backhoe attachments for skid steers

[CUT_TLB]

Long post....and my first one! I am considering the purchase of a SS, and I have some questions. I have no experience with SSs, operating or owning, but I have lots with compact tractors w/ backhoe attachments and some with mini-excavators. I have read thru old threads that mention using a b/h on a SS, so I am trying not to cover too much old ground here. I install b/hs on tractors, after custom fabbing subframes. I have been asked to install one on a SS. If I do it, I will buy a SS to get experience and test the resulting installation and operation. > accross the brands, how standard is the QA mechanism? If I buy a Bobcat 743, will it attach to the same implements that a Mustang can, for example? > assuming the SS can lift the weight of the hoe (1200# for mine), are there other capacity concerns? I only need 5-6 GPM hyd flow. > when operating a b/h with the SS, is there a way to move the SS while in the hoe seat? It seems like a nightmare to have to get off the hoe and crawl into the "cage" every time you need to move the SS, esp when trenching. On my tractors, I can reach around and creep the tractor, or drag it with the hoe dipper. > do most b/hs attached to SSs use some kind of bracket to strengthen the attachment to the loader or frame? (I saw your post on this subj, TAZZA.)

 

[skidsteer.ca]

The QA that Bobcat pioneered is the standard in the industry for the past 10 years on most every compeditor. Some for longer but you have to be carful here. ( I do believe Mustang and NH were some of the last ones to give up their own system. Also industry standard QA's can be bought to update the older loaders but of course adds to the overall cost)
The best bet is to get a spare attachment plate that you would weld on to a bucket or other attachment ($60 to $100) and take it shopping with you.
Also some loader brands require minor fine tuning to fit from one to the other. the older case 1845 used to have narrow lock pins that required extra wide holes in the bottom of the attachment plate. etc.
The big snag with switching hoes between brands is that everyone seem to have their own system to stabilize the bucket tilt cylinder. Bobcat used to use 2" trailer balls on their older 909 & 911 hoes from the early 90's back. After that they came out the 709 with a massive hook on the ouside of the loader boom. These hooks also serve to hold the loader boom up 6" to increase the clearance under the BH stabilizers.
The best system I seen was to ditch all the hooks and ball and use a quick release 3pt hitch top link. Extra mounts could be easily fabbed and it could be adjusted for various loaders, was plenty strong and could be adusted for length.
On the older Bobcats you can reach the steering levers from the hoe seat and move yourself provided you did not set the park brake b4 climbing out of the cab. Sometimes if the digging is tough you need the park brake to help hold the machine though. The Bobcats from 94 on have a electric PB that can be released from the hoe seat.
My new Holland LS 160 has a hand park brake beside the seat, so on that machine you would have to climb back in the cab to release it. I generally don't have to use the brake though, I try to get to my depth and do most of my digging pulling more up then towards myself. So this one really depends on the loader brand.
As for hyd flow most every loader will pump all the oil you need at a relatively low engine rpm, say 1/4 to 1/3 throttle.
Compared to a TLB a skidsteer can operate a hoe on a fair bit softer ground if equiped with tracks.
A 1200 lb hoe will be a big load for a 743, 751 753 but you can manage provided you don't want to back up more then a shallow incline, or you may have to counterweight the rear.
Ken

 

[Tazza]

The QA that Bobcat pioneered is the standard in the industry for the past 10 years on most every compeditor. Some for longer but you have to be carful here. ( I do believe Mustang and NH were some of the last ones to give up their own system. Also industry standard QA's can be bought to update the older loaders but of course adds to the overall cost)
The best bet is to get a spare attachment plate that you would weld on to a bucket or other attachment ($60 to $100) and take it shopping with you.
Also some loader brands require minor fine tuning to fit from one to the other. the older case 1845 used to have narrow lock pins that required extra wide holes in the bottom of the attachment plate. etc.
The big snag with switching hoes between brands is that everyone seem to have their own system to stabilize the bucket tilt cylinder. Bobcat used to use 2" trailer balls on their older 909 & 911 hoes from the early 90's back. After that they came out the 709 with a massive hook on the ouside of the loader boom. These hooks also serve to hold the loader boom up 6" to increase the clearance under the BH stabilizers.
The best system I seen was to ditch all the hooks and ball and use a quick release 3pt hitch top link. Extra mounts could be easily fabbed and it could be adjusted for various loaders, was plenty strong and could be adusted for length.
On the older Bobcats you can reach the steering levers from the hoe seat and move yourself provided you did not set the park brake b4 climbing out of the cab. Sometimes if the digging is tough you need the park brake to help hold the machine though. The Bobcats from 94 on have a electric PB that can be released from the hoe seat.
My new Holland LS 160 has a hand park brake beside the seat, so on that machine you would have to climb back in the cab to release it. I generally don't have to use the brake though, I try to get to my depth and do most of my digging pulling more up then towards myself. So this one really depends on the loader brand.
As for hyd flow most every loader will pump all the oil you need at a relatively low engine rpm, say 1/4 to 1/3 throttle.
Compared to a TLB a skidsteer can operate a hoe on a fair bit softer ground if equiped with tracks.
A 1200 lb hoe will be a big load for a 743, 751 753 but you can manage provided you don't want to back up more then a shallow incline, or you may have to counterweight the rear.
Ken

