Considering building skid loader-lots of questions

[metalmeltr]

I have recently began thinking about building a skid loader. I dont have any expiriance with these machines other than looking at them online, up close in person, seeing them on tv and thinking about how much I could use one. so here come the quetions How does a typical powered atachment coupler operate? How do comercial companies set up thier hydraulics? Number of pumps. What they operate. How is the drive system designed? more questions to come when i think of them

 

[soutthpaw]

I think you will save a lot of money by buying one used than trying to build from scratch as the individual parts would probably cost you 5 times what a used machine would run

 

[sledesigns]

I think you will save a lot of money by buying one used than trying to build from scratch as the individual parts would probably cost you 5 times what a used machine would run

Agreed, another builder friend suggested I build one how I wanted. I'd been doing research and answered with something like "10,000 lb machine used machine for $5000. Or, 10,000 lbs of steel delivered to the shop & dropped in a pile at $0.50 a pound (approx current rate) is the same $5000. Its gonna take allota machining to make that pile of steel do work" Hydro pumps, line, valves, etc cost a bit over $0.50 per pound.

 

[sledesigns]

Agreed, another builder friend suggested I build one how I wanted. I'd been doing research and answered with something like "10,000 lb machine used machine for $5000. Or, 10,000 lbs of steel delivered to the shop & dropped in a pile at $0.50 a pound (approx current rate) is the same $5000. Its gonna take allota machining to make that pile of steel do work" Hydro pumps, line, valves, etc cost a bit over $0.50 per pound.

This might help if you're a gearhead / mechanically inclined also, my skid searching process. Build or buy? cost vs time = Buy. New or used? 50k vs <10k = used. What brand? Cat, Deere, Bobcat, Mustang, etc? Bobcat has the best stock of parts for their older skidsteers. Bobcat invented the skidsteer. (thats cool to me) Brand = Bobcat. Next, what model? They've made 50+ models since the 1950's. From 500 lb capacity to 4000 lb. 36" width to 93" width. 14hp to 105hp. Long wheelbase & short. Radial lift & vertical. Next, the million dollar question, what model? The folks here can help you sort that out too. -Scott

 

[soutthpaw]

This might help if you're a gearhead / mechanically inclined also, my skid searching process. Build or buy? cost vs time = Buy. New or used? 50k vs <10k = used. What brand? Cat, Deere, Bobcat, Mustang, etc? Bobcat has the best stock of parts for their older skidsteers. Bobcat invented the skidsteer. (thats cool to me) Brand = Bobcat. Next, what model? They've made 50+ models since the 1950's. From 500 lb capacity to 4000 lb. 36" width to 93" width. 14hp to 105hp. Long wheelbase & short. Radial lift & vertical. Next, the million dollar question, what model? The folks here can help you sort that out too. -Scott

to recommend which machine you need to tell us how you plan to use it and your budget...

 

[Tazza]

to recommend which machine you need to tell us how you plan to use it and your budget...

People have built small skid steers before, but the cost.....
For starters, you will need a pump. Hydrostatic skid steers use 3 pumps, one is for the lift/tilt and the other 2 each control one drive motor. The Drive pumps are variable displacement piston pumps, fully reversible.
You will then need lift and tilt cylinders and an engine, you are FAR better off buying a used machine, even if it needs a little work.

 

[metalmeltr]

People have built small skid steers before, but the cost.....
For starters, you will need a pump. Hydrostatic skid steers use 3 pumps, one is for the lift/tilt and the other 2 each control one drive motor. The Drive pumps are variable displacement piston pumps, fully reversible.
You will then need lift and tilt cylinders and an engine, you are FAR better off buying a used machine, even if it needs a little work.

The loader would be used for many things Picking up and moving rocks, digging holes, pulling trucks, pulling trees, I would like to be able to lift a truck with it, general pupose lifting, boring holes ( auger), the list goes on but it is mostly general purpose work. I don't really know about the budget because i have been considering this as and idea and if this ever happens it wont be for a few years. I don't want to buy a used macine because i figure it would have to be complely striped down, then sandblasted, painted and then rebuilt. Even though i can do that and have the equipment to do it I see it as puting a lot of work into a piece of junk. The only actual parts that would be purchaced are hydralics, the engine, tires, and electrical. Most of everything else will be fabricated.

