Motor Swap " Thinking outside the box "

[Fabric8r]

Hello. I dont think this is a brand specific question. I have a 2005 new holland Ls 185.b skid loader. its had alot of fire damage. i just took in the Injector pump to have it rebuilt and to my dissapointment its gonna be in upwords of 2,500. " thats rediculous in my opinion." What im wondering is. I was thinking maybe i could swap it out and Fabricate in a Honda 4 cylinder motor. Like a b16 out of a honda civc. The original motor is a 3 cylinder iveco 80hp turbo diesel. my thinking is the hardest part is going to be Machining an adapter plate to fit it up to the main pump. " That aside". a Honda motor like the one im talking about is roughly 160 hp. Is there something im missing hear. wouldnt that be plenty power? " or can this be too much power?"... and ALOT CHEAPER????...also in maintenace costs down the road. Thanks for any and all imput. Thanks Scott

 

[Fabric8r]

I just looked up some specs on both motors. Although the honda motor has way more HP. the torque is much lower. Im thinking this will be a problem. am I correct here?... Stock motor 77hp @ 2,300. rpm.... 228 lb/ft ( torque ) @ 1400 rpm Honda motor 170 @ 7,600. rpm.... 128 lb/ft ( torque ) @ 6200 rpm

 

[jerry]

I don't think it makes a lot of difference what is driving the pumps as long as it is the rpm they are designed for. The Honda motor is a gas one? Horse power is measured either by force or speed and gas engines come up with higher numbers than diesel because of higher rating rpm but they are not necessarily more powerful. The diesel will deliver more force with less cubic inches because of higher compression and more btu in the fuel. Have you thought about a used engine from a combine or other farm machine, then you would have a governor also? You are right though , messicks wants $3600 for that pump, if a person bought a New Holland bit by bit it would cost millions.

 

[SkidRoe]

Hey Fadric8r,
I love thinking outside of the box!! The only fly that I can see in your ointment would be matching up the torque curves of the 2 motors.
It is likely that your original Iveco motor produces a lot more torque at lower engine speeds than the Honda, most diesels do. Even though the Honda may produce more horsepower, it does so at higher RPMs, probably 6000-7000 rpm, were the Iveco produces it's peak power at 2500-3500 rpm (these are ball park numbers). Remember, HP = torque (ft.lb) x RPM / 5254
I am presuming that your pumps are direct drive, correct? If they are belt-driven, you may be able to adjust the speed ratio to take advantage of the higher RPM Hp of the gas motor. Anyway, I am sure you see where I am going with this.
The other thing that you will need to add to any automotive engine when transplanting it into an industrial application is a governor, required to maintain a constant engine speed under varying engine loads. These are not too hard to come by, most old gas engined combines used them.
Good luck on your transplant and keep us posted on your progress.
Merry Christmas to all!!
Derek

 

[SkidRoe]

Hey Fadric8r,
I love thinking outside of the box!! The only fly that I can see in your ointment would be matching up the torque curves of the 2 motors.
It is likely that your original Iveco motor produces a lot more torque at lower engine speeds than the Honda, most diesels do. Even though the Honda may produce more horsepower, it does so at higher RPMs, probably 6000-7000 rpm, were the Iveco produces it's peak power at 2500-3500 rpm (these are ball park numbers). Remember, HP = torque (ft.lb) x RPM / 5254
I am presuming that your pumps are direct drive, correct? If they are belt-driven, you may be able to adjust the speed ratio to take advantage of the higher RPM Hp of the gas motor. Anyway, I am sure you see where I am going with this.
The other thing that you will need to add to any automotive engine when transplanting it into an industrial application is a governor, required to maintain a constant engine speed under varying engine loads. These are not too hard to come by, most old gas engined combines used them.
Good luck on your transplant and keep us posted on your progress.
Merry Christmas to all!!
Derek

Wow, this in an active post!! Two responses in the time it took me to peck mine out.
Yes, you see the dillema, I think that Jerry is on to something, going with a more common diesel out of a combine. The Iveco is sounds like it has a fairly high power density. How many cubes is it? Perkins turboed their 152.7 CID 3 banger in some applications, the Cummins 4B3.9T would also be a good alternative. Some old MF 300 combines used a Perkins 203 CID 4 cylinder, they are pretty much bullet proof.
Here's something really out side of the box: if the rest of your Iveco is in decent shape, how about an injection pump transplant? Does the Iveco have mechanical or electronic engine controls? Might be a bit of a bear if it is electronic...
Another thing, do you have the part number of the Iveco pump? I have some buddies in South Africa, where Iveco is quite a bit more popular. I have found Iveco parts a pretty cheap down there.
Derek

 

[Fabric8r]