Ken beat me to it, he explained it very well too!
There is no reason why you can't make a hoe that fits a tractor fit a SSL, just hook up the 2 hoses and work out a mounting which MUST be tied back to the frame of the machine or you will be thrown all around. You will need to hop out of the chair and climb into the cab to move, there is no way around that unless you get a different style hoe with controls that sit in the cab.

 

[skidsteer.ca]

Ken beat me to it, he explained it very well too!
There is no reason why you can't make a hoe that fits a tractor fit a SSL, just hook up the 2 hoses and work out a mounting which MUST be tied back to the frame of the machine or you will be thrown all around. You will need to hop out of the chair and climb into the cab to move, there is no way around that unless you get a different style hoe with controls that sit in the cab.

Actually both of my Bobcat loaders ( 2000 773, 1995 853) I could move the loader from the backhoe seat just by reaching behind myself and pushing the steering levers.
Generally I just use the BH stabizers to anchor myself while digging unless the going is really tough, then I set the park brake too. The newer Bobcats from 94 up have the electric park brake that can be released (reached) from the backhoe seat. (you can't unlock the lift or tilt, but you can unlock the wheels with the seat bar still up) So moving the machine is quite easy from the hoe imo. However with other brands of loaders, like my New Holland the only way to set or release the park brake is from the seat, so weather you can move depends on 1 if you need the PB and 2 if you can operate it from the hoe seat or not.
I have used a hoe without the top hooks connected but it sucks and the hoe kept leaning away from the loader which had to corrected every 5 minutes.
Happy Halloween
Ken

 

[CUT_TLB]

Actually both of my Bobcat loaders ( 2000 773, 1995 853) I could move the loader from the backhoe seat just by reaching behind myself and pushing the steering levers.
Generally I just use the BH stabizers to anchor myself while digging unless the going is really tough, then I set the park brake too. The newer Bobcats from 94 up have the electric park brake that can be released (reached) from the backhoe seat. (you can't unlock the lift or tilt, but you can unlock the wheels with the seat bar still up) So moving the machine is quite easy from the hoe imo. However with other brands of loaders, like my New Holland the only way to set or release the park brake is from the seat, so weather you can move depends on 1 if you need the PB and 2 if you can operate it from the hoe seat or not.
I have used a hoe without the top hooks connected but it sucks and the hoe kept leaning away from the loader which had to corrected every 5 minutes.
Happy Halloween
Ken

Thanks for the very informative replies, Ken and Tazza. I had not really considered using a SS-to-3pt adapter. It seems to me that that approach would put the hoe farther out front of the machine. Using hoes on the 3pt hitch on tractors is a dicey approach, so I have always favored rigidly-mounted subframes. Using hoes on the 3pt hitch is very hard on the tractor and it results in mounting it considerably farther out back than with good subframes. Anyway, tell me more about the "top hooks" and other strengthening methods used to support the hoe on the loader. Can you post pix? As for lifting capacities, I went to the Bobcat site and chose common SSs that could lift at least 1300#. All modern SSs seem to have plenty of hyd flow. I see tipping as a potential issue, however. SSs around here (NorCal) are very common and usually owned by contractors it seems.

 

[skidsteer.ca]

Thanks for the very informative replies, Ken and Tazza. I had not really considered using a SS-to-3pt adapter. It seems to me that that approach would put the hoe farther out front of the machine. Using hoes on the 3pt hitch on tractors is a dicey approach, so I have always favored rigidly-mounted subframes. Using hoes on the 3pt hitch is very hard on the tractor and it results in mounting it considerably farther out back than with good subframes. Anyway, tell me more about the "top hooks" and other strengthening methods used to support the hoe on the loader. Can you post pix? As for lifting capacities, I went to the Bobcat site and chose common SSs that could lift at least 1300#. All modern SSs seem to have plenty of hyd flow. I see tipping as a potential issue, however. SSs around here (NorCal) are very common and usually owned by contractors it seems.

