BICS lit, won't move

[PronouncedDeertay]

863 F, new to me and I'm new to bobcats Was driving it around with the grapple on, and got out of the cab/raised the seat bar. After that all the BICS lights are on, but the wheels feel like the e-brake is on. It wont move more than a couple inches. I've turned the aux hydraulics on and off, looked for help in the little user guide in the cab, engaged/disengaged the e-brake (it makes a click when I disengage). Hydraulics work as normal. What am I missing? I don't have the manual, any reputable place will get my business if you can point me there.

 

[Tazza]

You said you can hear the brake clunk, with that noise it should move...
I wonder if the wedge for the brake has broken or fallen off the solenoid, locking the brake in place.
If you remove the brake solenoid, there will be a round plunger. If you pull it up, you should feel something on the end, this is the wedge. If there is nothing there, it has fallen off locking the wheels up.

 

[PronouncedDeertay]

You said you can hear the brake clunk, with that noise it should move...
I wonder if the wedge for the brake has broken or fallen off the solenoid, locking the brake in place.
If you remove the brake solenoid, there will be a round plunger. If you pull it up, you should feel something on the end, this is the wedge. If there is nothing there, it has fallen off locking the wheels up.

Tazza thanks for the response. It was making the "thunk" noise this morning, then had to do it the toggle a few times to disengage. I thought it was because I was parked on a hill, but even with the machine held in place w/ chocks it does not disengage at this point. The fact the BICS are all showing good seems like something is broken off. Now I am not hearing the thunk. Seems like pull/examine the solenoid to start. That begs the question of the manual, I'm handy but not educated. OK I'm not sure I make handy on here, but I'm not completely worthless. But I have no idea where the solenoid is located

 

[bobbie-g]

Tazza thanks for the response. It was making the "thunk" noise this morning, then had to do it the toggle a few times to disengage. I thought it was because I was parked on a hill, but even with the machine held in place w/ chocks it does not disengage at this point. The fact the BICS are all showing good seems like something is broken off. Now I am not hearing the thunk. Seems like pull/examine the solenoid to start. That begs the question of the manual, I'm handy but not educated. OK I'm not sure I make handy on here, but I'm not completely worthless. But I have no idea where the solenoid is located

The klunk should be the brake solenoid being activated and pulling the wedge up and out of the locking wheel. If you have tension on the wheels of the machine, like trying to roll up/downhill, the solenoid is not strong enuf to disengage the lock. I have to gently move the machine (with engine running) an inch or two (a few cm, with due respect to Tazza) in the opposite direction to relieve the pressure on the locking mechanism to let it klunk up and disengage the "brake". It's not really a brake, it's just a wedge that drops down between some teeth on a cog. That affair is located between your feet. You'll find a 3/4" nut on either side of the cage, front, bottom. Take those two nuts off (and the shims just below them), then stand on the lift arm cross member or on the front of the main frame and pull upward on the two forward "handles" on the cage. It'll come up, and will incidentally crush anything you stowed just behind the rear window (fire extinguisher, can for the exhaust pipe, tow strap, lunch box). The two nuts are the only thing holding the cage down at the front (it's hinged at the rear), so it'll come up if you pull up on the handles. If it hasn't been up for years, the foam under the seat tends to stick to the rusty hydraulic lines and you have to get tough on pulling the cage upward. It'll come. Now, the brake solenoid is sticking up, on the centerline of the machine near the front of that area below the cage. Wires to the solenoid: I think one is the pull wire, one is the hold wire, and one is ground???? Can't remember. You can unbolt the plate the solenoid housing is mounted to, in order to get to the bottom of the solenoid and check the wedge as Tazza said. Worst case, I have pulled the solenoid up and used a hose clamp to hold it up while I moved the machine. Disables the brake safety feature, so don't do this near a cliff..... I found on one of my machines the foot switch became intermittent, and would not always let the solenoid actuate (10 years ago, the wiring print in my head is becoming fuzzy). Once I got the switch to work properly, I never used it again, not even once. It's redundant with the BICS command. ---Please reply back on the forum as to how it's going with this, so we all can learn more. And holler if you need more info. ---Bobbie-G

 

[7LBSSMALLIE]

