LX885 runs poor, suspect fuel delivery, need info...

Help Support SkidSteer Forum:

GerryL

Member
Joined
Jan 3, 2008
Messages
11
Hi everyone, I could use some help on this one. I've got a NH LX885 for homeowner use, I bought it used 5 years ago when I got sick of trying to move all the snow we get up here with a small truck, and fixing my washed out long driveway with a wheelbarrow and shovel. It's been a real help to me in those 5 years, and trouble free (well except for the year I left the fuel cap off and got rain water in the tank, but I got through that one). Machine currently has about 2200 hours. OK, so we got 2 snowstorms over the last 4 days; since I've had the machine, I haven't rushed to go plow, I have ice chains on all 4 tirres and adapted my 4-way plow to it, so I can move anything(if it runs). I let the snow build up, ended up with about 16". So on New Years Day I decide to plow in the afternoon and it fires up fine. I let it warm up 5 minutes or so, and start plowing. Shortly into it I was losing power, it felt kind of like when I had water last year. I was able to get it back up the driveway to check things out. Temp outside was then in the high 20's. I pulled the glass bowl, very little water in the bottom, maybe a couple drops of 'slush'. Pulled the filter to look in that housing but didn't have a new one on hand so I put the old one back. Started again, and got the same thing; idles rough, doesn't take throttle well. If I continually pump the primer it runs and smooths out well but I have to keep the pressure up. To be sure it wasn't gelled or iced I tarped the machine and put a torpedo heater on it for several hours. Everything was very warm to the touch and I tried it again, same symptoms. So I thought maybe the filter is plugged and I bought one yesterday, same symptoms. It seems to run fine if I keep pumping the primer every minute or so. I have the Lucas DPA injection pump, but what is there for a lift pump? Is it part of this pump? I've read about some being electric, but I don't see one right off. If the lift pump is part of the Lucas, is any of it user serviceable on the machine? It looks like to remove it one has to drop the oil pan and remove everything down thru the timing cover to get the gear off, then pull the pump. Any thoughts? It's -8ºF here this morning so I'm not going to play with it right now, but I need a plan before more snow comes. Thanks! -Gerry
 

skidsteer.ca

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 20, 2006
Messages
3,853
Gerry
My Ls 160 has a electric pump inline from the tank to the engine, you can hear it when the key is turned on, not sure on yours though.
Buy yourself a electric fuel pump and hook it up and see if it runs ok, we had to do this on our 3208 cat in the fuel truck because the fuel leaks back and it won't start without priming, much cheaper then a injection pump repair, imo.
Even if it get you by until you can find out how to fix the problem, it will be $50 well spent.
Ken
 
OP
OP
G

GerryL

Member
Joined
Jan 3, 2008
Messages
11
Gerry
My Ls 160 has a electric pump inline from the tank to the engine, you can hear it when the key is turned on, not sure on yours though.
Buy yourself a electric fuel pump and hook it up and see if it runs ok, we had to do this on our 3208 cat in the fuel truck because the fuel leaks back and it won't start without priming, much cheaper then a injection pump repair, imo.
Even if it get you by until you can find out how to fix the problem, it will be $50 well spent.
Ken
Ken, thanks for the reply. I know there's not one stock in the machine, I never hear one. Last night I was wondering if I could put a low pressure electric between the strainer and the injection pump; glad to hear that you've done it and it's worked. I'm assuming there must be a check ball or something in the pump and maybe it's being held open. My pump is supposed to be a Lucas DPA 3239F270; is anyone familiar with these? I'd like to get my hands on a parts diagram. I assume it's a rotary vane pump but that's a guess. -Gerry
 

skidsteer.ca

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 20, 2006
Messages
3,853
Ken, thanks for the reply. I know there's not one stock in the machine, I never hear one. Last night I was wondering if I could put a low pressure electric between the strainer and the injection pump; glad to hear that you've done it and it's worked. I'm assuming there must be a check ball or something in the pump and maybe it's being held open. My pump is supposed to be a Lucas DPA 3239F270; is anyone familiar with these? I'd like to get my hands on a parts diagram. I assume it's a rotary vane pump but that's a guess. -Gerry
Gerry
My electric pump is factory.
I don't think you can hurt anything by adding a pump with 10 psi of so. Sorry I'm not familar with the Lucas pump.
Ken
 

