T180 vs 247B

[JTS]

Purchasing new. I am having trouble deciding between the T180 with joystick (SJC) controls and the 247B. I would appreciate any thoughts, either way, regarding controls, undercarriage, power, ride, comfort, etc. Many thanks.

 

[bobcat_ron]

I own a new 247B2 and I was considering a Bobcat T180, I should warn you however, the 247 is the exact physical size, length, width and height of a T180, but it is by no means a comparative machine to a T180, the 247 has the same oil flow (plus or minus) and has more hydraulic pressures and better fuel economy than the T180, but it is also 10 horsepower less. The only reason I bought my 247B2 is due to the fact that Bobcat's pilot controls (SJC) is not reliable with high vibration applications (WOT running across roads and driveways, jack hammer vibrations) and they are just too sensitive in certain situations.
I miss my 1900 pound ROC I had with the previous T190, the 247 only has 1400, but add more counter weights and you can get 1600 easily. On paper the lift heights and reach is about the same, but in the end, the 247B2 is bigger and better than the T140, but not as "big" as the T180, it's basically a good competitor for a Bobcat T150 in a sense.
The new undercarriage the ASV (now Terex) has is less costly than Cat originally thought, warnings we all heard about $14,000 repair bills after 1000 hours are just not true, you can replace the rollers that wear out with out replacing bearings and shafts. I will see 1000 hours out of my tracks and I'm sure the rollers will last longer if I rotate the inner rollers to the outside. The torsion axles make a huge difference not only in ride, but in contact with the ground, I wish every CTL name had them as an option.
Cat's hydraulic system is much better in cooling, a good example is using a jack hammer, the Cat takes about 2-3 hours of constant use to get the oil hot enough that touching the bare quick couplers is not a good idea, the Bobcat's take about 15 minutes, that's due to a very small tank, Cat's use an open circut system that dumps the oil back into the tank after passing through the radiator and filter. Cat's entire cooling system is 100% more efficient, they use a 70/30 split radiator, Bobcat uses a very small double stacked, and add the A/C option, and you now have 3 rads to keep clean. Cat's A/C system is entirely remote, the compressor pump is driven by an electric motor and the cooling condenser is behind the cab, cooled by 2 small fans, it's is always nice and chilly on our summer days, Bobcat uses an engine driven compressor and that robs 5 horsepower.
I could really go on and on about Cat, but I really need to get this point across, I am on the fence with the MTL undercarriages, I will not advocate them, and I will not bash them, I will always tell the straight truth about them in a neutral fashion. This is my second "tracked" loader I have owned and I came into this machine knowing the costs, but given the headaches I had with the 2 previous Bobcat's, I wanted a skid steer name I didn't have to worry about what was going to break down next.

 

[thetool]

I own a new 247B2 and I was considering a Bobcat T180, I should warn you however, the 247 is the exact physical size, length, width and height of a T180, but it is by no means a comparative machine to a T180, the 247 has the same oil flow (plus or minus) and has more hydraulic pressures and better fuel economy than the T180, but it is also 10 horsepower less. The only reason I bought my 247B2 is due to the fact that Bobcat's pilot controls (SJC) is not reliable with high vibration applications (WOT running across roads and driveways, jack hammer vibrations) and they are just too sensitive in certain situations.
I miss my 1900 pound ROC I had with the previous T190, the 247 only has 1400, but add more counter weights and you can get 1600 easily. On paper the lift heights and reach is about the same, but in the end, the 247B2 is bigger and better than the T140, but not as "big" as the T180, it's basically a good competitor for a Bobcat T150 in a sense.
The new undercarriage the ASV (now Terex) has is less costly than Cat originally thought, warnings we all heard about $14,000 repair bills after 1000 hours are just not true, you can replace the rollers that wear out with out replacing bearings and shafts. I will see 1000 hours out of my tracks and I'm sure the rollers will last longer if I rotate the inner rollers to the outside. The torsion axles make a huge difference not only in ride, but in contact with the ground, I wish every CTL name had them as an option.
Cat's hydraulic system is much better in cooling, a good example is using a jack hammer, the Cat takes about 2-3 hours of constant use to get the oil hot enough that touching the bare quick couplers is not a good idea, the Bobcat's take about 15 minutes, that's due to a very small tank, Cat's use an open circut system that dumps the oil back into the tank after passing through the radiator and filter. Cat's entire cooling system is 100% more efficient, they use a 70/30 split radiator, Bobcat uses a very small double stacked, and add the A/C option, and you now have 3 rads to keep clean. Cat's A/C system is entirely remote, the compressor pump is driven by an electric motor and the cooling condenser is behind the cab, cooled by 2 small fans, it's is always nice and chilly on our summer days, Bobcat uses an engine driven compressor and that robs 5 horsepower.
I could really go on and on about Cat, but I really need to get this point across, I am on the fence with the MTL undercarriages, I will not advocate them, and I will not bash them, I will always tell the straight truth about them in a neutral fashion. This is my second "tracked" loader I have owned and I came into this machine knowing the costs, but given the headaches I had with the 2 previous Bobcat's, I wanted a skid steer name I didn't have to worry about what was going to break down next.

