Lining up Engine and Pump 853

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brunsyeah

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Feb 12, 2008
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Is there a trick to lining up the engine and the pump when reinstalling? Here is some background. Just bought the machine starter not on, and apparently parts missing! First thing, the ring gear was installed backwards. Get a new one put on correctly. Put starter on, it just spins, not contacting the ring gear. Triple check part numbers its the correct starter, have both actually, wet and dry clutch starters! So I realize there are no rear engine mounts and one front mount is loose. just to verify, the engine mounts have a large probably 2" diameter rubber isolator in the stack of bolt and washer? If so, I did find the front mounts and they are both there, but the one on drivers left is loose, like someone did that on purpose. So I need to put the two rear ones, one goes under the flywheel cover and one below the injection pump? Will putting the two of these line the pump and motor up automatically? Are there any other bolts that I need to look for that are either loose, missing or that I need to loosen, that will help line the two of these up? I think since the starter mounts to the "flywheel cover" and it is not lined up correctly to the engine that it is spacing the starter out too far from the ring gear (which is solid to the engine) to make contact. I am only assuming that the two of these are not lined up correctly. The pinion on starter is close enough that the teeth on the pinion are nearly touching ridge of tooth to ridge of tooth. I am sorry for the long post and I know I am new, once I get this figured out I will hope to add some insight for others along the way. Its extremely hard to put something together that you did not take apart!
 
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brunsyeah

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Edit to above* its the drivers side right that is loose, it mounts to the front edge of the "flywheel cover"
 

Fishfiles

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Edit to above* its the drivers side right that is loose, it mounts to the front edge of the "flywheel cover"
I would have to think the starter is not the right one , as I can't see how pump alignment and /or motor mounts could have anything to do with the starter not engaging the flywheel , 7 series and 8 series used basically the same starter , the 8 has 2 more teeth (12)on the bendix than a 7 (10) , if I remember right , maybe thats why it won't make contact
 

Tazza

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I would have to think the starter is not the right one , as I can't see how pump alignment and /or motor mounts could have anything to do with the starter not engaging the flywheel , 7 series and 8 series used basically the same starter , the 8 has 2 more teeth (12)on the bendix than a 7 (10) , if I remember right , maybe thats why it won't make contact
I was sure the pump/engine setup on the 8 and 7 series were essentially the same. On my 751 the engine and pump both mount to a housing so they are always in perfect alignment. I would have to agree that the starter sounds wrong.... It should fully engage the teeth on the ring gear. I did find the mounts to the pump and motor had vibrated loose so it may not have been done that way on purpose.
If at all possible, pictures would be a real help with trouble shooting this for you. If you can take a few of the problem areas we can try and help you a bit better.
 
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brunsyeah

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I was sure the pump/engine setup on the 8 and 7 series were essentially the same. On my 751 the engine and pump both mount to a housing so they are always in perfect alignment. I would have to agree that the starter sounds wrong.... It should fully engage the teeth on the ring gear. I did find the mounts to the pump and motor had vibrated loose so it may not have been done that way on purpose.
If at all possible, pictures would be a real help with trouble shooting this for you. If you can take a few of the problem areas we can try and help you a bit better.
I will try to take some pictures tonight. What you stated though is my concern. I never thought of the engine being out of a 753, they said its the same starter for all the 853's. However, if the engine is from a 753, the flywheel and ring gear should not match up? The ring gear is for the 853. What I am curious about is the bolts that mount the motor to that housing you refer to. I think your term housing is the same as my term Flywheel cover. The housing is what the starter also mounts too! Judging by the missing bolts there is a decent chance that the housing is not bolted to the engine. Are there any other bolts connecting the engine to the pump on the other side (alternator side)? I also have 4 large carriage bolts and some large rectangular spacers (one entirely closed that looks similar to the washer/spacer that is used on the cab hold down bolts, there are several others, more than 4, that are rectangular but the holes are extended to one side, think of a C shape!) that I have yet to find out where they go, any ideas on those? When I get back to the house I will take pictures of the various components.......
 