 

[Iowa Dave]

The loader would be used for many things Picking up and moving rocks, digging holes, pulling trucks, pulling trees, I would like to be able to lift a truck with it, general pupose lifting, boring holes ( auger), the list goes on but it is mostly general purpose work. I don't really know about the budget because i have been considering this as and idea and if this ever happens it wont be for a few years. I don't want to buy a used macine because i figure it would have to be complely striped down, then sandblasted, painted and then rebuilt. Even though i can do that and have the equipment to do it I see it as puting a lot of work into a piece of junk. The only actual parts that would be purchaced are hydralics, the engine, tires, and electrical. Most of everything else will be fabricated.

I know you are just "pipedreaming", so I won't actually say that the "piece of junk" would possibly be the home-made one, not the rebuilt machine others suggest that was originally designed and built by people who have built over 750,000 of them (no offense--just how can you-- as one guy-- top the experience of 750,000 loaders made?). I won't actually say that you are overconfident that you can build a better one than the folks mentioned above. I won't actually say that you will have HUNDREDS of hours in something that most likely won't ever get done. I won't actually say that you will spend several times more than you can buy one and fix it up for. I won't actually say that if it takes you years to build it that all that time you could have been USING, not building, a factory model. I won't actually say that the machine, if it got built, would have a market value near zero. I WILL say that I think it is a bad idea.....

 

[soutthpaw]

I know you are just "pipedreaming", so I won't actually say that the "piece of junk" would possibly be the home-made one, not the rebuilt machine others suggest that was originally designed and built by people who have built over 750,000 of them (no offense--just how can you-- as one guy-- top the experience of 750,000 loaders made?). I won't actually say that you are overconfident that you can build a better one than the folks mentioned above. I won't actually say that you will have HUNDREDS of hours in something that most likely won't ever get done. I won't actually say that you will spend several times more than you can buy one and fix it up for. I won't actually say that if it takes you years to build it that all that time you could have been USING, not building, a factory model. I won't actually say that the machine, if it got built, would have a market value near zero. I WILL say that I think it is a bad idea.....

hydralics--- 2 wheel drive motors, 1 hyd pump, fluid tank tons of custom made hydraulic lines, 3 or 4 hyd cylinders... at least $5000 if u are getting new as you seem to think that anything used is a piece of junk engine, probably 2-5 K for a new engine in the size you need for a skid steer tires $1000 in tires and rims electrical battery $100, misc wire, relays switches $500 you are over $10,000 which u can get a quality used machine for that no problem the only time I think this would be feasable is if you happened to have an old vermeer or similar trencher sitting around that u wanted to build a loader onto at its already a skidder.. Oh, wait that would be a used machine so its a piece of junk too. I gotta agree with the previous post on this one. Why would you want to lift a truck with a skid steer... hope u are not going to work under it lifted without using jackstands. esp considering the hydraulics are home made and more prone to a catastrophic failure than the engineering behind 750,000 commercially designed and built machines...

 

[sledesigns]

hydralics--- 2 wheel drive motors, 1 hyd pump, fluid tank tons of custom made hydraulic lines, 3 or 4 hyd cylinders... at least $5000 if u are getting new as you seem to think that anything used is a piece of junk engine, probably 2-5 K for a new engine in the size you need for a skid steer tires $1000 in tires and rims electrical battery $100, misc wire, relays switches $500 you are over $10,000 which u can get a quality used machine for that no problem the only time I think this would be feasable is if you happened to have an old vermeer or similar trencher sitting around that u wanted to build a loader onto at its already a skidder.. Oh, wait that would be a used machine so its a piece of junk too. I gotta agree with the previous post on this one. Why would you want to lift a truck with a skid steer... hope u are not going to work under it lifted without using jackstands. esp considering the hydraulics are home made and more prone to a catastrophic failure than the engineering behind 750,000 commercially designed and built machines...

