mikorne Joined: 04 Jan 2016 Total Posts: 1 99 Bobcat 863 not starting Posted: 01-04-2016 10:46 PM I am by no means a mechanic and my skillset is pretty much limited to small engine repair and occasional car repairs. So, I would say I'm pretty much "green" to heavy machinery and diesel engines. That in mind, my 863 with a Duetz engine has never given any issues until the other day I started it up & ran it for about 5 minutes. I backed up a small incline, and when I got on level ground, the machine just cut out and won't start back up. I didn't notice any dark smoke when it was running for the 5 minutes prior to cutting out. Now it just turns over. First thing I checked my fuel and oil. Added fresh diesel and pulled the fuel filter to make sure there wasn't any water in it. Fuel bulb was hard and sent fuel out to where the filter is attached when I compressed it. This is where I've stopped and figured I'd pose my issue in hopes there could be a few simple things I could do/check before I shell out $$ for I'm sure to be an expensive mobile mechanic. mmsllc is not online. Last active: 1/5/2016 12:50:37 PM mmsllc Joined: 29 Dec 2015 Total Posts: 24 Re: 99 Bobcat 863 not starting Posted: 01-05-2016 01:37 AM First of all, WELCOME to the forum. Second of all, don't sweat not being a mechanic. Also, let me say this, BOBCAT 863's are my favorite machines. I've used them to tear down houses & push 20,000 pound machinery around our yard, too. They are far from a small capability machine. The turbo-charged DUETZ engine is also far from a slouch!! (I think it puts out around 69 - 74 HP!!) * DID THE MACHINE LOW/ OUT OF FUEL?? Most BOBCAT machines are VERY sensitive to low fuel levels. So, be sure to add fuel to the tank or even top it off to be sure we know what we are dealing with. (FYI, they hold around 20 gallons) Then locate the fuel filter housing & GENTLY open the small flat head bleeder screw. Squeeze the fuel primer a few times & watch for air bubbles to escape from that screw. DID ANY AIR COME OUT?? If no air has come out in the fuel stream, GENTLY TIGHTEN THE BLEEDER VALVE NOW!! If some air did come out and now only fuel comes out, then most likely the machine was run low / out on fuel. The good news from that is the engine should start very soon with just a little more cranking. * TRY TO START THE MACHINE!! Push the throttle to about halfway while trying to start. (As it starts & runs, be sure to pull back on the throttle slowly once you are sure the engine is running good.) Did you hear the famous "CLICK" sound when you turned the key to the "ON" position? If so, that is another VERY GOOD sign. Did the engine start?? Please let me know if it started. If it did not, just let us know. (Last FYI, there is a repair forum section for this type of issue. If you can move the thread there, it will get a lot more attention to all members for even more help, if need be. It is located a little further down & Is titled "general repair".) ANYTHING WORTH DOING IS WORTH DOING RIGHT, OR NOT AT ALL!!! IF YOU DON'T MIND, IT DOESN'T MATTER!!! Tazza is not online. Last active: 1/5/2016 6:03:23 AM Tazza Top 25 Poster Forum Moderator Joined: 08 Dec 2004 Total Posts: 13138 Re: 99 Bobcat 863 not starting Posted: 01-05-2016 05:39 AM If that doesn't fix it, time to take the rocker cover off and check the push rods. If they look like an S, your timing belt slipped or broke. Bobcat 763 burntSadbut i'm working on it!, 04 S150 with air and a smooshed cab, S250 turbo.
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Thanks for the welcome and info mmsllc & Tazza...... So, I went back to the fuel filter bleeder screw and loosened it, but nothing came out until I removed the screw completely. Minimal fuel came out, so I squeezed the primer bulb a few times and I got a small and inconsistent bit of fuel to come out. I repeated this a few times, only to get the same result of a small amount of fuel coming out and any type of flow would stop until I squeezed the primer again. I put the bleeder screw back in and gave it a crank and it started up with some fairly heavy smoke. It ran for about 60 seconds and died like it had done originally. I repeated the bleeder screw/primer scenario again, but this time I didn't have any luck with it starting back up. Pretty obvious it's some type of fuel issue.
