getting frusterated pleae help!

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Bignbadbelair

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Joined
Jan 4, 2011
Messages
13
hey guys i have a 441 mustang (well omc owatonna) it has a perkins 4.108 (4 cylinder diesel) in it. well the skid steer was sitting long time before i got it. so when first got it the starter just clicked. well after while got it to crank over but you really gotta mess with the key clicking it over back and forth. the starter will just click sometimes louder then others... but after playing around for while it will turn engine over. i need to get that fixed. also i cannot get skid steer to run. can get it turning over and to the point where it will try to start my kicking over band smoke coming out of exhaust but never can get it running. i have e electric fuel pump on it. i am getting plenty of fuel to the injection pump. i do see the motor has glowplugs in it. but i don't know if they are any good. is there any way to test them? also where can you get glowplugs for it? i have a parts manual and operators manual for it. but the parts manual don't go into detail on the engine components or anything. Any help is very appreciated. I bled the injection pump and then after getting fuel to injection pump i cracked the lines going to injectors until fuel started coming out of them. then tightened them. still no fire. like i said it will kick over trying to start but not fully running yet. Please help me out! I would like to get this thing up and running so i can use it but cant find many resources for these skid steers. i cant even find much at all about the engines either.
 

Rookie

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Oct 24, 2010
Messages
70
1) How old is the fuel in it? 2) What color is the exhaust smoke? 3) Sounds like you need a new starter solenoid (or a rebuilt starter). 4) Install a 30-0-30 internally shunted ammeter in series with the glow plug buss bar. Should read ~28 amps without trying to start the engine. The amp draw will taper off as the plugs warm up. You can get the glowplugs online cheap. Do a Google search with the part number. 5) I assume the battery is fully charged, and of the correct capacity? 6) Check here for parts: http://www.goldeneagleec.com/ 7) The Perkins 4-108 has been around for ages, mostly for small generators and sailboat engines. Lots of info on them out there - You Tube, Google, etc.
 

Tazza

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1) How old is the fuel in it? 2) What color is the exhaust smoke? 3) Sounds like you need a new starter solenoid (or a rebuilt starter). 4) Install a 30-0-30 internally shunted ammeter in series with the glow plug buss bar. Should read ~28 amps without trying to start the engine. The amp draw will taper off as the plugs warm up. You can get the glowplugs online cheap. Do a Google search with the part number. 5) I assume the battery is fully charged, and of the correct capacity? 6) Check here for parts: http://www.goldeneagleec.com/ 7) The Perkins 4-108 has been around for ages, mostly for small generators and sailboat engines. Lots of info on them out there - You Tube, Google, etc.
I'd pull the plugs and hook them up to a battery one at a time, they should glow right to the tip.
As it has been sitting for a long time, its possible your injectors are stuck. There is a needle and seat that create the injector nozzle (assuming its an indirect injection motor) I have found they can stick causing them to not function correctly. I have pulled them apart and freed this part up, lubed with WD40 and re-assembled and the machine never missed a beat.
 
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Bignbadbelair

Member
Joined
Jan 4, 2011
Messages
13
1) How old is the fuel in it? 2) What color is the exhaust smoke? 3) Sounds like you need a new starter solenoid (or a rebuilt starter). 4) Install a 30-0-30 internally shunted ammeter in series with the glow plug buss bar. Should read ~28 amps without trying to start the engine. The amp draw will taper off as the plugs warm up. You can get the glowplugs online cheap. Do a Google search with the part number. 5) I assume the battery is fully charged, and of the correct capacity? 6) Check here for parts: http://www.goldeneagleec.com/ 7) The Perkins 4-108 has been around for ages, mostly for small generators and sailboat engines. Lots of info on them out there - You Tube, Google, etc.
The fuel is new, exhaust smoke is white, yeah i am guessing very soon the starter is going to crap the bed on me. ill either buy another or get it rebuilt i see ones on ebay pretty cheap wonder if they are any good? Where do i find the part number on the glowplugs? also are they a self limiting glow plug? cause i know in the manual it says hold them 30 secs then keep holding them while turning motor over and if motor don't start keep holding them another 30 sec. my then you just held them on for over a minute. I just wanna make sure i don't burn them out. the battery is also brand new 1000 cranking amp. also have big battery charger the medium mode is 60amp high boost mode is 360 amp. so i keep making sure battery is fully charged at all times.
 
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Bignbadbelair

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Joined
Jan 4, 2011
Messages
13
The fuel is new, exhaust smoke is white, yeah i am guessing very soon the starter is going to crap the bed on me. ill either buy another or get it rebuilt i see ones on ebay pretty cheap wonder if they are any good? Where do i find the part number on the glowplugs? also are they a self limiting glow plug? cause i know in the manual it says hold them 30 secs then keep holding them while turning motor over and if motor don't start keep holding them another 30 sec. my then you just held them on for over a minute. I just wanna make sure i don't burn them out. the battery is also brand new 1000 cranking amp. also have big battery charger the medium mode is 60amp high boost mode is 360 amp. so i keep making sure battery is fully charged at all times.
As soon as i can find my test light I am going to check my glowplugs and get back to you guys.
 