The klunk should be the brake solenoid being activated and pulling the wedge up and out of the locking wheel. If you have tension on the wheels of the machine, like trying to roll up/downhill, the solenoid is not strong enuf to disengage the lock. I have to gently move the machine (with engine running) an inch or two (a few cm, with due respect to Tazza) in the opposite direction to relieve the pressure on the locking mechanism to let it klunk up and disengage the "brake". It's not really a brake, it's just a wedge that drops down between some teeth on a cog. That affair is located between your feet. You'll find a 3/4" nut on either side of the cage, front, bottom. Take those two nuts off (and the shims just below them), then stand on the lift arm cross member or on the front of the main frame and pull upward on the two forward "handles" on the cage. It'll come up, and will incidentally crush anything you stowed just behind the rear window (fire extinguisher, can for the exhaust pipe, tow strap, lunch box). The two nuts are the only thing holding the cage down at the front (it's hinged at the rear), so it'll come up if you pull up on the handles. If it hasn't been up for years, the foam under the seat tends to stick to the rusty hydraulic lines and you have to get tough on pulling the cage upward. It'll come. Now, the brake solenoid is sticking up, on the centerline of the machine near the front of that area below the cage. Wires to the solenoid: I think one is the pull wire, one is the hold wire, and one is ground???? Can't remember. You can unbolt the plate the solenoid housing is mounted to, in order to get to the bottom of the solenoid and check the wedge as Tazza said. Worst case, I have pulled the solenoid up and used a hose clamp to hold it up while I moved the machine. Disables the brake safety feature, so don't do this near a cliff..... I found on one of my machines the foot switch became intermittent, and would not always let the solenoid actuate (10 years ago, the wiring print in my head is becoming fuzzy). Once I got the switch to work properly, I never used it again, not even once. It's redundant with the BICS command. ---Please reply back on the forum as to how it's going with this, so we all can learn more. And holler if you need more info. ---Bobbie-G

go bobbie g, well thought out well spoken no one dies, you a member if not you should be

 

[PronouncedDeertay]

go bobbie g, well thought out well spoken no one dies, you a member if not you should be

Will do! This is my first machine other than a tractor, and I'm so excited to use it and tear some stuff up.... and then its parked in the drive! Thanks all for the input, I will lift the cab tomorrow. I was planning on doing it anyway, one of the air cylinders is shagged and I need to replace, so I have to wait for my buddy since it will be a redneck repair job. No beer involved though. This machine clearly has some capability, I know I will pay for it in maintenance and I knew there would be a learning curve. BUT, this is an awesome place to learn what I can, read a bunch of posts about this issue and what it could be, but always nice to have experts weigh in. Even if it's in kilos (tazza)!

 

[PronouncedDeertay]

Will do! This is my first machine other than a tractor, and I'm so excited to use it and tear some stuff up.... and then its parked in the drive! Thanks all for the input, I will lift the cab tomorrow. I was planning on doing it anyway, one of the air cylinders is shagged and I need to replace, so I have to wait for my buddy since it will be a redneck repair job. No beer involved though. This machine clearly has some capability, I know I will pay for it in maintenance and I knew there would be a learning curve. BUT, this is an awesome place to learn what I can, read a bunch of posts about this issue and what it could be, but always nice to have experts weigh in. Even if it's in kilos (tazza)!

So... lifted the cab, found a pool of hydro fluid from somewhere (yay!) that I have to track down (looks on first glance like the drive hydraulic but it is pretty slow/nonexistent with the machine in idle, so will require some ingunuity). Anyway, on the main issue, there are two rods connected to the foreward/rearward hand controls. They both have actuators lateral to them, and the one on the right did not complete the circuit when the rod moved aft. The other side audibly clicked. Wires to the solenoid look fine. Just on a whim we closed the cab, rolled it foreward to the limit where the solenoid stopped the motion, and chocked the wheels with a 1/2" (or roughly 1.27 cm) rollback. Then I could disengage the solenoid. This is not on a steep hill at all, maybe 5 degrees, but on pavement. The question is should I just change out the solenoid because I can't imagine they engineered it to seize in the locked position on a mild grade? Or just figure I need to have chocks available all the time if I disengage the seat bar on a hill? The part was about $30 and I just ordered one anyway so as to avoid delay, I took the week off to get stuff done. Drove it around moving brush for an hour, what fun!