mllud

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 29, 2007
Messages
635
Gerry I have a lx865. i believe I have the same pump on my machine. My machine as a basket case, the the pump was thrown around for about a year. When I got my engine assembled and installed the pump it wouldnt start. I took the pump apart and inspected . the round section on the end of the pump is a vane pump .the next section is the high pressure pump and some plates with slots. I dont know what thosse plates serve they were stuck together with dried diesel fuel and moisture. The section.The section closest to gear is where the centrifical weights for the govoner. there should be a round cover on your timing gear cover with five bolts to access and unbolt the gear. you just leave the gear laying in the cover it stays in mesh with the timing gears on mine. this keeps you from loosing timing. DISCONECT THE BATTERY SO YOU DONT THE ENGINE OVER. I was careful not to change the adjustments there some mechanisms that adjust fuel dispersal and timing of injection There was a thrust washer in the govoner area
that was showing some wear.I flipped it over .So from left to right you have a centrifical vane pump. I believe this is what pulls fuel from the tank once you have it primed. then the high pressure section then the section with the govoner . be careful this unit compares to an automatic transmission.watch careful if you dissasembal. it throws parts.I dont believe you can get parts. Its one of those pieces they dont think were qualified to repair. Sorry about the long winded explaination. Im not used to talking with buttons.Any more info. needed Ill try Mike
 

mllud

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 29, 2007
Messages
635
Gerry I have a lx865. i believe I have the same pump on my machine. My machine as a basket case, the the pump was thrown around for about a year. When I got my engine assembled and installed the pump it wouldnt start. I took the pump apart and inspected . the round section on the end of the pump is a vane pump .the next section is the high pressure pump and some plates with slots. I dont know what thosse plates serve they were stuck together with dried diesel fuel and moisture. The section.The section closest to gear is where the centrifical weights for the govoner. there should be a round cover on your timing gear cover with five bolts to access and unbolt the gear. you just leave the gear laying in the cover it stays in mesh with the timing gears on mine. this keeps you from loosing timing. DISCONECT THE BATTERY SO YOU DONT THE ENGINE OVER. I was careful not to change the adjustments there some mechanisms that adjust fuel dispersal and timing of injection There was a thrust washer in the govoner area
that was showing some wear.I flipped it over .So from left to right you have a centrifical vane pump. I believe this is what pulls fuel from the tank once you have it primed. then the high pressure section then the section with the govoner . be careful this unit compares to an automatic transmission.watch careful if you dissasembal. it throws parts.I dont believe you can get parts. Its one of those pieces they dont think were qualified to repair. Sorry about the long winded explaination. Im not used to talking with buttons.Any more info. needed Ill try Mike
Jerry It sounds like your injectioin pump is doing its job once it gets fuel to it. I would add a pump sugested by others. If the vane pump isnt doing its job feeding the high pressure pump.a second low pressure inline pump may help it run long enough to lossen up stuck vane I wouldnt open up the injection pump unless it wouldnt run at all.. It a can of worms mike
 

Tazza

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Dec 7, 2004
Messages
16,840
Jerry It sounds like your injectioin pump is doing its job once it gets fuel to it. I would add a pump sugested by others. If the vane pump isnt doing its job feeding the high pressure pump.a second low pressure inline pump may help it run long enough to lossen up stuck vane I wouldnt open up the injection pump unless it wouldnt run at all.. It a can of worms mike
I agree there, injector pumps are very precisely tuned equipment that you need specialized gear to adjust correctly. As mllud said, if you do have to open the pump up be sure not to touch the parts that set the timing or fuel delivery. If you do, you will have to send the pump to a diesel shop to get it re-adjusted. You may even want to ask them for a price on one if adding a fuel pump doesn't fix your problem.
 