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Bignbadbelair

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Jan 4, 2011
Messages
13
As soon as i can find my test light I am going to check my glowplugs and get back to you guys.
okay guys i tested my glowplugs they are good. i also have juice going to them when i push the button in to make them glow. (i did like you said and took off all of the metal lines that tie them together and tested them with the wire end of test light hooked up to the positive terminal of the battery) and they all make the light light up. then i hooked the wire end of test light to a ground and tested if there was juice going to the glowplugs and yes there is. so i am guessing this is still a fuel related issue why it wont start. i also still need to get the starter rebuilt.
 

Rookie

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Oct 24, 2010
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The fuel is new, exhaust smoke is white, yeah i am guessing very soon the starter is going to crap the bed on me. ill either buy another or get it rebuilt i see ones on ebay pretty cheap wonder if they are any good? Where do i find the part number on the glowplugs? also are they a self limiting glow plug? cause i know in the manual it says hold them 30 secs then keep holding them while turning motor over and if motor don't start keep holding them another 30 sec. my then you just held them on for over a minute. I just wanna make sure i don't burn them out. the battery is also brand new 1000 cranking amp. also have big battery charger the medium mode is 60amp high boost mode is 360 amp. so i keep making sure battery is fully charged at all times.
White exhaust smoke indicates a cold combustion chamber and unburned fuel. Sniff your dipstick and see if it has a hint of a smell of diesel in the lube oil - could be low compression caused by worn, stuck, or broken piston rings. You could also have a timing issue. When you get it started notice if the exhaust smoke turns from white to blue, a true indicator of a worn (but not worn out) engine.
 
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Bignbadbelair

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Joined
Jan 4, 2011
Messages
13
White exhaust smoke indicates a cold combustion chamber and unburned fuel. Sniff your dipstick and see if it has a hint of a smell of diesel in the lube oil - could be low compression caused by worn, stuck, or broken piston rings. You could also have a timing issue. When you get it started notice if the exhaust smoke turns from white to blue, a true indicator of a worn (but not worn out) engine.
I will let you know IF i can get this thing to run. So far i haven't been able to but no luck at all so far. it kicks over like it wants to try to but never starts. really getting me upset at it.
 

Rookie

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Oct 24, 2010
Messages
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I will let you know IF i can get this thing to run. So far i haven't been able to but no luck at all so far. it kicks over like it wants to try to but never starts. really getting me upset at it.
I'm really against this, but have you tried giving it a small shot of ether starting fluid? Stand by with a piece of plywood to cover the air intake in case of a runaway.
 
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Bignbadbelair

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Jan 4, 2011
Messages
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I'm really against this, but have you tried giving it a small shot of ether starting fluid? Stand by with a piece of plywood to cover the air intake in case of a runaway.
ya if shot very small amount kicks over a little faster but not really fast or anything but don't run. then if i just shoot small amount it makes starter hard to turn motor over. but wont start up completely.
 

Rookie

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Oct 24, 2010
Messages
70
ya if shot very small amount kicks over a little faster but not really fast or anything but don't run. then if i just shoot small amount it makes starter hard to turn motor over. but wont start up completely.
I think it's tome for a compression or leak-down test. Do you have the inline or rotary style fuel injection pump (those engines came with either style)?
 

Des

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 17, 2011
Messages
59
ya if shot very small amount kicks over a little faster but not really fast or anything but don't run. then if i just shoot small amount it makes starter hard to turn motor over. but wont start up completely.
How fast is the engine cranking over you need min 300 rpm to start Also could have cracked cylinder head I have repaired 441 that would not start and found cylinder head badly cracked
 
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Bignbadbelair

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Jan 4, 2011
Messages
13
How fast is the engine cranking over you need min 300 rpm to start Also could have cracked cylinder head I have repaired 441 that would not start and found cylinder head badly cracked
its a rotary pump. idk exactly but it does turn over and trys to start to kick over and get smoke out the exhaust. just idk kinda acts like not getting enough fuel. wonder if there is jelled up fuel from sitting inside the injection pump not allowing it to work correctly?
 

Rookie

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Oct 24, 2010
Messages
70
its a rotary pump. idk exactly but it does turn over and trys to start to kick over and get smoke out the exhaust. just idk kinda acts like not getting enough fuel. wonder if there is jelled up fuel from sitting inside the injection pump not allowing it to work correctly?
It should actually start on the ether whether it is getting fuel or not. It sound to me now like there is very poor compression. Check your valve lash, and also run a compression or cylinder leak-down test to see where you're at. If you have installed fresh fuel, more than likely the old fuel has been purged by now. You could also have plugged injectors but that doesn't explain why it won't start on ether. Do one of the tests as requested and we'll go from there.
 

