sucks but if you the Wetherall, the Deutz . German engineering, you might get away with a tear down and cleaning. replace parts if avail. NO MORE ETHER>>

 

[snowsled]

run a compression check. oiled cooled engines that burn quarts a week. build carbon, sticking rings.. heads gonna be gunked too. yea it sucks but if you the Wetherall, the Deutz . German engineering, you might get away with a tear down and cleaning. replace parts if avail. NO MORE ETHER>>

When it runs, it runs fine. I will use ether to start it until it ******* explodes and replace the machine. I am not tearing this POS down, it was a $13k machine. Some help with my actual problem would have been nice....