Idoitall

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I was sure the pump/engine setup on the 8 and 7 series were essentially the same. On my 751 the engine and pump both mount to a housing so they are always in perfect alignment. I would have to agree that the starter sounds wrong.... It should fully engage the teeth on the ring gear. I did find the mounts to the pump and motor had vibrated loose so it may not have been done that way on purpose.
If at all possible, pictures would be a real help with trouble shooting this for you. If you can take a few of the problem areas we can try and help you a bit better.
I have no experience with these but have assembled lots of both small block and big block V8 Chevy's. There are a number of flywheels, starters and starter noses available for both and one can easily get the wrong match.

When you speak of the two gear teeth "almost touching" are you saying that the starter gear is traveling far enough back towards the flywheel, but is not close enough to it to engage? In other words does the starter need to move closer towards the center of the flywheel? If this is the case it sounds like one or the other is not correct. And I have to ask this. You stated that the flywheel was mounted wrong, assuming backwards, and you changed it to make it correct. Is it possible that it was correct to begin with?

A said, pictures would be a great help.
 
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brunsyeah

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I have no experience with these but have assembled lots of both small block and big block V8 Chevy's. There are a number of flywheels, starters and starter noses available for both and one can easily get the wrong match.

When you speak of the two gear teeth "almost touching" are you saying that the starter gear is traveling far enough back towards the flywheel, but is not close enough to it to engage? In other words does the starter need to move closer towards the center of the flywheel? If this is the case it sounds like one or the other is not correct. And I have to ask this. You stated that the flywheel was mounted wrong, assuming backwards, and you changed it to make it correct. Is it possible that it was correct to begin with?

A said, pictures would be a great help.
the ring gear compression fits over the flywheel. It was on wrong, and that was verified when i dropped it at the dealer to have him put it on and he asked me who did it? the pinion of the starter needs to get closer to the center of the flywheel. I have the block serial number but bobcat parts is about as much help as a touchtone answering machine when trying to think outside the unit serial number....... i will gladly oblige with pictures, even if I get an answer. That is one thing I have noticed on this site versus other forums I have been on, not alot of pictures and no "how to" section.
 

Tazza

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the ring gear compression fits over the flywheel. It was on wrong, and that was verified when i dropped it at the dealer to have him put it on and he asked me who did it? the pinion of the starter needs to get closer to the center of the flywheel. I have the block serial number but bobcat parts is about as much help as a touchtone answering machine when trying to think outside the unit serial number....... i will gladly oblige with pictures, even if I get an answer. That is one thing I have noticed on this site versus other forums I have been on, not alot of pictures and no "how to" section.
I can't help you much on the fly wheel housing or cover, it should bolt up to the engine to hold it in place. You may even need to shim it out to get the correct space between fly wheel and starter.
I'm surprised you have had a bad experience with bobcat, my dealer is great as is Mark from IM Bobcat that is on here. My dealer will fax you parts breakdowns that will show any shims or spacers that are needed and where parts actually connect to. If you still fail with getting parts lists do your self a favor, buy the parts and service manuals! Like i said, the parts manual shows where EVERYTHING goes and makes ordering a breeze as you have the correct part numbers. When you call your dealer say you need parts for the flywheel/engine/pump they should be able to fax you a list showing all the parts, this way if you do need a new starter you have the rite part number too.
 

