T190 Weak Lift Power

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JimH

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Joined
Jun 6, 2022
Messages
17
I bought a T190 with about 1300 hrs. and Joystick controls. Everything works great except that when I use my tree puller it exerts a lot of lift, but not enough lift to pull the back of the tracks up off the ground, even without the counterweights. The previous owner says he didn't notice this issue and that it would lift enough to lift the back up.
-The hydraulic fluid is full, but is due for changing.
-There are no leaks.
-Lift and tilt respond quickly.
-I get 3300 PSI when measured at the auxiliary hydraulic connector.
-Hydrostatic drives seem strong.
-When I leave the bucket up off the ground with the engine off, it drops only about 3/4 inch per hour, even with an extra 350 lbs. in the bucket.
So, I appreciate any ideas on what is limiting the lift capacity?
 

JimH

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Joined
Jun 6, 2022
Messages
17
I studied the hydraulic flow diagram in the repair manual to see what might be the issue. Now I'm wondering if it is a faulty anti-cavitation valve in the hydraulic control? Do these go bad? Has anyone else had similar issues?
 

JimH

Member
Joined
Jun 6, 2022
Messages
17
I bought a T190 with about 1300 hrs. and Joystick controls. Everything works great except that when I use my tree puller it exerts a lot of lift, but not enough lift to pull the back of the tracks up off the ground, even without the counterweights. The previous owner says he didn't notice this issue and that it would lift enough to lift the back up.
-The hydraulic fluid is full, but is due for changing.
-There are no leaks.
-Lift and tilt respond quickly.
-I get 3300 PSI when measured at the auxiliary hydraulic connector.
-Hydrostatic drives seem strong.
-When I leave the bucket up off the ground with the engine off, it drops only about 3/4 inch per hour, even with an extra 350 lbs. in the bucket.
So, I appreciate any ideas on what is limiting the lift capacity?
So I'm thinking the main relief valve is good since the 3300 psi at the aux conn. Maybe it's a faulty anti-cavitation valve in the hydraulic control. I wonder if these can go bad?
 

JimH

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Joined
Jun 6, 2022
Messages
17
Ok, I checked the lift cylinders by running them all the way up and then, one at a time, removing the hydraulic connector, on the rod end of the cylinder, and then power them higher. No fluid came out the unconnected rod end, so I'm thinking the lift cylinders are not the problem.
 

JimH

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Joined
Jun 6, 2022
Messages
17
Lift Cylinders, good. Main relief valve, good. Hyd. Pump, good. Do the Port relief valves (6684645) go bad?
 

JimH

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Joined
Jun 6, 2022
Messages
17
Okay, I replaced the port relief valve for the lift spool. Still the bucket will not lift enough to pull the back of the bobcat up off the ground. I'm puzzled ??????
 

reaperman

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Dec 18, 2011
Messages
535
Its much harder to lift the back of a track machine off of the ground vs a wheel machine. In fact I'd be surprised if could ever lift the rear even with new.
 

JimH

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Jun 6, 2022
Messages
17
That's really good news, and I really appreciate your feedback. But, doesn't it beg the question about why so many have counter weights on the back? BTW I have taken the counter weights off of mine.
 

mrbb

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Joined
Jul 19, 2016
Messages
205
That's really good news, and I really appreciate your feedback. But, doesn't it beg the question about why so many have counter weights on the back? BTW I have taken the counter weights off of mine.
counter weights are on the back of a machine o off set when lifting or carrying a heavy lad up front in a bucket, pallet forks or likes to keep the front end of the machine from tipping forward!

they are Not back there to assist in lifting the rear off the ground,
as a fact there there to d just the opposite!
 

JimH

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Joined
Jun 6, 2022
Messages
17
counter weights are on the back of a machine o off set when lifting or carrying a heavy lad up front in a bucket, pallet forks or likes to keep the front end of the machine from tipping forward!

they are Not back there to assist in lifting the rear off the ground,
as a fact there there to d just the opposite!
Thanks for the reply. I am trying to determine if my T190, a tracked Bobcat, should have enough lift power such that, with too much weight in the bucket, it could raise the back of the Bobcat up off the ground. It currently does not have that amount of lift power.
 