I'm not an operator, but I know a lot of operators, so here's my $.02:
The T180 is an underpowered(non-turbo) version of the already underpowered T190, which models Bobcat should, in my opinion, cease to produce to save face.
I don't know so much about CAT or ASV CTL's or MTL's as they call them, except for looking over a whole line of them at our dealer that guys had traded in for Bobcat T300's, after complaining of outrageous track and undercarriage costs. T180s and 190s are traded up in a like manner. All repair bills are PIA's, but folks generally LOVE a T300 after running others. Another guy on this forum stated that he removed CAT tracks with 6 or 8 passes with a utility knife, or like words. WTF?
If you get a new Bobcat with the bling, spend the extra and get extended warranty. Get a new one every two years. I would recommend straight foot pedals with stick if going with Bobcat and you want to keep it and work on it yourself. Plan on being owned by the dealer, unless you have a local independent like me.....=).
Ron implies that Bobcat dosen't run its hydraulic oil through a cooler. Not true. Ron implies that electrically-driven add-ons to a diesel-powered system improve efficiency. Not true. Ron throws out numbers and percentages like an engineer with a math degree. I would like to see the figures. Ron is a CAT salesman.

 

[Fishfiles]

I like Bobcat mostly because here in New Orleans they have the best , by far , parts and service departments and are the most helpful and have parts in stock for you n80% of the time you walk in there ----------I like Cat on bigger machines hands down but on the minis and skids I am not very fond of them , seems every thing is harder and cost more to do on a Cat , the tracking system is a joke , and I seen more motors blow in Cat tracked loaders than any other brand even beeing the number of them around here is far less than other brands ----the one you should be looking at is the Takeuchi TL series if joy stick controll is what you are looking for , the SJC is a wiring and computor software mess and I would say it will come back to bite you at some point , Takeuchi was the pioneers of the tracked skidsteer and thier design is very similiar to where they started from , low pressure over high pressure joy stick controlls , the track system is much better made as the flat edges of the rollers ride on metal plates that are molded into the rubber tracks , the machine very seldom if ever breaks down , from what I have seen and heard the Geil and the Mustangs are Takeuchis with a paint and decal job --------- if you are set on the Bobcat I'd go with the T190 over the non-turboed T180 , you will appreciate the extra boost , you can get a wide tracked T190 which gives it a little extra floatation with wider tracks and track rail extentions , stay away from SJC or AHC ad stick with foot controll , thats my .02

 

[bobcat_ron]

I like Bobcat mostly because here in New Orleans they have the best , by far , parts and service departments and are the most helpful and have parts in stock for you n80% of the time you walk in there ----------I like Cat on bigger machines hands down but on the minis and skids I am not very fond of them , seems every thing is harder and cost more to do on a Cat , the tracking system is a joke , and I seen more motors blow in Cat tracked loaders than any other brand even beeing the number of them around here is far less than other brands ----the one you should be looking at is the Takeuchi TL series if joy stick controll is what you are looking for , the SJC is a wiring and computor software mess and I would say it will come back to bite you at some point , Takeuchi was the pioneers of the tracked skidsteer and thier design is very similiar to where they started from , low pressure over high pressure joy stick controlls , the track system is much better made as the flat edges of the rollers ride on metal plates that are molded into the rubber tracks , the machine very seldom if ever breaks down , from what I have seen and heard the Geil and the Mustangs are Takeuchis with a paint and decal job --------- if you are set on the Bobcat I'd go with the T190 over the non-turboed T180 , you will appreciate the extra boost , you can get a wide tracked T190 which gives it a little extra floatation with wider tracks and track rail extentions , stay away from SJC or AHC ad stick with foot controll , thats my .02