mllud

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 29, 2007
Messages
635
I agree there, injector pumps are very precisely tuned equipment that you need specialized gear to adjust correctly. As mllud said, if you do have to open the pump up be sure not to touch the parts that set the timing or fuel delivery. If you do, you will have to send the pump to a diesel shop to get it re-adjusted. You may even want to ask them for a price on one if adding a fuel pump doesn't fix your problem.
The new holland dealer wants $1,150.00 I did see a guy that was selling pumps on ebay that looked identical with the exception of having the tapped port that connects the fuel line to the intake manafold for the glow plug. His were new for 550.00 dollars. his were for ford tractor. I never checked to see if he had one for mine because mine worked fine after cleaning. Mike
 
OP
OP
G

GerryL

Member
Joined
Jan 3, 2008
Messages
11
The new holland dealer wants $1,150.00 I did see a guy that was selling pumps on ebay that looked identical with the exception of having the tapped port that connects the fuel line to the intake manafold for the glow plug. His were new for 550.00 dollars. his were for ford tractor. I never checked to see if he had one for mine because mine worked fine after cleaning. Mike
Lots of good info guys, thanks! I'm on the fence whether to check the vane pump or just add the electric. I'm used to hydraulic pump rebuilds at work so I'm not afraid to go after it, but I'd like to have a diagram first to see what's in there. I want to stay away from any adjustments or timing changes. Mike, is your pump like this? I've attached a link to a photo of mine. Initially I would have thought the vane pump was the small left end (red arrow), but that's where the injector lines come off. ??? So is the vane pump in the middle? Heck I'm not even sure which is the fuel in and the fuel return yet. I guess I'll pull those lines and push the primer to find out (first time with a diesel). -Gerry http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p167/GerryL_photos/pump1.jpg
 
OP
OP
G

GerryL

Member
Joined
Jan 3, 2008
Messages
11
Lots of good info guys, thanks! I'm on the fence whether to check the vane pump or just add the electric. I'm used to hydraulic pump rebuilds at work so I'm not afraid to go after it, but I'd like to have a diagram first to see what's in there. I want to stay away from any adjustments or timing changes. Mike, is your pump like this? I've attached a link to a photo of mine. Initially I would have thought the vane pump was the small left end (red arrow), but that's where the injector lines come off. ??? So is the vane pump in the middle? Heck I'm not even sure which is the fuel in and the fuel return yet. I guess I'll pull those lines and push the primer to find out (first time with a diesel). -Gerry http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p167/GerryL_photos/pump1.jpg
Let's see if I figured out this link stuff...
http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p167/GerryL_photos/pump1.jpg
 

mllud

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 29, 2007
Messages
635
Let's see if I figured out this link stuff...
http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p167/GerryL_photos/pump1.jpg
Gerry that pump looks like mine. the pump on the end has a cylinder with a drum with slots with plates that slide out with cintrifical force, the next section has a set of about of five or six roller bearings riding inside an excentric shaped drum. I may be wrong on whitch is high pressure. THE REASON I THOUGHT THE ONE ON THE END WAS LOW PRESSuRE IS BECAUSE THE PLATE ON THE VERRY END is held on with three or four small screws with a o ring under it. Im not an expert ,this was my first attempt at on of these. I had a sick feeling when i started dissasembling. I was desperate. I had ran out of money on my project and i was so close to getting it going. sorry about the caps. it wasabooboo. any adjustment that had a double nut to lock the position .I made sure not to change . with your freind as a backup you could take it apart . Good luck getting it cleared up. If you get a parts soure please let me know Mike
 