I did nt mean to use a ss to 3pt adapter.
You would weld a ss QA plate to the backhoe so it would lock on the ss just like a bucket.
However the hoe can still wobble back a forth becasue there is nothing to steady the bucket dump cylinder.
I suggest using the top link from a tractor 3pt hitch as a link between the hoe and the ss frame. I'll post so picks of the Bobcat hoe setup later today hopefully.
Ken

 

[Tazza]

I did nt mean to use a ss to 3pt adapter.
You would weld a ss QA plate to the backhoe so it would lock on the ss just like a bucket.
However the hoe can still wobble back a forth becasue there is nothing to steady the bucket dump cylinder.
I suggest using the top link from a tractor 3pt hitch as a link between the hoe and the ss frame. I'll post so picks of the Bobcat hoe setup later today hopefully.
Ken

Have a qquiz at the following link, it shows a home made upper attach setup.
http://www.skidsteerforum.com/DesktopDefault.aspx?tabid=52&gallerypage=0&path=home%20made%20Backhoe%20Upper%20Stabilizer%20brackets

 

[Fishfiles]

Have a qquiz at the following link, it shows a home made upper attach setup.
http://www.skidsteerforum.com/DesktopDefault.aspx?tabid=52&gallerypage=0&path=home%20made%20Backhoe%20Upper%20Stabilizer%20brackets

Any one interested in buying a Bobcat backhoe attachment , very little use on it , New Orleans Area

 

[skidsteer.ca]

The QA that Bobcat pioneered is the standard in the industry for the past 10 years on most every compeditor. Some for longer but you have to be carful here. ( I do believe Mustang and NH were some of the last ones to give up their own system. Also industry standard QA's can be bought to update the older loaders but of course adds to the overall cost)
The best bet is to get a spare attachment plate that you would weld on to a bucket or other attachment ($60 to $100) and take it shopping with you.
Also some loader brands require minor fine tuning to fit from one to the other. the older case 1845 used to have narrow lock pins that required extra wide holes in the bottom of the attachment plate. etc.
The big snag with switching hoes between brands is that everyone seem to have their own system to stabilize the bucket tilt cylinder. Bobcat used to use 2" trailer balls on their older 909 & 911 hoes from the early 90's back. After that they came out the 709 with a massive hook on the ouside of the loader boom. These hooks also serve to hold the loader boom up 6" to increase the clearance under the BH stabilizers.
The best system I seen was to ditch all the hooks and ball and use a quick release 3pt hitch top link. Extra mounts could be easily fabbed and it could be adjusted for various loaders, was plenty strong and could be adusted for length.
On the older Bobcats you can reach the steering levers from the hoe seat and move yourself provided you did not set the park brake b4 climbing out of the cab. Sometimes if the digging is tough you need the park brake to help hold the machine though. The Bobcats from 94 on have a electric PB that can be released from the hoe seat.
My new Holland LS 160 has a hand park brake beside the seat, so on that machine you would have to climb back in the cab to release it. I generally don't have to use the brake though, I try to get to my depth and do most of my digging pulling more up then towards myself. So this one really depends on the loader brand.
As for hyd flow most every loader will pump all the oil you need at a relatively low engine rpm, say 1/4 to 1/3 throttle.
Compared to a TLB a skidsteer can operate a hoe on a fair bit softer ground if equiped with tracks.
A 1200 lb hoe will be a big load for a 743, 751 753 but you can manage provided you don't want to back up more then a shallow incline, or you may have to counterweight the rear.
Ken

This is the current bobcat system. You pick up the hoe in this position, lock the QA handles down then lift it up and over the hooks on the loader, then let the hoe tilt forward until it catches the hooks from the rear side. The lock handles on each side of the backhoe (not the QA) prevent the hoe from moving back, which effectively lock the bucket tilt cylinder and also holds the loader boom up 4 to 5" for better ground clearence under the hoe.
Ken

 

[CUT_TLB]

This is the current bobcat system. You pick up the hoe in this position, lock the QA handles down then lift it up and over the hooks on the loader, then let the hoe tilt forward until it catches the hooks from the rear side. The lock handles on each side of the backhoe (not the QA) prevent the hoe from moving back, which effectively lock the bucket tilt cylinder and also holds the loader boom up 4 to 5" for better ground clearence under the hoe.
Ken