Your building of a skidloader project is do-able and in fact has been done by a small shop with minimal fab equipment. Some of the highlights: They made a simple one just to run a bucket & be nimble turning (skid steering) They later added down pressure, as before just a single acting arm lift. This put more strain on the loader and it broke drive train components. After the drive was beefed up, their loader with down pressure (as they are now) could dig into hard virgin dirt and work off of the concrete it was on before. Now offroad, the dirt stirred up would get onto the exposed drive chains leading to early failure. The fix was a new design sealing up the drive chains and running them in an oil bath. This is a summary of the first 10 years of a neat story of Cyril & Louis Keller in the late 1950's early 60's. If you are a fabricator (as it sounds) and want some leisurely reading on an interesting subject "Bobcat: Fifty Years of Opportunity" by Marty Padgett. Its not the most fluently written book as it skips around, but more documentary. As inspiring as some of the restored and hybrid machines of the members here. Good Luck -Scott

 

[Tazza]

Your building of a skidloader project is do-able and in fact has been done by a small shop with minimal fab equipment. Some of the highlights: They made a simple one just to run a bucket & be nimble turning (skid steering) They later added down pressure, as before just a single acting arm lift. This put more strain on the loader and it broke drive train components. After the drive was beefed up, their loader with down pressure (as they are now) could dig into hard virgin dirt and work off of the concrete it was on before. Now offroad, the dirt stirred up would get onto the exposed drive chains leading to early failure. The fix was a new design sealing up the drive chains and running them in an oil bath. This is a summary of the first 10 years of a neat story of Cyril & Louis Keller in the late 1950's early 60's. If you are a fabricator (as it sounds) and want some leisurely reading on an interesting subject "Bobcat: Fifty Years of Opportunity" by Marty Padgett. Its not the most fluently written book as it skips around, but more documentary. As inspiring as some of the restored and hybrid machines of the members here. Good Luck -Scott

I totally understand both sides of this. The fun of building a machine and being able to say yeah, i built that! but for larger scape you will need to do a lot of maths to work out pivot points, lifting power, counter balance so you don't tip the machine while trying to lift trucks. It would be a great project if you had unlimited funds, never expect to get your money back though. They hydraulics will really run you, the earlier estimate of 5k i believe would be even more than that. There are so many small things, axles, chains, sprockets, bearings, sub shaft for the drive motor, you can't pul all that load on the motor shaft.
If you were going to spend that much time building, why not re-build say an 853 or 863? They are beasts of machines, pretty simple in design but built really tough. I have fully re-built a 743, it didn't take that long. About 4 weeks from pulling it down to having it back together and running like new. You would be surprised at how simple they are to strip, clean, paint and re-assemble while repairing needed parts along the way.
No matter what way you go, i'm sure i speak for most of us here, i want to see pictures!
There is another forum dedicated to builds like this, send me an e-mail and i'll give you a link taz38sup at yahoo.com.au at = @, naturally.

 

[jeffco]

I totally understand both sides of this. The fun of building a machine and being able to say yeah, i built that! but for larger scape you will need to do a lot of maths to work out pivot points, lifting power, counter balance so you don't tip the machine while trying to lift trucks. It would be a great project if you had unlimited funds, never expect to get your money back though. They hydraulics will really run you, the earlier estimate of 5k i believe would be even more than that. There are so many small things, axles, chains, sprockets, bearings, sub shaft for the drive motor, you can't pul all that load on the motor shaft.
If you were going to spend that much time building, why not re-build say an 853 or 863? They are beasts of machines, pretty simple in design but built really tough. I have fully re-built a 743, it didn't take that long. About 4 weeks from pulling it down to having it back together and running like new. You would be surprised at how simple they are to strip, clean, paint and re-assemble while repairing needed parts along the way.
No matter what way you go, i'm sure i speak for most of us here, i want to see pictures!
There is another forum dedicated to builds like this, send me an e-mail and i'll give you a link taz38sup at yahoo.com.au at = @, naturally.

Over the course of 30 years I have seen alot of projects built and most are parked behind the barn as a testament of fun but also of a failure of one or more systems. I think I am the ultimate optimist, a good welder, with above average engineering skills and good fabrication skills and a nicely equipped shop. Had I decided to build a skid steer I would have totally missed the boat. Everytime I get involved with a system on my old school 825 Bobcat I am amazed at the heavy duty construction. Each system in and of its self is not totally bulldozer quality heavy duty but the way they all work together forms a product that in my estimation would be very hard to improve on to increase reliability. We all agree that any machine that is not reliable isn't worth a plug nickel. I think if I needed more than the 1500 pounds of lift capacity my machine has, I would have to address the stress cracks and blown/leaking cylinders and hoses and continual repairs that happen when limits are exceeded repeatedly. I choose to buy an older 825 in decent shape and then rebuild each system and learn the machine. I know I could not possibly pull off building my own after seeing how Bobcat does it, they have just dialed in the combination through the years to a point where it's about as good as it gets. I'm not saying they don't have failures but the ratio of poor design problems has to be pretty few. Any way I suggest buying a unit of your choice, stripping it down and spend your money rebuilding and improving where you can. I think your chances of being happy with the outcome will be 100 percent better than building one from scratch but bear in mind, this is my opinion and I an in no way attempting to belittle your suggestions or decisions so good luck which ever way you go. Remember resale of Bobcats is always good, the better the shape the more money, still hard to buy a diesel machine 30 years old for under 5 grand, a home built, you may never get any of your investment back, just a thought. jeffco

