The engine is how you say it is. The injectors are on the front side of the engine. How would you suggest i clean my injectors? Or should i just replace them? I will try the compression test and update. Thank you for all your help.
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Also, how do i test the relay for the glow plugs?
Easiest way to test the relay is a test light between ground and the rail that links them together in parallel.
I can't be sure the injectors are infact the problem, i test mine by removing them and attaching them to the pump and check the spray, as your engine sits the way it is, its not so easy. A diesel injection shop could check them for you. I have pulled them down in the past and freed up the nozzle and plunger with excellent results. I made sure i gave them a good clean up as well.
OldMachinist
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The black smoke is what made me think the intake was blocked. When you drained the fuel tank did you change the fuel filter as it would have been full of the same bad fuel?
Ok, an update. First thing is i found out that it is really a 453. I dont know if that makes a difference or not but the stickers were mostly gone and when i studied it for awhile i found that it is a 453 not a 463. Anyway, what i did today was check fuel pressure. What i found is i get very little fuel after the fuel transfer pump through the hose that connectors to the fuel injector pump.(these terms might be wrong so please correct me if they are). I disconnected the lines and cranked the engine over to check pressure. I would get better pressure by squeezing the fuel bulb than by cranking it over. I would also get very little pressure through the injector lines when i cranked it over. Some questions i would have are; what are the fuel pressure specs on a machine like this? And how much fuel should come out of the injection lines while im cranking it over? Lastly, is there an additive that i can add to the fuel to clean all the lines and injector pump? I am wondering if the plungers are getting sticky or stuck or something from sitting too long or is the best fix to just get a new pumps.Any ideas? Thanks for your time.
Old machinist, i did not change the fuel filter. I will do that this weekend but i just bypass the filter while running the test i did to see if that was the problem but the results were the same with or without the filter. I know i should just change the fuel filter because it is probably due for one anyway just because who knows how long it has been. The fuel i get from my tests that i ran looks really clean tho...
Am I remembering right that a 453/463 deisels kills with a kill cable and not a solinoid , could it be as simple as the cable housing be broken away from the mounting under the sheetmetal and when you push the kill knob in it doesn't move the cable on the other end to shift the arm on the governor to the run position
Pressure to the pump should only be a few PSI
Pressure at the delivery nozzles is 2-3,000 PSI, there only looks like a water droplet every time you get an injection cycle. It doesn't take much fuel when its in a fine mist to do the job.
I'm still thinking you may have sticky injectors, these can cause the fuel to just drip into the cylinder and cause black smoke and destroy the piston over time. Or it can have an odd spray pattern that will cause black smoke and hard running.
See if you can check the compression, its the best place to start. No point changing injectors if your compression is way down.
The 453 i have uses an electric solenoids and not a pull cable.
OldMachinist
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Well since its a 453 I have the service manual and can upload any section you need but I agree that since it still won't start you need to check the compression. I suspect stuck piston rings from sitting so long. The manual says it should be 337-448 PSI with the engine at 200-300 RPM for 5-10 seconds with no more than 10% difference between cylinders.
Fishfiles, i think you are correct on the kill cable. There is a cable in the cab below and in front of the seat that runs back to a shift arm on the injector pump but it appears to be in working order. When i push/pull it the lever seems to have full range of motion. It says something like to bypass the lift lock valve and lower lift arms pull knob and activate arm control but there are two knobs and one runs to the injector pump and one (i think hydraulics but not sure.) Tazza, i think i will take off the injectors and try to clean them because i called the dealer and they are $130+ a piece for new ones and if they are fixable i would rather do that, and i will also check the compression at the same time. Old Machinist, i will let you know if i need anything from the manual. Where is a good place to get one? I should probably get one myself anyway at some point.
OldMachinist
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Do you have one pull knob or two? On the older 453's there was a kill knob and lift bypass but on the later ones just the bypass. As far as the manual I'd check dealer prices first sometimes there lower than Ebay or other sources.
I have two pull knobs. Ok, i will check the dealer.