Nice pix, Ken. I see how that works. I also saw your custom setup, Tazza. Good ideas there. Thx for posting. Friday I got my first oppy to get seat time in a SS. It was a Mustang 2044 (49hp, almost 5K#) set up with a hydraulic breaker. I did about 2 hrs and my impression as a tractor guy is: nice engine, very manuverable, very good fwd/rev control. Not so good was the foot pedal operation of the boom and curl. Clearly some of that is due to being used to hand controls for same. Anyway, now I think I see why b/hs have to be secured to the frame. The bkt curl cyls and attachment support don't seem to be all that stable for something as heavy as a hoe. Even the hyd breaker was hard to precisely position with the curl, and it prob weighed only 600# or so. BTW, we (the land owner and I) had a very difficult time trying to break up an old slab and stem wall. Not the right tool for the job, apparently.

 

[skidsteer.ca]

Nice pix, Ken. I see how that works. I also saw your custom setup, Tazza. Good ideas there. Thx for posting. Friday I got my first oppy to get seat time in a SS. It was a Mustang 2044 (49hp, almost 5K#) set up with a hydraulic breaker. I did about 2 hrs and my impression as a tractor guy is: nice engine, very manuverable, very good fwd/rev control. Not so good was the foot pedal operation of the boom and curl. Clearly some of that is due to being used to hand controls for same. Anyway, now I think I see why b/hs have to be secured to the frame. The bkt curl cyls and attachment support don't seem to be all that stable for something as heavy as a hoe. Even the hyd breaker was hard to precisely position with the curl, and it prob weighed only 600# or so. BTW, we (the land owner and I) had a very difficult time trying to break up an old slab and stem wall. Not the right tool for the job, apparently.

You get used to the peddles, my Dad hated it at first and let me run it, But he gave in this summer do to the gear visabilty, he was popping 100 to 500 lb rocks out of his pasture land in prep for plowing. From a tractor seat you could never see what your trying to do.
I found my leg muscles would get sore after a couple hours for the first month or 2, then I never looked back.
How thick was the concrete you broke up?
Ken

 

[CUT_TLB]

You get used to the peddles, my Dad hated it at first and let me run it, But he gave in this summer do to the gear visabilty, he was popping 100 to 500 lb rocks out of his pasture land in prep for plowing. From a tractor seat you could never see what your trying to do.
I found my leg muscles would get sore after a couple hours for the first month or 2, then I never looked back.
How thick was the concrete you broke up?
Ken

Ken, the concrete stem walls were just 8" thick with #4 rebars. I was very disappointed with the results of the hyd breaker. I am thinking that the owner should either rent an ind compressor and pneumatic jack hammer or cut it up with diamond saw first. On the other hand, it makes one totally appreciate a concrete house (as mine is).

 

[skidsteer.ca]

Ken, the concrete stem walls were just 8" thick with #4 rebars. I was very disappointed with the results of the hyd breaker. I am thinking that the owner should either rent an ind compressor and pneumatic jack hammer or cut it up with diamond saw first. On the other hand, it makes one totally appreciate a concrete house (as mine is).

Of the breakers we sell, the smallest one is only rated for 4" concrete and the medium one for 8", largest is 14". I have never had the oportunity to use a breaker so I have no first hand knowledge. But I would guess the job was too large for the machine or the breaker was not performing at full capacity.
Ken

 

[Tazza]

Of the breakers we sell, the smallest one is only rated for 4" concrete and the medium one for 8", largest is 14". I have never had the oportunity to use a breaker so I have no first hand knowledge. But I would guess the job was too large for the machine or the breaker was not performing at full capacity.
Ken

Hanging on to a concrete saw is NOT a fun job. Even cutting a concrete driveway is tough never mind holding the saw in the air cutting a wall. I'd get the breaker checked. As ken said, it should be pretty darn powerful. It would have far more power than an air powered one as the air one would be like 40-60lb but the one on the skid steer would be much more powerful.
The only thing i have heard about them is to try and avoid dry firing it. Make sure the tip has a load on it before operating it. I too have never used one.

 

[Idoitall]

Hanging on to a concrete saw is NOT a fun job. Even cutting a concrete driveway is tough never mind holding the saw in the air cutting a wall. I'd get the breaker checked. As ken said, it should be pretty darn powerful. It would have far more power than an air powered one as the air one would be like 40-60lb but the one on the skid steer would be much more powerful.
The only thing i have heard about them is to try and avoid dry firing it. Make sure the tip has a load on it before operating it. I too have never used one.

I have been around a lot of breakers at work, but they were on either a back-hoe or a track-hoe. These things seemed to work great. They sure beat the h... out of the old sledge hammer and saw.