SkidRoe
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Just a shot in the dark, but is the pickup tube in your fuel tank in good shape? If it has a crack in it (which happens and your machine is getting to that point in it's life), it can wreak all sorts of havoc.
FWIW - SR
7LBSSMALLIE
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welcome. lets start from top. A? no start.. b. cranks but. wont hit.. 1. break fuel injection pipes have them face rear of unit. ? are they spitting fuel. should have a large pulse. most likely scenario for a deutz not running A. pick up tube b .fuel shutoff solenoid. c timining belt. so how to address T/S verify fuel delivery. no fuel no run
If you are only getting a little fuel from the bleeder screw when you squeeze the bulb, then the problem is between the fuel pick up tube to the bleeder screw. I would suggest inspecting / replacing the fuel pick up tube inside of the fuel tank. I've done a couple on the 863's & they are really FUN to do. I would suggest removing the right rear tire & the small metal cover to help you see anything. The theory of doing the job is SIMPLE, but reaching & replacing is a major PITA. Best of luck to you!!!
So I disconnected the fuel line before the fuel pump to verify fuel flow from the tank. Squeezing the primer gave me a steady flow, so I will assume that would rule out the fuel pick up in the tank. I also used a clear line after the fuel filter to verify no air in the line and proper fuel after the filter up to injectors. I've bled the filter several times with zero luck. One thing I have noticed is I'm not even getting smoke out of the exhaust when it's just turning over.
Timing belt OK? Changed fuel filter to rule it out? Verify fuel shutoff solenoid working? Check engine oil level to not be overfilled to rule out leaking transfer?
With that update, try to observe the fuel shutdown solenoid moves when the key is turned on & off = have a helper give you a hand so you can watch it move. While you have a helper available, try to start it with your hand up to the muffler outlet. While trying to start the engine, you should be able to feel air puffing out of the exhaust. Can you feel anything?
7LBSSMALLIE
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often overlooked is the fuel lift pump screen. 8mm bolt slide off cover. clean screen. should be done on peridioc maint. quick tip , while on subject. rpm wont climb . hit squeezy ball if it does indicates bad lift pump. dskill in oil bad lift pump. oil in dskill bad lift pump (seen that one about three times ) definite head scratch, until you know .
So, I think I've pretty much confirmed the issues that have been advised to check. Proper fluid levels, new fuel filter and bled, confirmed power to fuel shut off solenoid. I have a clear fuel line attached from the filter to my 1st fuel injector, so I've confirmed fuel to the 1st injector. I couldn't get a wrench on the top side injectors, so I cracked the bottoms instead. When cranking the motor, I don't get any fuel out like I would expect it to. Should come p*ssing out when I crank it over, but doesn't. ..... Anything else I should check?
I'm sure this has gotten pretty frustrating. I would remove one fuel line at a time in order to check for a blockage of fuel flow. Sounds like you already confirmed the fuel system works up to the point where fuel comes out of the squeeze primer. Now, connect it back up & take each hose AFTER that hose loose to confirm fuel flow through each of them. This should help narrow down WHERE the blockage / restriction is. So, pull the hose off of the fuel pump (it is next in line) then see if the fuel flows throw that hose. If it does, then reconnect it. Then remove the OTHER hose that comes out of the fuel pump. Does fuel come out of that hose? If so, reconnect that hose & continue in that manner. I'm guessing that will lead you straight to the issue in about 15 minutes of time. Try that out, it will be far more methodical than jumping around. I hope to hear back very soon.
bobbie-g
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Mikorn, thx for all the feedback to the forum! I had an issue on my 863 with a wimpy fuel cutoff solenoid. Sometimes it would start, sometimes not. Always had good 12v to solenoid wires (used an insulation-piercing probe). Here's how I verified a wimpy solenoid: Had the wife crank it over when it wouldn't start. Whacked the solenoid housing with pliers and it started instantly. That was repeatable, and after 3 or 4 such events, replaced the solenoid assembly (15 year old grandkid did it, all by himself, his hands fit better in there anyhow). No repeat issues in the past hundred hours.