"
Ron implies that Bobcat doesn't run its hydraulic oil through a cooler. Not true. Ron implies that electrically-driven add-on's to a diesel-powered system improve efficiency. Not true. Ron throws out numbers and percentages like an engineer with a math degree. I would like to see the figures. Ron is a CAT salesman."

Uh, no, I am not a sales person for Cat. And if you are indeed a mechanic, you will know that anytime you take away auxiliary mechanically driven tools (like an alternator, A/C or fuel pump) you keep the power that the engine makes, I noticed with my old T190 (and newer models) that when the A/C is activated, the engine idle RPM suddenly drops a bit and the power just isn't there, with Cat (and presumably Deere) running the A/C on a remote set up, they don't lose that power since only electrical energy is needed from the alternator.
Cat has figured out how to make the D7 dozer work better by using an electrical generator powered by the engine, it worked and they now have cut the engine power down to 200 hp, down from 240.
I do know that Bobcat runs their oil through a radiator, but their whole system is not nearly as efficient as Cat and other names that use an open circut (Thomas) if you do a lot of attachment work where continuous flow is needed, the open circuits are better for cooling and heat eats up power.
What is more efficient? 2 radiators stacked on top of each other or 1 single radiator that has both the coolant and hydraulic coolers built in a 70/30 fashion?
I realize that other names (like even my favourite CTL, Takeuchi) run double stacked rads (A/C being separate) but even their oil heats up fast. Thomas was one of the first skid steers I was introduced to as a youngster and I was shown the differences, the T133 I ran for a week sure took a while to heat up the oil when digging compared to the Deere/Bobcat/Mustang models we had.

And yes, you can cut off the tracks off a Cat/ASV MTL in a few passes, but you can also do the same to a set of tires. Big deal. It all comes down to how you operate these CTL's, running over sharp rocks and cutting up the sidewalls with a SSL will do the same amount of damage to a CTL/MTL over time, it's all how you operate them.
I am not biased to Cat, if I had to do this all over again, I would have ended up with a Takeuchi TL130/230, and if Cat doesn't come out with a CTL in the medium frame in 2 years, then Takeuchi it will be.
Cat may not always be the best when stacked against the competition, but from what I have learned over the years, anyone who has operated a Bobcat, is very comfortable in a Cat just because their machines are built and designed in almost the same fashio that Bobcat is, where as Deere and Case are very odd, Deere feels like you are sitting in a bath tub and you can't see your tires, Case feels like you are sitting in a fridge with a narrow cab.
I have settled quite nicely with my Cat, yes I miss the higher ROC, but I needed the size that I have been accustomed to, not the power or undercarriage life, I needed 66" of width, less ground pressure, more floatation, more traction, comfortable cab and reliability were high on the list, The T180 was close, but not on the reliability scale, Takeuchi was almost even, but they were too tall in the LxWxH chart.

 

[thetool]

"
Ron implies that Bobcat doesn't run its hydraulic oil through a cooler. Not true. Ron implies that electrically-driven add-on's to a diesel-powered system improve efficiency. Not true. Ron throws out numbers and percentages like an engineer with a math degree. I would like to see the figures. Ron is a CAT salesman."