mllud

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 29, 2007
Messages
635
Gerry that pump looks like mine. the pump on the end has a cylinder with a drum with slots with plates that slide out with cintrifical force, the next section has a set of about of five or six roller bearings riding inside an excentric shaped drum. I may be wrong on whitch is high pressure. THE REASON I THOUGHT THE ONE ON THE END WAS LOW PRESSuRE IS BECAUSE THE PLATE ON THE VERRY END is held on with three or four small screws with a o ring under it. Im not an expert ,this was my first attempt at on of these. I had a sick feeling when i started dissasembling. I was desperate. I had ran out of money on my project and i was so close to getting it going. sorry about the caps. it wasabooboo. any adjustment that had a double nut to lock the position .I made sure not to change . with your freind as a backup you could take it apart . Good luck getting it cleared up. If you get a parts soure please let me know Mike
gerry the vane pump is on the very end . In the middle is the pump with the roller bearing in slots around the inside of an excentric. My terminology and spelling are probably not very good. I re read your last post. i thought you had a freind at work that did pump rebuilds It said you have done rebuilds. I would like a diagram also.If you watch careful on dissambly youl be ok Its not to bad. good luck mike
 
OP
OP
G

GerryL

Member
Joined
Jan 3, 2008
Messages
11
gerry the vane pump is on the very end . In the middle is the pump with the roller bearing in slots around the inside of an excentric. My terminology and spelling are probably not very good. I re read your last post. i thought you had a freind at work that did pump rebuilds It said you have done rebuilds. I would like a diagram also.If you watch careful on dissambly youl be ok Its not to bad. good luck mike
Well I got it done today. The weather warmed up nicely once the sun was up so I went to work on it. I decided to look into the vane pump end while the pump was on the machine. I removed the bowl/filter assembly and removed the starter for clearance. Then it was easy to pull the end off and look at the vane pump. It looked fine, vanes were all free, no scoring anywhere. Then I looked into the endplate that I took off where the fuel inlet is. That had a stack of interesting parts in it! I thought I was onto something when I found a screen that had a bunch of fine brown goo on it, and it looked partially collapsed. I cleaned it all out and inspected all the parts; it appears to be a check assembly maybe? I'm hoping I put it together right. I think so, but when disassembling they were stuck so I gave it a little tap and all the parts shot out. So anyway, after cleaning I assembled it and tested again. Same symptoms! So off to the store I went for a pump, line, filter, fittings, clamps....I installed the electric pump inline and it runs great again. So there definately appears to be something wrong in the lift pump part of the Lucas pump. Thanks for all the ideas, and if anyone ever has access to Lucas injection pump diagrams I'd appreciate getting one for mine. -Gerry
 

mllud

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 29, 2007
Messages
635
Well I got it done today. The weather warmed up nicely once the sun was up so I went to work on it. I decided to look into the vane pump end while the pump was on the machine. I removed the bowl/filter assembly and removed the starter for clearance. Then it was easy to pull the end off and look at the vane pump. It looked fine, vanes were all free, no scoring anywhere. Then I looked into the endplate that I took off where the fuel inlet is. That had a stack of interesting parts in it! I thought I was onto something when I found a screen that had a bunch of fine brown goo on it, and it looked partially collapsed. I cleaned it all out and inspected all the parts; it appears to be a check assembly maybe? I'm hoping I put it together right. I think so, but when disassembling they were stuck so I gave it a little tap and all the parts shot out. So anyway, after cleaning I assembled it and tested again. Same symptoms! So off to the store I went for a pump, line, filter, fittings, clamps....I installed the electric pump inline and it runs great again. So there definately appears to be something wrong in the lift pump part of the Lucas pump. Thanks for all the ideas, and if anyone ever has access to Lucas injection pump diagrams I'd appreciate getting one for mine. -Gerry
Mine threw parts also. when they design these units to throw part they think its job security.we show them that just makes it more interesting. glad your going again. That second pump seem to help on other threads ive seen this forum. Ill go that route if i have any more problems with mine. Mike
 
