cold weather operation

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jackel440

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Jan 3, 2008
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Alright here is some questions for you. I tried out my new toy today for the first time since i got her home.For those just tuning in it is a 03' ls170 Alright when i got her home friday and unloaded her it was like 25F out and it was fine had to glow it twice to start on the trailer.Well I thought i would use it to move some hay bales to my barn.well it is only 12f degrees out.I had to glow it quite a few time to get her to start.I let her run for a while to warm up.Backed her out of the shop turned it around and started driving to the barn.went about 800ft and she started to bog down.I let up on the sticks and slowed the throttle.the idle came back up.took off again went out to another barn loaded up some hay in the bucket.drove to the stable ,and it tried to bog down again.I stopped let the power come back up ,and then went on into the barn.I put the hay away left it running.The engine temp was running around 167 - 170F.Oh yeah that heater is nice in the cab.Took her back down to the house and it slowed down and died.restarted fine went the rest of the way to the shop.I put her to full throttle and started to drive and it went 20' and started to bog down again.slowed the throttle down and she was fine. I put her in the shop(which isn't heated) I checked the temp on the hydraulics on the dash ,and it just said "cold" still.how long does it take to warm up the hydraulic oil? I wondered if my problems might be either cold hydraulic fluid,or maybe the desiel fuel was trying to freeze up at the faster rpm's.I don't know if there is any additives in the fuel or not it was full when i picked it up. Anybody have any problems like this in the cold? Thanks Aaron
 

robmints

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Jan 13, 2008
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Hey Aaron. I don't even have a SS but it sounds like fuel gelling. If these things don't have a fuel heater it will not ever warm up. It needs an additive to keep it from gelling in the first place or store it in a warmer environment or heat it up before you use it. Lots of people use the winter Power Service and like it. I live in MD and my truck has a fuel heater and I plug in over night. That still would not save me on a cold night but the winter fuel already has some additive in it. Bio diesel will gell up quicker than dino. It is hard to get a handle on what is going on until you know what is in your tank. I don't know if pulling some out and setting a thin layer of it in a dish or jar would tell you anything or not. I would safely heat the machine up with a torpedo or other heat source and add some winter additive and run it so the treated fuel was sure to be well mixed and through the system. On a different but related subject I'm kind of goofy but I run synthetic lubes in everything I own that can be reasonably switched. That way the temp of the hydraulic or lube oil would be things you could cross off the list because the syn is much less likely to thicken, but the guys here will need to tell us new guys if changing over a SS is practical or recommended.
 

Tazza

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It will take some time to warm the hydraulics up, my manual says to engage your axu hydraulics so it goes over the relief. This will cause it to heat up. If you just run the machine the hydraulics aren't under load and will not warm up, you need to load it down to get it warm.
When really cold you will need to give it a good glow, even block heaters may be a good investment, it will take stress off the engine starting in those temperatures.
 

mllud

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Jun 29, 2007
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635
Im not sure what engine you have. If Its the three cylinder ford. There is a freeze plug behind your starter that you can remove and install a block heater. $29 at the dealer. I installed one in my lx865 when I tebuilt the engine. Cold starts are hard on diesel. I bought mine with a thrown rod. my neighbor started it on a 5 degrees farenhiet day to split wood. the rod just broke in half.There was probably a flaw in the metal but the cold probably also contributed. My haudraulic system doesnt seem to be effected to much by cold. I let it warm about 5 minuts.I forgot to park close enough to plug in the heater the other night. It was about 35 degrees. It kicked off with a short glow and died, I hit the starter again and it started.I think a block heater would be an asset. I live in missouri. If your farther north it would pay. I dont know how much difference there is between your ls170 and my lx865 Mike
 

skidsteer.ca

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Jan 20, 2006
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Aaron
|Change your fuel filters, one in the back door and one inline above the tank on th left side.
You may have summer blended fuel if it sat from the summer months.
Also do you here the electric pump run when you turn the key on b4 you start the engine
It is normal for the hydralics to say cold for a long time in the winter, I forget where the temp begins to read in numbers with the hyd, ut even brush mowing in summer I rarely see 120f
Ken
 
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jackel440

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Jan 3, 2008
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Aaron
|Change your fuel filters, one in the back door and one inline above the tank on th left side.
You may have summer blended fuel if it sat from the summer months.
Also do you here the electric pump run when you turn the key on b4 you start the engine
It is normal for the hydralics to say cold for a long time in the winter, I forget where the temp begins to read in numbers with the hyd, ut even brush mowing in summer I rarely see 120f
Ken
All right I pulled the filters and they were fine.Did put some anti gell in the fuel.I let it idle around 11 rpm and it would run ok.If i take up the rpms to 2000rpm it will run for about 30 secs and then it starts puking again.I did get the hydraulics to get above the 32 degree though. After checkin the fuel and filters we looked at the air filter and they are in good condition.So we think it might be a fuel delivery problem.we plumbed a pressur gauge into the fuel line after the pump.With the key on ,and feeling the pump run the guage did not move.I started the engine and let it run at about 100rpms.still know reading on the guage.I slowly crimped the hose and right before the engine would die the guage would make it to 5 psi. I am thinking the pump is weak.What should the pressure be after the pump?10 psi or more?Shouldn't i have pressure reading on the guage while it is idling?Maybe i have a weak pump that can supply enough fuel to run at slow speed ,but starves the fuel at higher rpm.What do you guys think?Man this stinks I just got this sucker and i can't even use it!
 