I was wondering if the aux. flow rate of the machine had a big effect on a breaker performance. Seems like the bigger the breaker the more flow would be needed to work at 100%. Is this were the hi-flow machines come in? Am I all wrong here?

 

[Tazza]

I have been around a lot of breakers at work, but they were on either a back-hoe or a track-hoe. These things seemed to work great. They sure beat the h... out of the old sledge hammer and saw.

I was wondering if the aux. flow rate of the machine had a big effect on a breaker performance. Seems like the bigger the breaker the more flow would be needed to work at 100%. Is this were the hi-flow machines come in? Am I all wrong here?

Good question, i wasn't sure if it had to do with the power of it it just slowed the time it took to cycle. I still don't fully understand how they work! All i do know is they have a nitrogen charge.

 

[skidsteer.ca]

Good question, i wasn't sure if it had to do with the power of it it just slowed the time it took to cycle. I still don't fully understand how they work! All i do know is they have a nitrogen charge.

Actually our biggest breaker lists a 21 gpm max ,small one is 4 to 8, then 8 to 15 and 15 to 21gpm. so hiflow seems unnecesary. I'm sure though that hi flow ones are available for large frame machines from other mfgs.
I seen a 330 cat hoe pounding Granite bedrock and that thing was fairly aggressive. Our granite makes concrete look pretty soft too. No doubt the large the machine, the more work that can be done.
Ken

 

[Eric]

Ken, the concrete stem walls were just 8" thick with #4 rebars. I was very disappointed with the results of the hyd breaker. I am thinking that the owner should either rent an ind compressor and pneumatic jack hammer or cut it up with diamond saw first. On the other hand, it makes one totally appreciate a concrete house (as mine is).

Using a breaker isn't just point it on the concrete and pull the trigger. Well it can be, but you wont make good progress. There is an art to it.
How deep and large was the footing? How thick was the slab? Was there rebar in the slab?
When breaking up a slab, I will start at an edge, or I will make a relief cut with the breaker (break out a line all the way through the slab). This then gives you a weak edge to break behind. Then you keep riding that edge as you work your way backwards. The weak edge allows a relief point for the broken concrete to release to. If you don't do it this way then everything stays some what interlocked and you end up fighting with it longer than necessary.
Also, dont bite off more than the breaker can chew. With a 4 inch slab bites should be abot 12 to 18 inches unless it has rebar. Then you will be breaking up the entire slab to relase it from the rebar. The thicker the slab the smaller the bites.
When breaking up a footing I will make a relief cut about every 5 feet as far as I can reach with the breaker through the footing. I also cut as much rebar as I can with the breaker (I use chisel points so this makes it easier to break rebar). Then I pry and snap the 5 foot section out. Sometimes you need to cut the remaining rebar.
Sometimes if the footing is locked in by the soil, it helps to loosen the soil with a bucket or the breaker bit adjacent to the footing.
Maybe I should put a video tutorial together and post it on youtube?

 

[skidsteer.ca]

Using a breaker isn't just point it on the concrete and pull the trigger. Well it can be, but you wont make good progress. There is an art to it.
How deep and large was the footing? How thick was the slab? Was there rebar in the slab?
When breaking up a slab, I will start at an edge, or I will make a relief cut with the breaker (break out a line all the way through the slab). This then gives you a weak edge to break behind. Then you keep riding that edge as you work your way backwards. The weak edge allows a relief point for the broken concrete to release to. If you don't do it this way then everything stays some what interlocked and you end up fighting with it longer than necessary.
Also, dont bite off more than the breaker can chew. With a 4 inch slab bites should be abot 12 to 18 inches unless it has rebar. Then you will be breaking up the entire slab to relase it from the rebar. The thicker the slab the smaller the bites.
When breaking up a footing I will make a relief cut about every 5 feet as far as I can reach with the breaker through the footing. I also cut as much rebar as I can with the breaker (I use chisel points so this makes it easier to break rebar). Then I pry and snap the 5 foot section out. Sometimes you need to cut the remaining rebar.
Sometimes if the footing is locked in by the soil, it helps to loosen the soil with a bucket or the breaker bit adjacent to the footing.
Maybe I should put a video tutorial together and post it on youtube?

Eric
That would be great/
Also have you heard of mud jacking?
I had a fellow contact me with a conrete mixer/concrete pump attachment that says they bore 1 1/2 inch holes in frost heaved concrete slabs that are no longer level and "pump" them back into position. Any thoughts on this?
www.wemudjack.com
Is his site
Ken