Old Machinist, I have a question for you about my traction lock. Do have a page on your manual that would show me the wire diagram so i can chase the wires down for the code that came up? An electrician told me that if i can follow the wires i should be able to find exposed or broken wires that i would have to fix and im thinking i would just rewire from my BICS to the traction lock solenoid(is that what it is?) if that is possible. Also, i found two exposed wires 2" from the plug for my main wire harness to my BICS that got sun rotted and im wondering if i should or could get a new plug or do you have to get a whole new wiring harness. Anyway, just let me know if you have anything i could use as a map so to speak from the manual or if i knew where the traction lock solenoid was that would be helpful too. Thanks
OldMachinist
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I uploaded the wiring legend and diagram here.
http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg49/calfranch/Bobcat/Wiring_diagram.jpg
http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg49/calfranch/Bobcat/Wiring_legend.jpg
A picture of the solenoid is on page 4-4 of the chaincase service manual I uploaded here for another 453 owner.
http://www.mediafire.com/?yt9a3zxzyin
All this information is from my service manual that covers serial #515011001 and above and serial #515111001 and above. If your serial # doen't fall is this range I don't know if this info will match.
Thank you for this old machinist. My serial number is 561811021 so i think it falls into that range. Thanks for everything.
Tazza, whats the best way to clean the injectors? Take them out and then what? Thanx
OldMachinist
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Here's a couple of pages from service manual on the injectors.
http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg49/calfranch/Bobcat/Injectors_1.jpg
http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg49/calfranch/Bobcat/Injectors_2.jpg
This is what i do, if its rite or not i don't know, its your choice i don't want to get in trouble for telling you to do something that causes any damage.
With that out of the way:
I pull the injectors out (naturally) hold them rite way up in a vise and remove the nut at the top of the body. This will allow you to disassemble the injector. Ensure you keep ALL the parts from each injector separate!!! Remove all the pieces and sit them in a plastic container. You will get to the nozzle, this is the business end of the injector. There is a plunger that sits in the body, this must be free to move in and out. When an engine has been sitting for a while they can actually get stuck. If its tight use the vise to hold onto the pin at the base, be careful not to knock the tip as its very delicate and can be easily broken if knocked. With holding the base of the nozzle in the vise see if you can twist the outer part to get it free, if not you can use a screw driver to lever it up. When you get it out, use say WD40 and move it in and out till it feels smooth. Take all the parts out and clean with kero or WD40. Where the spring came out of the housing there will be a few flat spacers tucked away, when you are blowing the injectors out they may come loose, be careful not to loose them as they set the cracking pressure (when the injector opens up). I re-assemble using WD40, make sure the nozzle runs free and smooth in its housing. Pull all the parts back in the way way they came out. It should be good to go.
Hopefully you will find a stuck nozzle, if you do thats your answer to the problem.
Does that all make sense?
Thank you guys for your help. I am going to tackle this so hopefully. also, Tazza, i notice i had a bad wire going to my glow plugs so i rewired this as well and new fuel filter and all glow plugs heat up really nice when i took them out and ran them to a battery so hopefully im getting somewhere. also i got a compression tester but it doesnt have a good adapter for my bobcat so i might have to fab one up. is it best to thread it onto the injector port and crank it over and check each cylinder?
Well, an update. I spent the day making sure the fuel lines were clear and new fuel filter and good glow plugs. Then, i noticed on the page the Old Machinist had uploaded for me that i need a special socket to remove the injectors and i tried a wrench but i was worried that something would break because i put quite a bit of pressure on them and they wouldnt crack loose, and of course the bobcat dealer closes early and i couldnt get a socket from them. Then i got a compression tester and tried to find an adapter that would screw into the glow plug holes and failed miserably on that. So anyway, i will have to try next week to get the injectors off and test them and also see if the bobcat dealer has an adapter that i can screw into the glow plug hole or the injector hole to test compression. Thanks all for the help and i will update next week to let you know how i do on the compression test and getting the injectors cleaned. If you have any thoughts for me on either of these feel free to let me know. Thanks again