mrbb

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 19, 2016
Messages
205
Thanks for the reply. I am trying to determine if my T190, a tracked Bobcat, should have enough lift power such that, with too much weight in the bucket, it could raise the back of the Bobcat up off the ground. It currently does not have that amount of lift power.
well if your wondering if your machine is down on power, why not try lifting what it was rated for and see if it can do so
if it does, it showing its doing what it was designed too
if it doesn;'t, then you also know

ALL machines have a rating for there lift ability!
have pallet forks, go to a scale, load something up to weight limits and lift away!

and again counter balance weights are there for added safety! and NOT all machines get them, many there add on's
as not everyone uses a machine the same way!
as an example,
if you work often on t on uneven ground, or a slight down ward slope and lift a max load up high and you can soon find out where the tipping point is , and having a dded counter weight can help here
its not a 100% deal, as even at below MAX weight , terrain and load, can TIP a machine , even with counter weights!
as again there a added level of safety, NOT a 100% prevention on tipping!
 

Fabricator

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Joined
Jan 11, 2008
Messages
106
should have enough lift power such that, with too much weight in the bucket, it could raise the back of the Bobcat up off the ground.

Not necessarily. Lift capacity is more than just stability. Think about lifting something with your own arms. There will be a point where whether you are strapped down or otherwise supported, your muscles just won't be able to lift any more weight. Same with hydraulics. The pressures involved to lift the weight are more than the pumps and cylinders are capable of and for safety, I'd tend to want that to happen before the machine starts tipping. As mentioned, a tracked machine adds stability and it's likely you reach the hydraulic capacity before an instability capacity on level stable ground.

As mentioned, the question would be whether the machine is able to lift its rated capacity. A T190 has an operating load of 1900#. Try to lift a known ton with it. The tree puller isn't a good indication of capacity because it is hard to determine the forces required to pull a specific tree depending on soil, tree species (type of roots), root condition, and other factors. You may have two trees that look pretty identical, but due to roots and soil they may require much different forces to pull them out.
 

JimH

Member
Joined
Jun 6, 2022
Messages
17
well if your wondering if your machine is down on power, why not try lifting what it was rated for and see if it can do so
if it does, it showing its doing what it was designed too
if it doesn;'t, then you also know

ALL machines have a rating for there lift ability!
have pallet forks, go to a scale, load something up to weight limits and lift away!

and again counter balance weights are there for added safety! and NOT all machines get them, many there add on's
as not everyone uses a machine the same way!
as an example,
if you work often on t on uneven ground, or a slight down ward slope and lift a max load up high and you can soon find out where the tipping point is , and having a dded counter weight can help here
its not a 100% deal, as even at below MAX weight , terrain and load, can TIP a machine , even with counter weights!
as again there a added level of safety, NOT a 100% prevention on tipping!
Thanks for the info. I don't have a way of moving my machine from my property or measuring out the weight of a load. But, I looked up the tipping load for my T190 and found it to be 5430 lbs,. This is indeed much higher than my S185 was, at 4076 lbs. So even though the operating loads are similar for these two machines, I should expect much more lift capacity from the tracked one, that is, much less tilting forward under load. I'm very grateful to those that responded. I guess I still wonder if others with T190's have found that they're really reluctant to tip forward from excessive load, when it's low and on level ground.
 

mrbb

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 19, 2016
Messages
205
just cause a machine has a higher tipping rating DOESN"T mean it should or will have a higher lift capacity!
over loading(lifting past its ratings) is a BAD thing to do , it can lead to damaging the machine from breaking parts, welds, and doing costly damage to a machine
they set ratings for a reason and its NOT all about tipping
its about what the parts used in the machine can HOLD before getting damaged!
YES odds are we all over do things at times, but it can always lead to a failure, doing so if were honest, and its NOT something you should be doing on a regular basis
if you need more carrying capacity, you should be using a larger machine that can handle that, other wise your a ticking clock on a failure and a repair bill!, or worse, getting hurt or someone around you!
and FYI<
a tracked machine typically is just more stable than a wheeled one, due to the amount of foot print/ ground contact it has! , by design and again, has nothing to do with what the machine can LIFT
lift ratings are based on what the cylinders, arms, hydraulics's , and materials in the frame and build, can handle,
not its tipping rating!
 

JimH

Member
Joined
Jun 6, 2022
Messages
17
OK. Thanks again mrbb, good info. Please recall, I am not trying to maximize lift, I am trying to determine if I have a problem with my machine. Given "reaperman's", advice and looking at the loader specs, perhaps I do not.
 
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