Earthwerks Unlimited

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Dec 21, 2007
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All right I pulled the filters and they were fine.Did put some anti gell in the fuel.I let it idle around 11 rpm and it would run ok.If i take up the rpms to 2000rpm it will run for about 30 secs and then it starts puking again.I did get the hydraulics to get above the 32 degree though. After checkin the fuel and filters we looked at the air filter and they are in good condition.So we think it might be a fuel delivery problem.we plumbed a pressur gauge into the fuel line after the pump.With the key on ,and feeling the pump run the guage did not move.I started the engine and let it run at about 100rpms.still know reading on the guage.I slowly crimped the hose and right before the engine would die the guage would make it to 5 psi. I am thinking the pump is weak.What should the pressure be after the pump?10 psi or more?Shouldn't i have pressure reading on the guage while it is idling?Maybe i have a weak pump that can supply enough fuel to run at slow speed ,but starves the fuel at higher rpm.What do you guys think?Man this stinks I just got this sucker and i can't even use it!
Get some Power Service anti-gelling formula and add it to the fuel that's in there, and top off with fresh. Some how heat the fuel or like a biuddy did when his entire fuel system gelled was sipho all the fuel out, bring it in some where it's warm and let it get warm than dump it back in and run the crap out of it to use up the old stuff. Get fresh winterized fuel in there and use the Power Service again. Tractor Supply or any good auto supply will have it. Don't get the Cetane booster which is good for summer use--it doesn't have anti-gelling additives in it. Also, keep in mind that if the fuel tank had old fuel in it and it was low to begin with there could be moisture that stays in the tank which then turns to ice in the filters clogging them.
 
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jackel440

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Get some Power Service anti-gelling formula and add it to the fuel that's in there, and top off with fresh. Some how heat the fuel or like a biuddy did when his entire fuel system gelled was sipho all the fuel out, bring it in some where it's warm and let it get warm than dump it back in and run the crap out of it to use up the old stuff. Get fresh winterized fuel in there and use the Power Service again. Tractor Supply or any good auto supply will have it. Don't get the Cetane booster which is good for summer use--it doesn't have anti-gelling additives in it. Also, keep in mind that if the fuel tank had old fuel in it and it was low to begin with there could be moisture that stays in the tank which then turns to ice in the filters clogging them.
I did put some Power Service in it.The tank was almost full.We have it inside ,and had a salamander blowing on it.It will run.It just won't run very long when you rev up the rpms.It acts like it is starving for fuel.I thought it was freezing up too,but i am not so sure now.when we took the filter off fuel pour right out no water there.Any one know about what the fuel pressure is supposed to be?
 

mllud

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Jun 29, 2007
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635
Get some Power Service anti-gelling formula and add it to the fuel that's in there, and top off with fresh. Some how heat the fuel or like a biuddy did when his entire fuel system gelled was sipho all the fuel out, bring it in some where it's warm and let it get warm than dump it back in and run the crap out of it to use up the old stuff. Get fresh winterized fuel in there and use the Power Service again. Tractor Supply or any good auto supply will have it. Don't get the Cetane booster which is good for summer use--it doesn't have anti-gelling additives in it. Also, keep in mind that if the fuel tank had old fuel in it and it was low to begin with there could be moisture that stays in the tank which then turns to ice in the filters clogging them.
Aron : If your fuel line between the tank and injector pump has any way of sucking air, a loose clamp, a pin hole in the fuel line. It may not leak but draw air into your system That would be easy to check and eliminate as a possibility Mike
 
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jackel440

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Aron : If your fuel line between the tank and injector pump has any way of sucking air, a loose clamp, a pin hole in the fuel line. It may not leak but draw air into your system That would be easy to check and eliminate as a possibility Mike
all the hoses are in good shape and the connections were nice and tight.I am trying to find a pump on the net and the pump specs,but no luck yet.I will try a few other things tomorrow after work.I know i am frustrated with it right now. thanks for the ideas guys Aaron
 

Tazza

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Aron : If your fuel line between the tank and injector pump has any way of sucking air, a loose clamp, a pin hole in the fuel line. It may not leak but draw air into your system That would be easy to check and eliminate as a possibility Mike
Get someone to sit in the machine and run it, stand out the back and get them to rev it up and when it starts to die give the primer bulb a squeeze. If it recovers it sounds like a weak lift pump. Check the screw on the top of the injector to ensure its fully closed, if its open it will give you a lack of fuel pressure that would cause the problems you are talking about.
 