OP
OP
G

GerryL

Member
Joined
Jan 3, 2008
Messages
11
Mine threw parts also. when they design these units to throw part they think its job security.we show them that just makes it more interesting. glad your going again. That second pump seem to help on other threads ive seen this forum. Ill go that route if i have any more problems with mine. Mike
Well, let's update and revive this thread! I've been running my LX885 when needed since this problem when I froze it up in 2008. I'm a homeowner user, so it only gets maybe 30-50 hours use per year. Since I added the electric pump it starts fine and runs decent, but is down on power. I didn't notice it until I was moving heavy driveway fill in the summer. When moving snow I guess I don't need as much power. If going up my driveway I can bog the engine way down by going into high speed (electric switch on right stick). Same thing when digging dirt or trg. I'm sure this would not do well for someone using it for serious construction work, but it's been acceptable to plow/repair my driveway and move stuff around. I'm trying to decided if I should tackle it again before it gets really cold. I know the turbo is free. Any thoughts? Initial problem was a lot of water in the fuel back in 2008; froze up in bowls, lines, probably injector pump too.
Gerry
 

Tazza

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Dec 7, 2004
Messages
16,840
Well, let's update and revive this thread! I've been running my LX885 when needed since this problem when I froze it up in 2008. I'm a homeowner user, so it only gets maybe 30-50 hours use per year. Since I added the electric pump it starts fine and runs decent, but is down on power. I didn't notice it until I was moving heavy driveway fill in the summer. When moving snow I guess I don't need as much power. If going up my driveway I can bog the engine way down by going into high speed (electric switch on right stick). Same thing when digging dirt or trg. I'm sure this would not do well for someone using it for serious construction work, but it's been acceptable to plow/repair my driveway and move stuff around. I'm trying to decided if I should tackle it again before it gets really cold. I know the turbo is free. Any thoughts? Initial problem was a lot of water in the fuel back in 2008; froze up in bowls, lines, probably injector pump too.
Gerry
If you have the two speed, i believe the high speed is only used to move between two points faster, not while going up hills with a load, i may be wrong, but thats how i understood this feature to work. It puts too much of a strain on the engine and other parts to be used this way for moving dirt.
Is this true or not?
 
OP
OP
G

GerryL

Member
Joined
Jan 3, 2008
Messages
11
If you have the two speed, i believe the high speed is only used to move between two points faster, not while going up hills with a load, i may be wrong, but thats how i understood this feature to work. It puts too much of a strain on the engine and other parts to be used this way for moving dirt.
Is this true or not?
That's true; it's for getting from point A to B. I'm not trying to use high to work; just mentioning that it's bogs down when going into high.
It will bog when trying to pick up a good load of trg (in low speed of course).
 

frogfarmer

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 30, 2010
Messages
359
That's true; it's for getting from point A to B. I'm not trying to use high to work; just mentioning that it's bogs down when going into high.
It will bog when trying to pick up a good load of trg (in low speed of course).
When diesel fuel reacts with water is turns into an acid. This acid can eat injectors, pump internals, and everything related. If it had enough to freeze solid it likely had water in the system for a long time and the chance for damage is good. As a homeowner/user you can change filters and make the necessary checks in an attempt to find the problem. Those of us who run machines 6-10 hours a day dont have that option. If you dont have any smoke or unusual symptoms you might check the fuel tank pickup tube. If it is partially clogged due to algae or foreign material(plastic bag) it will be low on power.
 

skidsteer.ca

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 20, 2006
Messages
3,853
When diesel fuel reacts with water is turns into an acid. This acid can eat injectors, pump internals, and everything related. If it had enough to freeze solid it likely had water in the system for a long time and the chance for damage is good. As a homeowner/user you can change filters and make the necessary checks in an attempt to find the problem. Those of us who run machines 6-10 hours a day dont have that option. If you dont have any smoke or unusual symptoms you might check the fuel tank pickup tube. If it is partially clogged due to algae or foreign material(plastic bag) it will be low on power.
Hooking a vaccum guage to the suction line and a pessure guage after the lift pump (if its not built into the injection pump) can help narrow down fuel delivery problems too.
Put the guages where the operator can view them.
2 speed is like second gear. They install drive motors with 2 sections. Low speed the drive oil flow through both sections thus lower rpm with higher torque.
High speed the oil flow is blocked on one section forcing it to all flow though just 1/2 of that motor. This increases rpm but reduces torque. Just like using a manual trans verhicle in 2nd instead of 1st. Good when you need more speed, not good when you need more power.
Ken
 

Latest posts

Top