 

[metalmeltr]

Over the course of 30 years I have seen alot of projects built and most are parked behind the barn as a testament of fun but also of a failure of one or more systems. I think I am the ultimate optimist, a good welder, with above average engineering skills and good fabrication skills and a nicely equipped shop. Had I decided to build a skid steer I would have totally missed the boat. Everytime I get involved with a system on my old school 825 Bobcat I am amazed at the heavy duty construction. Each system in and of its self is not totally bulldozer quality heavy duty but the way they all work together forms a product that in my estimation would be very hard to improve on to increase reliability. We all agree that any machine that is not reliable isn't worth a plug nickel. I think if I needed more than the 1500 pounds of lift capacity my machine has, I would have to address the stress cracks and blown/leaking cylinders and hoses and continual repairs that happen when limits are exceeded repeatedly. I choose to buy an older 825 in decent shape and then rebuild each system and learn the machine. I know I could not possibly pull off building my own after seeing how Bobcat does it, they have just dialed in the combination through the years to a point where it's about as good as it gets. I'm not saying they don't have failures but the ratio of poor design problems has to be pretty few. Any way I suggest buying a unit of your choice, stripping it down and spend your money rebuilding and improving where you can. I think your chances of being happy with the outcome will be 100 percent better than building one from scratch but bear in mind, this is my opinion and I an in no way attempting to belittle your suggestions or decisions so good luck which ever way you go. Remember resale of Bobcats is always good, the better the shape the more money, still hard to buy a diesel machine 30 years old for under 5 grand, a home built, you may never get any of your investment back, just a thought. jeffco

The reason that I want to be able to lift a truck is to put it on a trailer. Not to work on it. This would be in the case of taking old junkers that don't run to the junkyard. One main reason i want to do this is because of parts. If I use off the shelf generic hydraulic motors, pmps and cylinders. It wil be cheeper than using parts from bobcat, john deer, case, or new holland and so on. Also if I were to bend a loader arm (very unlikly) I could just fabricate a new one. As far as geting my investment back that is not an isue because if it comes to a point where i want to get rid of it I will strip it of any thing usable for some thing else and scrap the chasiss.

 

[Iowa Dave]

The reason that I want to be able to lift a truck is to put it on a trailer. Not to work on it. This would be in the case of taking old junkers that don't run to the junkyard. One main reason i want to do this is because of parts. If I use off the shelf generic hydraulic motors, pmps and cylinders. It wil be cheeper than using parts from bobcat, john deer, case, or new holland and so on. Also if I were to bend a loader arm (very unlikly) I could just fabricate a new one. As far as geting my investment back that is not an isue because if it comes to a point where i want to get rid of it I will strip it of any thing usable for some thing else and scrap the chasiss.

If you want to be able to lift a truck, buy an old payloader/endloader. That IS NOT an application for a skidloader. It would be a case of using the wrong "tool" for the job. Dangerous as well. I can see you are one of those guys who asks for advise, and then when everyone tells you NOT to do something, you will anyway, so go for it. My bet it that it doesn't get built anyway. But, the world needs people who go against all odds and create something that everyone says can't be done. That is how new and better things come about. But in this case, even if you succeeded, you will NOT have created anything new and revolutionary--there are MILLIONS of skids in the world already. I wish you the best. Get your checkbook out, you will need it.

 

[skidsteer.ca]

If you want to be able to lift a truck, buy an old payloader/endloader. That IS NOT an application for a skidloader. It would be a case of using the wrong "tool" for the job. Dangerous as well. I can see you are one of those guys who asks for advise, and then when everyone tells you NOT to do something, you will anyway, so go for it. My bet it that it doesn't get built anyway. But, the world needs people who go against all odds and create something that everyone says can't be done. That is how new and better things come about. But in this case, even if you succeeded, you will NOT have created anything new and revolutionary--there are MILLIONS of skids in the world already. I wish you the best. Get your checkbook out, you will need it.