mllud

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Aron : If your fuel line between the tank and injector pump has any way of sucking air, a loose clamp, a pin hole in the fuel line. It may not leak but draw air into your system That would be easy to check and eliminate as a possibility Mike
Aron : I believe Your pump should be 6 to 10 pounds. there are several places in my trouble shooting guide that refer to air being drawn into the system. as a cause to similar symptoms a yours. check where your fuel line connects to the tank. you could also pull the pickup tube out and inspect it. Your pump wouldnt develope pressure if its drawing air. Mike
 

mllud

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Aron : I believe Your pump should be 6 to 10 pounds. there are several places in my trouble shooting guide that refer to air being drawn into the system. as a cause to similar symptoms a yours. check where your fuel line connects to the tank. you could also pull the pickup tube out and inspect it. Your pump wouldnt develope pressure if its drawing air. Mike
Tazza the primer bulb wuold definately be a quick way to eliminate any problem on the low side of the injector pump. Arent most low pressure pumps 6 to 10 lbs. Mike
 

Tazza

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Tazza the primer bulb wuold definately be a quick way to eliminate any problem on the low side of the injector pump. Arent most low pressure pumps 6 to 10 lbs. Mike
I really don't know...... I actually thought it was higher than that. I know some people that have issues like this have installed electric fuel pumps that took care of the low pressure problem. I remember Ken saying that his NH machine has an electric pump.
 

mllud

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I really don't know...... I actually thought it was higher than that. I know some people that have issues like this have installed electric fuel pumps that took care of the low pressure problem. I remember Ken saying that his NH machine has an electric pump.
They do have a pump that feeds the injector pump. 12 volt electric. My lx model has a hand pump to get the injector pump primed the Ls models have electric Mike
 
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jackel440

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They do have a pump that feeds the injector pump. 12 volt electric. My lx model has a hand pump to get the injector pump primed the Ls models have electric Mike
my pump shows no pressure untill i slow crimp the hose off and then it will climb to about 5 psi.shouldn't it have the 10 psi when it is running or not?even when it is tacked all the way up?
 

Tazza

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my pump shows no pressure untill i slow crimp the hose off and then it will climb to about 5 psi.shouldn't it have the 10 psi when it is running or not?even when it is tacked all the way up?
I feel it should have more than 5psi.... Even 10 seems low to me but i really don't know what is *normal* for an electric fuel pump to deliver.
 

skidsteer.ca

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I feel it should have more than 5psi.... Even 10 seems low to me but i really don't know what is *normal* for an electric fuel pump to deliver.
The NH service manual for my 160 does not list a pressure spec for the electric pump. If it runs and pumps fuel with no bubbles to the injection pump inlet it is supposed to be ok.
Does the flow volume look about right? Solid streem out the hose, shooting 18 to 24" or so?
Submerge the hose in a pail of fuel and run the pump to test for air bubbles. Can also be done with the fuel return line from the engine. There should be no air.
Ken
I went back and put a 80 psi max guage on mine blocked the hose out of the pump with the guage. It showed 3 psi. A 80 psi guage could be off a few lbs down that low on the scale, but 5 psi is likely normal. Mine is running fine
Ken
 
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jackel440

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The NH service manual for my 160 does not list a pressure spec for the electric pump. If it runs and pumps fuel with no bubbles to the injection pump inlet it is supposed to be ok.
Does the flow volume look about right? Solid streem out the hose, shooting 18 to 24" or so?
Submerge the hose in a pail of fuel and run the pump to test for air bubbles. Can also be done with the fuel return line from the engine. There should be no air.
Ken
I went back and put a 80 psi max guage on mine blocked the hose out of the pump with the guage. It showed 3 psi. A 80 psi guage could be off a few lbs down that low on the scale, but 5 psi is likely normal. Mine is running fine
Ken
IT'S FIXED !!!!!!!!!!! Alright I called about a pump and the local NH dealer told me that the pumps normaly either work or they don't.He never checked the pressure on one before.I called the dealer that i got it from(they are an hour behind me)talked to the head service manager.Told him what i had tried ,and what i had told him on the presssure that i could barely get out of the pump.He told me that since it is a return system there isn't alot of psi,but i should see 3-5 when its keyed on.He also said there is no spec on pressure from NH.I told him how it was losing power,but would idle fine.He told me he got 2 brand new 180 in saturday unloaded them from the truck and they did the exact same thing.The little filter before the pump was iced over. He told me to replace it. well when i got home took the filter off and sure enough the cloth filter was covered with ice.Put a new one on ,and she runs like a new one. I moved some snow ,man it worked awesome!!!! I couldn't believe after all the things i did,salamander on it,pulling the seperater filter and such that it was that little filter down inside froze.you could see fuel in it,and it would movethe air bubble around.Oh well its always the simple things.I figured since the water seprator filter wasn't froze the other one would be ok. Case closed LMAO Thanks Guys Aaron
 

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