Uh, no, I am not a sales person for Cat. And if you are indeed a mechanic, you will know that anytime you take away auxiliary mechanically driven tools (like an alternator, A/C or fuel pump) you keep the power that the engine makes, I noticed with my old T190 (and newer models) that when the A/C is activated, the engine idle RPM suddenly drops a bit and the power just isn't there, with Cat (and presumably Deere) running the A/C on a remote set up, they don't lose that power since only electrical energy is needed from the alternator.
Cat has figured out how to make the D7 dozer work better by using an electrical generator powered by the engine, it worked and they now have cut the engine power down to 200 hp, down from 240.
I do know that Bobcat runs their oil through a radiator, but their whole system is not nearly as efficient as Cat and other names that use an open circut (Thomas) if you do a lot of attachment work where continuous flow is needed, the open circuits are better for cooling and heat eats up power.
What is more efficient? 2 radiators stacked on top of each other or 1 single radiator that has both the coolant and hydraulic coolers built in a 70/30 fashion?
I realize that other names (like even my favourite CTL, Takeuchi) run double stacked rads (A/C being separate) but even their oil heats up fast. Thomas was one of the first skid steers I was introduced to as a youngster and I was shown the differences, the T133 I ran for a week sure took a while to heat up the oil when digging compared to the Deere/Bobcat/Mustang models we had.

And yes, you can cut off the tracks off a Cat/ASV MTL in a few passes, but you can also do the same to a set of tires. Big deal. It all comes down to how you operate these CTL's, running over sharp rocks and cutting up the sidewalls with a SSL will do the same amount of damage to a CTL/MTL over time, it's all how you operate them.
I am not biased to Cat, if I had to do this all over again, I would have ended up with a Takeuchi TL130/230, and if Cat doesn't come out with a CTL in the medium frame in 2 years, then Takeuchi it will be.
Cat may not always be the best when stacked against the competition, but from what I have learned over the years, anyone who has operated a Bobcat, is very comfortable in a Cat just because their machines are built and designed in almost the same fashio that Bobcat is, where as Deere and Case are very odd, Deere feels like you are sitting in a bath tub and you can't see your tires, Case feels like you are sitting in a fridge with a narrow cab.
I have settled quite nicely with my Cat, yes I miss the higher ROC, but I needed the size that I have been accustomed to, not the power or undercarriage life, I needed 66" of width, less ground pressure, more floatation, more traction, comfortable cab and reliability were high on the list, The T180 was close, but not on the reliability scale, Takeuchi was almost even, but they were too tall in the LxWxH chart.

Junk science........
I think that if you went and borrowed a high-school level science textbook, and put it in your bathroom on top of your pile of CAT sales brochures, and perused the text at least as often as the brochures, it would more level the playing field in any further debates on basic scientific principles.
Your first thing you need to learn, quickly, is "there is no free lunch."

 

[bobcat_ron]

Junk science........
I think that if you went and borrowed a high-school level science textbook, and put it in your bathroom on top of your pile of CAT sales brochures, and perused the text at least as often as the brochures, it would more level the playing field in any further debates on basic scientific principles.
Your first thing you need to learn, quickly, is "there is no free lunch."

Oh and to clear up some errors on this topic (damn forum style doesn't allow "real" quoting) the T180 is the same frame and engine as the T190, just the loaders are radial/vertical, it's the T140 that has the bad reputation as it is non-turbo'ed (46 hp) that's the model everyone hates, and some are being traded up for Takeuchi TL220's as they are their exact size with more balls.

 

[JTS]

Oh and to clear up some errors on this topic (damn forum style doesn't allow "real" quoting) the T180 is the same frame and engine as the T190, just the loaders are radial/vertical, it's the T140 that has the bad reputation as it is non-turbo'ed (46 hp) that's the model everyone hates, and some are being traded up for Takeuchi TL220's as they are their exact size with more balls.

Thanks for the replys. I do need joystick controls because of a bum leg, so I much appreciate knowing the real deal on the Bobcat joysticks. I will stay away from them. Sound like Takeuchi/Gehl is a good machine, so I will look at those. How about the ASV PT70? All comments are appreciated!

 

[bobcat_ron]

Thanks for the replys. I do need joystick controls because of a bum leg, so I much appreciate knowing the real deal on the Bobcat joysticks. I will stay away from them. Sound like Takeuchi/Gehl is a good machine, so I will look at those. How about the ASV PT70? All comments are appreciated!