---Bobbie GThe solenoids can get weak that way. I've done that before on an air intake valve = IAC. It is not overly technical, but it works good in those cases. It could be a bad shut down solenoid, but I would pull that solenoid in with wire & try starting it. There is a 'timer' on the solenoid too. If it goes bad, it will start hard or not at all. The timer looks like just another relay, but is wired inline with the fuel shutdown solenoid.Mikorn, thx for all the feedback to the forum! I had an issue on my 863 with a wimpy fuel cutoff solenoid. Sometimes it would start, sometimes not. Always had good 12v to solenoid wires (used an insulation-piercing probe). Here's how I verified a wimpy solenoid: Had the wife crank it over when it wouldn't start. Whacked the solenoid housing with pliers and it started instantly. That was repeatable, and after 3 or 4 such events, replaced the solenoid assembly (15 year old grandkid did it, all by himself, his hands fit better in there anyhow). No repeat issues in the past hundred hours.
rodbuilder
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1. Pull off the rubber fuel line after the primer bulb and see if there's fuel coming out it when you crank the engine. If there isn't, you have a blockage at the fuel pickup inside the tank, or the transfer pump is bad! Not good!!! 2. If you do have fuel there, loosen one of the injector lines at the injector and see of fuel escapes when you crank the engine. If you don't you have a problem in the injector pump! Before you try to light the engine again look at the fuel shutoff solenoid and its associated linkage to the injection pump. Have someone else turn the key on and off and determine whether the solenoid is pulling on the (vertical) injector pump lever. Without that action your Bobcat will NEVER start. A new shut-off solenoid from Bobcat is an astounding $208!!!! But a simpler and permanent solution to a solenoid problem is to replace it with a manual shutoff setup like the older Bobcats have. NAPA sells a nylon-lined Morse cable for about $53 and they also have the little gizmo you'll need to attach the cable to your injection pump. When I do this I mount the cable up by where your knee is when your sitting in the machine. It's simple. It will NEVER go bad. And it's cheap as dirt! And it's a great theft-deterrent!!! 3. If your solenoid is working and you have fuel at those places, remove the air cleaner and squirt just s WHISP of ether in the air cleaner and try to fire the engine. If it won't fire you do NOT have a fuel problem and will have to look for another problem with your machine.
I pulled the fuel line from the tank off before the primer bulb. Attached another line to it from a 5 gallon can of fuel, primed it and bled it with no luck. Is this sufficient to rule out an issue with the pickup line in the tank or not?
Yeah, that rules out the fuel line up to the primer bulb & everything associated with the fuel tank, too.
SkidRoe
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I wouldn't necessarily say that all your fuel lines are good - it tells you that you have more problems than just fuel lines.
Cheers - SR
Correct. Not all lines have been verified by excluding them, yet. I've tried to suggest removing them to be able to flow fuel through them or to blow air through them.
So I've ruled out fuel lines from the tank to the primer. Primer to the fuel pump. Fuel pump to the filter. The last line I get fuel flow is on the outbound side of the filter. This line connects to a hard line to the fuel injectors. Disconnected each line on the injectors with no fuel confirmation when trying to start. No pulse of fuel coming out. Reading back through some of the advice about the fuel shutoff solenoid being a possible culprit. Some folks have recommended bypassing the solenoid to verify this as the issue. The problem I'm having with that, is I can't visibly locate anything that looks like the described solenoid or pictures I've looked at on my machine. Below my alternator and above my linkage on the right side I have a square relay or some sort that has 2 wires with verified power. I've unscrewed it and removed it and it has a 3 prong plug that it disconnects from. This might be a little easier if I could attach a photo or two for some confirmation.