skidsteer.ca

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I can't help you much on the fly wheel housing or cover, it should bolt up to the engine to hold it in place. You may even need to shim it out to get the correct space between fly wheel and starter.
I'm surprised you have had a bad experience with bobcat, my dealer is great as is Mark from IM Bobcat that is on here. My dealer will fax you parts breakdowns that will show any shims or spacers that are needed and where parts actually connect to. If you still fail with getting parts lists do your self a favor, buy the parts and service manuals! Like i said, the parts manual shows where EVERYTHING goes and makes ordering a breeze as you have the correct part numbers. When you call your dealer say you need parts for the flywheel/engine/pump they should be able to fax you a list showing all the parts, this way if you do need a new starter you have the rite part number too.
The only engine used in a 853 was the Isuzu, so I doubt someone swapped in a 700 series Kubota. If the flywheel in on the operators rh then it is original. You likely need a starter with a different length nose. They are a common Delco starter and the local auto eletric shop should be able to point out if there are any options,
As for the bellhousing, pumps , mounts causing the problem, so long as the bell is bolted solidly to the pump and motor everthing has to stay inline.
I would say you either have a starter nose the is too short or the flywheel/ring gear mismatch or problem.
Ken
 
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brunsyeah

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The only engine used in a 853 was the Isuzu, so I doubt someone swapped in a 700 series Kubota. If the flywheel in on the operators rh then it is original. You likely need a starter with a different length nose. They are a common Delco starter and the local auto eletric shop should be able to point out if there are any options,
As for the bellhousing, pumps , mounts causing the problem, so long as the bell is bolted solidly to the pump and motor everthing has to stay inline.
I would say you either have a starter nose the is too short or the flywheel/ring gear mismatch or problem.
Ken
Its an isuzu 4jb1 engine. I was not sure if they used the isuzu engines in any other bobcats. Its not an issue of cone length, at the least it would be an issue of pinion diamer/flywheel diameter. These are both bobcat parts that I have and are built for the 853. That doesn't tell you much though if this is not a bobcat engine. I see no reason why it wouldn't be though! I will get some pictures tmr. Skidsteer.ca, I think there may be an issue with the housing being correctly, if at all, attached to the engine? So my next question is, is anyone familiar with where the mounts are that attach the housing to the engine. Visually, the engine needs to move toward the rear of the unit in order to correctly mesh with the starter pinion..... I have a feeling there are some more bolts not correctly, if at all installed to locate the engine correctly to the bellhousing. Any words on the 4 carriage bolts?
 
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brunsyeah

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Its an isuzu 4jb1 engine. I was not sure if they used the isuzu engines in any other bobcats. Its not an issue of cone length, at the least it would be an issue of pinion diamer/flywheel diameter. These are both bobcat parts that I have and are built for the 853. That doesn't tell you much though if this is not a bobcat engine. I see no reason why it wouldn't be though! I will get some pictures tmr. Skidsteer.ca, I think there may be an issue with the housing being correctly, if at all, attached to the engine? So my next question is, is anyone familiar with where the mounts are that attach the housing to the engine. Visually, the engine needs to move toward the rear of the unit in order to correctly mesh with the starter pinion..... I have a feeling there are some more bolts not correctly, if at all installed to locate the engine correctly to the bellhousing. Any words on the 4 carriage bolts?
All of the pictures are in the gallery. I am not sure how to attach them directly to the post. Two of the pictures are of all the random bolts I picked up from the back of the trailer. The other pictures are of the rust marks that gave me the idea that the motor and bell/flywheel housing are not lined up correctly. There is another picture of the starter, correct part number! Finally are the pictures of the two motor mounts...... Looks like some of the C shaped spacers are for the bellhousing mount to the frame of the BC, the rest are a mystery.....
 