JACO

Member
Joined
Mar 21, 2022
Messages
12
hey guys i have a 441 mustang (well omc owatonna) it has a perkins 4.108 (4 cylinder diesel) in it. well the skid steer was sitting long time before i got it. so when first got it the starter just clicked. well after while got it to crank over but you really gotta mess with the key clicking it over back and forth. the starter will just click sometimes louder then others... but after playing around for while it will turn engine over. i need to get that fixed. also i cannot get skid steer to run. can get it turning over and to the point where it will try to start my kicking over band smoke coming out of exhaust but never can get it running. i have e electric fuel pump on it. i am getting plenty of fuel to the injection pump. i do see the motor has glowplugs in it. but i don't know if they are any good. is there any way to test them? also where can you get glowplugs for it? i have a parts manual and operators manual for it. but the parts manual don't go into detail on the engine components or anything. Any help is very appreciated. I bled the injection pump and then after getting fuel to injection pump i cracked the lines going to injectors until fuel started coming out of them. then tightened them. still no fire. like i said it will kick over trying to start but not fully running yet. Please help me out! I would like to get this thing up and running so i can use it but cant find many resources for these skid steers. i cant even find much at all about the engines either.
HAVING THE SAME PROBLEM WITH MINE. STARTER FINALLY GAVE OUT. ENGINE HAS TO SPIN @ 300 + RPM. HOPING THIS WILL SOLVE MY PROBLEM AND YOURS. LOOK OUT STARTERS ARE PRICEY...@$440 REBUILD !
 

BRO0214

New member
Joined
Mar 20, 2022
Messages
4
What temperature is it
If it cool out plug it in
I find mine does the same thing, if I plug it in it starts right away
Just a thought
 

ddbackhoe

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 22, 2016
Messages
66
HAVING THE SAME PROBLEM WITH MINE. STARTER FINALLY GAVE OUT. ENGINE HAS TO SPIN @ 300 + RPM. HOPING THIS WILL SOLVE MY PROBLEM AND YOURS. LOOK OUT STARTERS ARE PRICEY...@$440 REBUILD !
check the cranking amps on your batteries. If batteries arent up to snuff, starter will not turn fast enough, it'll huff and puff but never get there.
 

JACO

Member
Joined
Mar 21, 2022
Messages
12
ONCE I TOOK THE 54 LB. STARTER OUT [WHAT A PAIN] AND APART I'M WONDERING HOW IT EVER STARTED? THOUGHT IT WAS JUST SOLENOID NOT...
ALL THE BUSHINGS WERE BAD, ARMATURE BAD, BRUSHES BAD, FIELD WINDING HAD BEEN HOT, DRIVE GEAR BUSHINGS & GEAR , WORE THE NOSE CONE OUT TOO! GLAD THE FLYWHEEL WASN'T GRINDING .
500.00 LATER WAITING FOR WEATHER TO WARM & DRY UP AGAIN TO GET THE 54 LB STARTED BOLTED IN AND HOPE THAT IT WASN'T TURNING OVER FAST ENOUGH TO START.
MINE TOO HAD SAT OUT FOR 10 + YRS. BEFORE I BOUGHT IT BUT GOT 5 GOOD YRS. OUT OF IT SO FAR. BOUGHT IT FROM A ESTATE AND NOT SURE WHAT MODEL IT IS ? HAS A PERKINS 4.108 AND LOOKS TO BE A 70-80'S MUSTANG...TAG #S ARE WORN OFF 441--?
 

North Idaho Wolfman

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 16, 2015
Messages
66
ONCE I TOOK THE 54 LB. STARTER OUT [WHAT A PAIN] AND APART I'M WONDERING HOW IT EVER STARTED? THOUGHT IT WAS JUST SOLENOID NOT...
ALL THE BUSHINGS WERE BAD, ARMATURE BAD, BRUSHES BAD, FIELD WINDING HAD BEEN HOT, DRIVE GEAR BUSHINGS & GEAR , WORE THE NOSE CONE OUT TOO! GLAD THE FLYWHEEL WASN'T GRINDING .
500.00 LATER WAITING FOR WEATHER TO WARM & DRY UP AGAIN TO GET THE 54 LB STARTED BOLTED IN AND HOPE THAT IT WASN'T TURNING OVER FAST ENOUGH TO START.
MINE TOO HAD SAT OUT FOR 10 + YRS. BEFORE I BOUGHT IT BUT GOT 5 GOOD YRS. OUT OF IT SO FAR. BOUGHT IT FROM A ESTATE AND NOT SURE WHAT MODEL IT IS ? HAS A PERKINS 4.108 AND LOOKS TO BE A 70-80'S MUSTANG...TAG #S ARE WORN OFF 441--?
Damage like that usually happens when the starter stays engaged after it starts.
Make sure the switch, solenoid, or relay is not causing it to stay engaged.
 

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