The problem with lifting vehicles with a skid is the center of gravity of the load is too far in front of the loader.

My pallet forks have a rating chart and a 7753 had a 1700 lb rated lift with a bucket, but with the forks the rated lift is down to 1120 lbs with the cog of the load just 24” forward of the quick attach. It would take a huge (or should I say long framed) skid to balance lifting a 5000 lb pickup with the cog at @ 42”
To make a skidsteer turn there is a balance issue going on too. When they are unloaded the front end needs very little weight on it so it slides easily and when loaded the rear is light and becomes the one that slides around. So placing your components in the right location in the frame to achieve this balance won't be easy.
What you talking about is a huge undertaking, though I'd love to see one too, I think it will be difficult to succeed in terms of reliability and versatility (regardless of budget) that most skidsteer manufacturers have achieved.
Ken

 

[metalmeltr]

The problem with lifting vehicles with a skid is the center of gravity of the load is too far in front of the loader.

My pallet forks have a rating chart and a 7753 had a 1700 lb rated lift with a bucket, but with the forks the rated lift is down to 1120 lbs with the cog of the load just 24” forward of the quick attach. It would take a huge (or should I say long framed) skid to balance lifting a 5000 lb pickup with the cog at @ 42”
To make a skidsteer turn there is a balance issue going on too. When they are unloaded the front end needs very little weight on it so it slides easily and when loaded the rear is light and becomes the one that slides around. So placing your components in the right location in the frame to achieve this balance won't be easy.
What you talking about is a huge undertaking, though I'd love to see one too, I think it will be difficult to succeed in terms of reliability and versatility (regardless of budget) that most skidsteer manufacturers have achieved.
Ken

well you guys have given me alot to thinkl about,. Thanks for informing me that it would be dangerous to lift a truck with a skid loader.

 

[sledesigns]

well you guys have given me alot to thinkl about,. Thanks for informing me that it would be dangerous to lift a truck with a skid loader.

I was also interested in capacity on a Bobcat for lifting machinery and did research on it. A 974, 975, 1074 or 1075 might do the trick with a 3700 lb rated & 7400 tipping load. They weigh about 12,000 lbs. The largest Bobcats, the 980 or 1080, weighing in at about 15,000 lbs, could likely lift automobiles or be made too. Their cap is 4000 or 8000 tipping. Id assume that if the 980 or 1080 were ballasted a bit in the rear so unloaded the front was light, the mass of the machine should balance out a truck type load. The 80 series has behemoth planetary axles and should handle being loaded well. They are rather huge but may work for you if you dont need into tight places. -Scott

 

[Tazza]

I was also interested in capacity on a Bobcat for lifting machinery and did research on it. A 974, 975, 1074 or 1075 might do the trick with a 3700 lb rated & 7400 tipping load. They weigh about 12,000 lbs. The largest Bobcats, the 980 or 1080, weighing in at about 15,000 lbs, could likely lift automobiles or be made too. Their cap is 4000 or 8000 tipping. Id assume that if the 980 or 1080 were ballasted a bit in the rear so unloaded the front was light, the mass of the machine should balance out a truck type load. The 80 series has behemoth planetary axles and should handle being loaded well. They are rather huge but may work for you if you dont need into tight places. -Scott

The motors and pumps on Bobcats are actually generic. My 753 and 763 both run Eaton drive motors and a sauer sunstrand hydrostatic and a danfos hydraulic pump. My 743 runs a vickers pump and eaton drive motors, these are not dealer only parts. Same with the engine, there are parts that are dealer only, but the *main* parts are generic. The only main part that is, would be the control block, Bobcat get these built.
Good luck with your project.

 

[metalmeltr]

The motors and pumps on Bobcats are actually generic. My 753 and 763 both run Eaton drive motors and a sauer sunstrand hydrostatic and a danfos hydraulic pump. My 743 runs a vickers pump and eaton drive motors, these are not dealer only parts. Same with the engine, there are parts that are dealer only, but the *main* parts are generic. The only main part that is, would be the control block, Bobcat get these built.
Good luck with your project.

My origonal thought to control the loader was going to be the use of two individual valves, but in the Surplus Center catatlog I found an actual joystick loader valve. Are there foot pedal valves avalibe that could control a hydralic motor?