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brunsyeah

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All of the pictures are in the gallery. I am not sure how to attach them directly to the post. Two of the pictures are of all the random bolts I picked up from the back of the trailer. The other pictures are of the rust marks that gave me the idea that the motor and bell/flywheel housing are not lined up correctly. There is another picture of the starter, correct part number! Finally are the pictures of the two motor mounts...... Looks like some of the C shaped spacers are for the bellhousing mount to the frame of the BC, the rest are a mystery.....
forgot the link! http://
You must remove the
http://
from the link to get it to work. If you open the picture in the album (not the link to the picture) and "copy" it then you can paste in in the text box as below.
Ken
www.skidsteerforum.com/DesktopDefault.aspx?tabid=52&gallerypage=0&path=Bobcat%20853%20flywheel%20Housing%20and%20starter
IMGP0346.JPG

IMGP0348.JPG

IMGP0350.JPG

IMGP0357.JPG

IMGP0359.JPG
 

skidsteer.ca

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forgot the link! http://
You must remove the
http://
from the link to get it to work. If you open the picture in the album (not the link to the picture) and "copy" it then you can paste in in the text box as below.
Ken
www.skidsteerforum.com/DesktopDefault.aspx?tabid=52&gallerypage=0&path=Bobcat%20853%20flywheel%20Housing%20and%20starter
It looks to me like the bell housing bolts on the engine have come loose and the belt tension has pulled the the bell housing to the rear, moving the starter gear out from the ring gear.
I looked through my manual and there are no pics that help, But I would say you remove the flywheel from the crankshaft unless you can see any bolts around the outside of the flywheel holding the bell to the engine. I would think there should be some pins to align the bell to the block. The holes could be all worn out on the bell, or something crack as a result of the motor mount bolts no being tight.
In the end it might be easier to pull the engine and pump assembly out of the machine where you can get a good look at it.
Hope I'm wrong
Ken
 
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brunsyeah

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It looks to me like the bell housing bolts on the engine have come loose and the belt tension has pulled the the bell housing to the rear, moving the starter gear out from the ring gear.
I looked through my manual and there are no pics that help, But I would say you remove the flywheel from the crankshaft unless you can see any bolts around the outside of the flywheel holding the bell to the engine. I would think there should be some pins to align the bell to the block. The holes could be all worn out on the bell, or something crack as a result of the motor mount bolts no being tight.
In the end it might be easier to pull the engine and pump assembly out of the machine where you can get a good look at it.
Hope I'm wrong
Ken
It looks like there are 7 bolts total that mount the housing to the engine. Does anyone know the specs on these 7 bolts. None of the local bobcats have them in stock so a trip the hardware store should get me these 7 bolts. I have a feeling that some if not all are missing so there will be an issue with removing and taking them with me to the store to match up! There are 3 bolts that are identical, 2 more that are identical, and 2 more that are identical.
 
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brunsyeah

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It looks like there are 7 bolts total that mount the housing to the engine. Does anyone know the specs on these 7 bolts. None of the local bobcats have them in stock so a trip the hardware store should get me these 7 bolts. I have a feeling that some if not all are missing so there will be an issue with removing and taking them with me to the store to match up! There are 3 bolts that are identical, 2 more that are identical, and 2 more that are identical.
I am sorry there are only 5 bolts that mount the engine to the housing. There are 3 that are identical and two more that are identical. Should be like a 9/16 for one set and 5/8 for the other set.....thats just a memory guess! Andrew
 

Tazza

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I am sorry there are only 5 bolts that mount the engine to the housing. There are 3 that are identical and two more that are identical. Should be like a 9/16 for one set and 5/8 for the other set.....thats just a memory guess! Andrew
From what i can see, the housing looks snug against the block.... It would be a good idea to ensure the bolts are there and are tight!
 