 

[PronouncedDeertay]

So... lifted the cab, found a pool of hydro fluid from somewhere (yay!) that I have to track down (looks on first glance like the drive hydraulic but it is pretty slow/nonexistent with the machine in idle, so will require some ingunuity). Anyway, on the main issue, there are two rods connected to the foreward/rearward hand controls. They both have actuators lateral to them, and the one on the right did not complete the circuit when the rod moved aft. The other side audibly clicked. Wires to the solenoid look fine. Just on a whim we closed the cab, rolled it foreward to the limit where the solenoid stopped the motion, and chocked the wheels with a 1/2" (or roughly 1.27 cm) rollback. Then I could disengage the solenoid. This is not on a steep hill at all, maybe 5 degrees, but on pavement. The question is should I just change out the solenoid because I can't imagine they engineered it to seize in the locked position on a mild grade? Or just figure I need to have chocks available all the time if I disengage the seat bar on a hill? The part was about $30 and I just ordered one anyway so as to avoid delay, I took the week off to get stuff done. Drove it around moving brush for an hour, what fun!

I forgot to say, I moved the actuator toward the rod using the slots/screws, and it makes a click and appears to complete the circuit. Not sure if that could have caused some of the issue, and don't see how it would likely, but fixed it anyhow.

 

[bobbie-g]

I forgot to say, I moved the actuator toward the rod using the slots/screws, and it makes a click and appears to complete the circuit. Not sure if that could have caused some of the issue, and don't see how it would likely, but fixed it anyhow.

Hey, 7lbssmallie, tnx for the nice words! -- Well Sir Deertay, I'm having a bit of trouble following your explanations. You might be confusing the backup alarm micro switches with something that you think might actuate the solenoid. Could be we'd be ahead to just chat on the phone about this? Might be able to get you on the right track quickly. Look my profile up and shoot me an email; I'll send you back my phone number. ---Bobbie-G And we can post the result of your troubleshooting back here so everyone learns from it.

 

[PronouncedDeertay]

Hey, 7lbssmallie, tnx for the nice words! -- Well Sir Deertay, I'm having a bit of trouble following your explanations. You might be confusing the backup alarm micro switches with something that you think might actuate the solenoid. Could be we'd be ahead to just chat on the phone about this? Might be able to get you on the right track quickly. Look my profile up and shoot me an email; I'll send you back my phone number. ---Bobbie-G And we can post the result of your troubleshooting back here so everyone learns from it.

Wilco

 

[Tazza]

Wilco

I appreciate the use of the metric system for me
Looks like Bobby has been on top of this much better than I am. He has pointed out everything i had thought of. The switches on the linkages to the pump are just for the backup alarm, nothing to do with the brake. The brake will have 3 wires coming from it to a control module. They do go bad over time, so it could be the coil. You did say that some times you don't hear the clunk, so it could be why. I found that if i'm on a hill, the wedge is under load so when i hit the brake, there is a click but no CLUNK. That comes when i move up hill to unload the wedge, allowing it to pull up and out of the way.
I hope your oil leak will be easy to track down and repair. Get it clean, then the hunt begins.

 

[PronouncedDeertay]

I appreciate the use of the metric system for me
Looks like Bobby has been on top of this much better than I am. He has pointed out everything i had thought of. The switches on the linkages to the pump are just for the backup alarm, nothing to do with the brake. The brake will have 3 wires coming from it to a control module. They do go bad over time, so it could be the coil. You did say that some times you don't hear the clunk, so it could be why. I found that if i'm on a hill, the wedge is under load so when i hit the brake, there is a click but no CLUNK. That comes when i move up hill to unload the wedge, allowing it to pull up and out of the way.
I hope your oil leak will be easy to track down and repair. Get it clean, then the hunt begins.