Wow, this in an active post!! Two responses in the time it took me to peck mine out.
Yes, you see the dillema, I think that Jerry is on to something, going with a more common diesel out of a combine. The Iveco is sounds like it has a fairly high power density. How many cubes is it? Perkins turboed their 152.7 CID 3 banger in some applications, the Cummins 4B3.9T would also be a good alternative. Some old MF 300 combines used a Perkins 203 CID 4 cylinder, they are pretty much bullet proof.
Here's something really out side of the box: if the rest of your Iveco is in decent shape, how about an injection pump transplant? Does the Iveco have mechanical or electronic engine controls? Might be a bit of a bear if it is electronic...
Another thing, do you have the part number of the Iveco pump? I have some buddies in South Africa, where Iveco is quite a bit more popular. I have found Iveco parts a pretty cheap down there.
Derek

Wow Thanks for the reply and info guys. Im not much of a diesel pro. but im learning here. hear is a link to a good video on HP vs Torque http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APSfpcdgFKs Yes by the looks and what you guys have said. Diesel motors produce alot more Torque in lower rpms around 2,300. Yes i believe my pump is a direct drive. Like i said the fire was pretty bad in the machine. I took the head off cleaned it up and the pistons. the motor looks good and turns over ok. I havnt took the oil pan off yet and looked at the bottom though. I dont know the hours on the loader but my guess is pretty low seeing as how its a 2005 The fuel injector pump is a Bosch pump model # 0460423003... I can get one from the diesel store by hear for 2,200. But my fear is if i spend that money and the motor is leaking or something else?... Yes i was also wondering if I could use another brand or kind of pump. I belive its all mechanicle. Skid Roe if you could find me one that would be awsome. Thanks a Bunch guys I REALLY appreciate your imput. Merry Christmas, Scott

 

[Fabric8r]

Wow Thanks for the reply and info guys. Im not much of a diesel pro. but im learning here. hear is a link to a good video on HP vs Torque http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APSfpcdgFKs Yes by the looks and what you guys have said. Diesel motors produce alot more Torque in lower rpms around 2,300. Yes i believe my pump is a direct drive. Like i said the fire was pretty bad in the machine. I took the head off cleaned it up and the pistons. the motor looks good and turns over ok. I havnt took the oil pan off yet and looked at the bottom though. I dont know the hours on the loader but my guess is pretty low seeing as how its a 2005 The fuel injector pump is a Bosch pump model # 0460423003... I can get one from the diesel store by hear for 2,200. But my fear is if i spend that money and the motor is leaking or something else?... Yes i was also wondering if I could use another brand or kind of pump. I belive its all mechanicle. Skid Roe if you could find me one that would be awsome. Thanks a Bunch guys I REALLY appreciate your imput. Merry Christmas, Scott

Sorry guys. i had spacing, Indented paragraphs, and it seperated. but it didnt post that way. do you know why?

 

[SkidRoe]

Sorry guys. i had spacing, Indented paragraphs, and it seperated. but it didnt post that way. do you know why?

Go to your profile, scroll to the bottom and select "Use HTML Editor", last box before the bottom.
Do you have the model and serial number off of your engine? I will make no promises, but I will see what I can find out.
Actually, $2200 doesn't sound to bad for a Bosch pump, they are pricy. If the rest of the motor holds together, I really doubt that you could transplant a different motor for much less.
Cheers,
Derek

 

[Fabric8r]

Go to your profile, scroll to the bottom and select "Use HTML Editor", last box before the bottom.
Do you have the model and serial number off of your engine? I will make no promises, but I will see what I can find out.
Actually, $2200 doesn't sound to bad for a Bosch pump, they are pricy. If the rest of the motor holds together, I really doubt that you could transplant a different motor for much less.
Cheers,
Derek

im not by my machine right now. I do know the sticker that is on the motor is torn & hard to read.
The motor is a Iveco 3 cyl... i found another motor the same with this info on it... NEF TC = CNH SSL Tier 2 LS 175 and Case equivilant. 58 kW at 2300 rpm TC and 310 NM at 1400 rpm. Turbo engine.
The Injector pump is a Bosch pump model # 0460423003
anything you might find would be of great help.
Thanks

 

[Sam_French]

im not by my machine right now. I do know the sticker that is on the motor is torn & hard to read.
The motor is a Iveco 3 cyl... i found another motor the same with this info on it... NEF TC = CNH SSL Tier 2 LS 175 and Case equivilant. 58 kW at 2300 rpm TC and 310 NM at 1400 rpm. Turbo engine.
The Injector pump is a Bosch pump model # 0460423003
anything you might find would be of great help.
Thanks

Could you post some pics? I am curious how you would route the exhuast and intake plumbing. Is this a CTL? Thank You Sam