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brunsyeah

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From what i can see, the housing looks snug against the block.... It would be a good idea to ensure the bolts are there and are tight!
I think I have it figured out!
I pulled the flywheel and lifted the cab to figure out what I could.
I got the motor mounts today from local bobcat dealer and had them print off the expanded parts diagram to figure out whats missing!
Start with my assumption about what happened, they removed the engine from the bobcat, but in the process decided not to remove the pump, so essentially everything connecting the two has something wrong with it!
Damages so far: 2 rear motor mounts missing
one of the top bolts that connect the motor to the flywheel housing (which is called the Mount #29 on the parts diagram) is missing. These are diagram number 27 (pn# 5cm1025)there are three across the top.
The two bottom bolts that connect the motor to the flywheel housing (Mount) are missing. These are diagram number 31 (pn# 12cm1230)
The bolt attaching the hydraulic pump to the front left motor mount is missing, Diagram number 9 (pn# 17c840)
So that is where I stand! None of these instock at local dealer so it will be late in the week before I get back to it....
So here is what happened in my opinion. I know the motors been replaced, they put the motor back in, didn't install all the bolts, but it was lined up good enough at the time to start the engine and drive, as they drove the two vibrated away from each other, the starter then began barely touching the ring gear, this destroyed the original ring gear. they thought oh thats the problem so they replaced the ring gear, they put a new one on, but it was backwards! Anyway that wouldn't fix the problem as the starter no longer touched the ring gear!
Solution: Pull the pump and flywheel housing forward, replace the front left bolt and tighten the front right motor mount back into place (it is also out of its mount as it just slides in and out!). Then pull the motor backwards to align the motor to flywheel housing mounts and hook those back up. Big finish with actually installing rear motor mounts!
 

Tazza

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I think I have it figured out!
I pulled the flywheel and lifted the cab to figure out what I could.
I got the motor mounts today from local bobcat dealer and had them print off the expanded parts diagram to figure out whats missing!
Start with my assumption about what happened, they removed the engine from the bobcat, but in the process decided not to remove the pump, so essentially everything connecting the two has something wrong with it!
Damages so far: 2 rear motor mounts missing
one of the top bolts that connect the motor to the flywheel housing (which is called the Mount #29 on the parts diagram) is missing. These are diagram number 27 (pn# 5cm1025)there are three across the top.
The two bottom bolts that connect the motor to the flywheel housing (Mount) are missing. These are diagram number 31 (pn# 12cm1230)
The bolt attaching the hydraulic pump to the front left motor mount is missing, Diagram number 9 (pn# 17c840)
So that is where I stand! None of these instock at local dealer so it will be late in the week before I get back to it....
So here is what happened in my opinion. I know the motors been replaced, they put the motor back in, didn't install all the bolts, but it was lined up good enough at the time to start the engine and drive, as they drove the two vibrated away from each other, the starter then began barely touching the ring gear, this destroyed the original ring gear. they thought oh thats the problem so they replaced the ring gear, they put a new one on, but it was backwards! Anyway that wouldn't fix the problem as the starter no longer touched the ring gear!
Solution: Pull the pump and flywheel housing forward, replace the front left bolt and tighten the front right motor mount back into place (it is also out of its mount as it just slides in and out!). Then pull the motor backwards to align the motor to flywheel housing mounts and hook those back up. Big finish with actually installing rear motor mounts!
Most people when they remove the engine pull the pump too, its just so much easier. Pulling just the engine without the pump is harder than pulling the two together.
Glad you seem to have found the problem.
You agree the exploded diagrams sure do help? I have found them to to be a great asset with machines that you aren't sure if parts are missing or not.
 
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brunsyeah

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Most people when they remove the engine pull the pump too, its just so much easier. Pulling just the engine without the pump is harder than pulling the two together.
Glad you seem to have found the problem.
You agree the exploded diagrams sure do help? I have found them to to be a great asset with machines that you aren't sure if parts are missing or not.
The diagram was very helpful, once I knew what I was looking for.
Does anyone know where to find an electrical diagram? I found one unhooked connector and a cut wire under the cab on quick inspection.
The parts counter guy, hilarious again. I asked a few questions about what part numbers were where and some other simple questions about a cross reference for the bolt sizes, he looked at me and said "I am not a mechanic". He confirmed this when he asked for my serial, I said its an 853 and rattled off the last 5 digits, he honestly tried to just put in the last 5 and said "that is not a valid serial number". Next time I should pull up a seat next to him and get comfy.....
 

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