Bobby squared me away on the backup alarm function. I haven't tracked it down yet, it's really cold! Bobby gave me a walkthrough on the BICS, and an algorithm. The solenoid I think is an issue with the continuous power, Bobby has related there is a starting withdraw current and a continuous current to keep it up. If the continuous is nonfunctional, would it be prone to opening and stopping the drive motion? Forgot to ask Bobby. If not then the continuous power is probably the issue, because per Bobby that should be enough to withdraw the solenoid when its not held in by friction on a slope. Moving the machine up the hill a tiny bit does not disengage, I have to manually chock the wheels and go through a sequence to get the full withdraw current. Operating hypothesis is that there is some wear on the wedge making it too hard for the continuous current or it's not getting the steady current. On the BICS: Key on, power light is on. Butt in seat, no new lights. I have not done exhaustive wiggling to see if it is positional. Bar down, bar down light comes on. IF and only IF I hit the two buttons to essentially use in backhoe mode (traction and hydraulic), I get all lights and can operate the machine. This is how the guy I bought it from operated it. I took a picture of the bottom of the cab. There is a disconnected coupler which has what appears to be dielectric grease in it, wires which appear to run back and join the larger wire bundle that enters the back of the cab. I assume this supplies the BICS. This coupler would logically be place for the seat sensor. There is a bare bolt right next to the coupler. https://www.dropbox.com/s/6kes98q3kmyj8ft/seat%20harness.jpg?dl=0

 

[Tazza]

Bobby squared me away on the backup alarm function. I haven't tracked it down yet, it's really cold! Bobby gave me a walkthrough on the BICS, and an algorithm. The solenoid I think is an issue with the continuous power, Bobby has related there is a starting withdraw current and a continuous current to keep it up. If the continuous is nonfunctional, would it be prone to opening and stopping the drive motion? Forgot to ask Bobby. If not then the continuous power is probably the issue, because per Bobby that should be enough to withdraw the solenoid when its not held in by friction on a slope. Moving the machine up the hill a tiny bit does not disengage, I have to manually chock the wheels and go through a sequence to get the full withdraw current. Operating hypothesis is that there is some wear on the wedge making it too hard for the continuous current or it's not getting the steady current. On the BICS: Key on, power light is on. Butt in seat, no new lights. I have not done exhaustive wiggling to see if it is positional. Bar down, bar down light comes on. IF and only IF I hit the two buttons to essentially use in backhoe mode (traction and hydraulic), I get all lights and can operate the machine. This is how the guy I bought it from operated it. I took a picture of the bottom of the cab. There is a disconnected coupler which has what appears to be dielectric grease in it, wires which appear to run back and join the larger wire bundle that enters the back of the cab. I assume this supplies the BICS. This coupler would logically be place for the seat sensor. There is a bare bolt right next to the coupler. https://www.dropbox.com/s/6kes98q3kmyj8ft/seat%20harness.jpg?dl=0

There is a possibility that the lack of a seat sensor could be causing you issues. There should be a sender and a magnet attached to the rod coming down from the seat. I don't know if a push to operate kit has been installed in that machine or not, it disables the seat switch.
You can disable it by installing the sensor and using a magnet till it activates the sensor, then gluing it in place. As you have a seat bar sensor, it is still safe, Bobcat did remove seat switches in later years due to rotting out seats or bumpy terrain turning the brake on.
Without the sensor in place, i thought it would refuse to move at all....

 

[PronouncedDeertay]

There is a possibility that the lack of a seat sensor could be causing you issues. There should be a sender and a magnet attached to the rod coming down from the seat. I don't know if a push to operate kit has been installed in that machine or not, it disables the seat switch.
You can disable it by installing the sensor and using a magnet till it activates the sensor, then gluing it in place. As you have a seat bar sensor, it is still safe, Bobcat did remove seat switches in later years due to rotting out seats or bumpy terrain turning the brake on.
Without the sensor in place, i thought it would refuse to move at all....

I haven't forgotten, just been out of town for a month. In the meantime, I located the leak, loader control valve seals are shot. I think the smart move is to replace all of them if I have to remove the unit, but Bobcat wants $45 for two o-rings and four spool seals. Complete robbery. I'm not normally one to pray on aftermarket parts but come on. I am going to install the new solenoid when I'm doing the other stuff. Will update. Thanks all on here for the help.

 

[Tazza]

I haven't forgotten, just been out of town for a month. In the meantime, I located the leak, loader control valve seals are shot. I think the smart move is to replace all of them if I have to remove the unit, but Bobcat wants $45 for two o-rings and four spool seals. Complete robbery. I'm not normally one to pray on aftermarket parts but come on. I am going to install the new solenoid when I'm doing the other stuff. Will update. Thanks all on here for the help.

It is robbery.... I got seals from my local hydraulic seal shop, they aren't always as good as they don't have every seal, but they generally do the job.
The control block doesn't have to come out, but sure makes it easier to, but getting it out is not fun at all.