The ASV's are now Terex, and I think Terex's MTL's are now only the 30,60, 80 and the 100, the in between models may have been discontinued as Terex's ads for the MTL lines mentions nothing of the 70.
Takeuchi makes the CTL's for Gehl/Mustang names, the only thing Mustang/Gehl does is shorten the height of the cab 6" and they use a swing out door, Takeuchi uses a roll up door like an excavator front window, but their cabs are taller, so overall height from the ground up is around 86", not a big deal if you are in wide open areas, but if you need to do anything inside a building, look out.
Cat B series and Takeuchi's both use hydraulic over hydraulic pilot controls and they can be switched over to the Case pattern if that's what you want, the older Tak's had the aux. control on the left joystick, but the new 200 series have them on the right and they added a foot pedal for your throttle (thank God) The new Cat C series use the Electric over Hydraulic pilot controls (E/H) from Rexroth, Deere and New Holland also use the same system, and oddly enough, so does Bobcat, and no one knows why Bobcat has so many problems with them, but it started out with simple wires and went to hell from there.
Takeuchi knows how to build a CTL, you will get a bigger machine in a smaller package and their drive motors and rollers are long lasting. They just lack some balance, they have less track on the rear of the machine, so the weight balance feels like 80/20, but if you are like me and you use a heavy combo bucket, you get the balance back.

 

[thetool]

The ASV's are now Terex, and I think Terex's MTL's are now only the 30,60, 80 and the 100, the in between models may have been discontinued as Terex's ads for the MTL lines mentions nothing of the 70.
Takeuchi makes the CTL's for Gehl/Mustang names, the only thing Mustang/Gehl does is shorten the height of the cab 6" and they use a swing out door, Takeuchi uses a roll up door like an excavator front window, but their cabs are taller, so overall height from the ground up is around 86", not a big deal if you are in wide open areas, but if you need to do anything inside a building, look out.
Cat B series and Takeuchi's both use hydraulic over hydraulic pilot controls and they can be switched over to the Case pattern if that's what you want, the older Tak's had the aux. control on the left joystick, but the new 200 series have them on the right and they added a foot pedal for your throttle (thank God) The new Cat C series use the Electric over Hydraulic pilot controls (E/H) from Rexroth, Deere and New Holland also use the same system, and oddly enough, so does Bobcat, and no one knows why Bobcat has so many problems with them, but it started out with simple wires and went to hell from there.
Takeuchi knows how to build a CTL, you will get a bigger machine in a smaller package and their drive motors and rollers are long lasting. They just lack some balance, they have less track on the rear of the machine, so the weight balance feels like 80/20, but if you are like me and you use a heavy combo bucket, you get the balance back.

Okay I did some homework and I was wrong about T180. It is turbo'd with straight boom. I stand corrected.
All else still applies.......=).

 

[Digdeep]

The ASV's are now Terex, and I think Terex's MTL's are now only the 30,60, 80 and the 100, the in between models may have been discontinued as Terex's ads for the MTL lines mentions nothing of the 70.
Takeuchi makes the CTL's for Gehl/Mustang names, the only thing Mustang/Gehl does is shorten the height of the cab 6" and they use a swing out door, Takeuchi uses a roll up door like an excavator front window, but their cabs are taller, so overall height from the ground up is around 86", not a big deal if you are in wide open areas, but if you need to do anything inside a building, look out.
Cat B series and Takeuchi's both use hydraulic over hydraulic pilot controls and they can be switched over to the Case pattern if that's what you want, the older Tak's had the aux. control on the left joystick, but the new 200 series have them on the right and they added a foot pedal for your throttle (thank God) The new Cat C series use the Electric over Hydraulic pilot controls (E/H) from Rexroth, Deere and New Holland also use the same system, and oddly enough, so does Bobcat, and no one knows why Bobcat has so many problems with them, but it started out with simple wires and went to hell from there.
Takeuchi knows how to build a CTL, you will get a bigger machine in a smaller package and their drive motors and rollers are long lasting. They just lack some balance, they have less track on the rear of the machine, so the weight balance feels like 80/20, but if you are like me and you use a heavy combo bucket, you get the balance back.

ASV still makes all of the models including the PT70 and PT50.