M700 rebuild and restore project

HanSolo · Sep 24, 2012

The seller provided a roll-back flatbed tow truck so after I put on some decent wheels/tires we pulled it on with the winch. Got it out to my property and dropped it off easily. I started by vacuuming out three buckets of leaf litter and dirt from the drivers compartment and engine bay. I noted that the fuel lines are toast. First priority was to get the crank turned over by hand. I pulled the plugs, loosened up the oil cooler and moved aside so I could get a pry bar down by the u-joint. I put a little fresh engine oil in the cylinders (per service manual) and started moving the crank with the bar on the cooling fins. Just a little resistance in the beginning but it smoothed out nicely after a couple of turns. Enough that I was able to turn the crank with my hand. I lubed the u-joint while it was exposed and also degreased and cleaned the oil cooler. I then put in a fully charged battery and tried to turn the engine over. After several attempts with the starter just clicking - it then just made a wirling noise so I figured the solenoid was gone. This morning I dropped the starter off for re-build and got some 1/4" fuel hose, splices, clamps and in-line filter. The fuel pump may be bad but I'll know for sure when I get the hoses on. Did these 700 series machines all come with electric fuel pumps?

flyerdan · Sep 24, 2012

I'm sure they had a mechanical pump on top of the Wisconsin engine, mine has a block off plate there. It had an aftermarket electric pump on it when I got it. If you go that route you'll also need a fuel pressure regulator after it, if I recall correctly anything over 2 psi will cause flooding issues.

HanSolo · Sep 24, 2012

flyerdan said:
I'm sure they had a mechanical pump on top of the Wisconsin engine, mine has a block off plate there. It had an aftermarket electric pump on it when I got it. If you go that route you'll also need a fuel pressure regulator after it, if I recall correctly anything over 2 psi will cause flooding issues.

You are correct Flyerdan. The service manual says "720: The fuel pump is located on top of the cylinder block,... At full engine RPM correct pressure is 2 - 3 PSI." Mine has an electric FP mounted to a bracket. Looks like the PO pulled the 12V off the coil input lead. I'll look for something that matches the bracket and put a FPR between it and the carburetor.

SkidRoe · Sep 25, 2012

HanSolo said:
You are correct Flyerdan. The service manual says "720: The fuel pump is located on top of the cylinder block,... At full engine RPM correct pressure is 2 - 3 PSI." Mine has an electric FP mounted to a bracket. Looks like the PO pulled the 12V off the coil input lead. I'll look for something that matches the bracket and put a FPR between it and the carburetor.

Do some research, I put a low pressure fuel pump on my machine that is designed to work with carburetted engines. No regulator required. Been working great for over 2 years now.
Cheers,
SR

HanSolo · Sep 25, 2012

SkidRoe said:
Do some research, I put a low pressure fuel pump on my machine that is designed to work with carburetted engines. No regulator required. Been working great for over 2 years now.
Cheers,
SR

Okay. We got the engine to turn over using the rebuilt starter. Turns out the battery I was using wasn't very good and we jumped the machine with my buddy's Jetta. We did a series of starts without the plugs in a liberal use of WD40 in the cylinders. We then gauged compression 60-30-30-25. We suspect the cylinder with the high compression has more deposits. Although the electric fuel pump that came with it seemed to be trying - no output. So this morning I got up and purchased a new FP, FPR, fittings and fresh battery (low profile to clear the cab). I replaced the fuel lines from the belly pan level to carburetor, put the FP, FPR in-line, put the plugs back in and started the engine. It seems to want to fire but it's not getting enough spark. We looked at that last night and the spark is really weak. I'm going to get a fresh coil, points, condenser, rotor and cap. Those parts, coupled with the plugs and plug wires I've already got, will completely overhaul the ignition system. I'll have to check the point gap, timing, etc. so I guess it's time to relearn the timing light!

Kilroy2k1 · Sep 25, 2012

HanSolo said:
Okay. We got the engine to turn over using the rebuilt starter. Turns out the battery I was using wasn't very good and we jumped the machine with my buddy's Jetta. We did a series of starts without the plugs in a liberal use of WD40 in the cylinders. We then gauged compression 60-30-30-25. We suspect the cylinder with the high compression has more deposits. Although the electric fuel pump that came with it seemed to be trying - no output. So this morning I got up and purchased a new FP, FPR, fittings and fresh battery (low profile to clear the cab). I replaced the fuel lines from the belly pan level to carburetor, put the FP, FPR in-line, put the plugs back in and started the engine. It seems to want to fire but it's not getting enough spark. We looked at that last night and the spark is really weak. I'm going to get a fresh coil, points, condenser, rotor and cap. Those parts, coupled with the plugs and plug wires I've already got, will completely overhaul the ignition system. I'll have to check the point gap, timing, etc. so I guess it's time to relearn the timing light!

You might want to soak all those cylinders for a couple days with some ATF fluid or seafoam or something because those compression numbers are much too low. i would suspect 90-125 should be about right for those engines.
Tom.

HanSolo · Sep 25, 2012

Kilroy2k1 said:
You might want to soak all those cylinders for a couple days with some ATF fluid or seafoam or something because those compression numbers are much too low. i would suspect 90-125 should be about right for those engines.
Tom.

Copy that Kilroy. Unfortunately neither the Bobcat manual or the Wisconsin manual gives compression numbers. The Wisconsin manual states something like there being too many variables like wear, temperature, etc. and the numbers should be no greater than 10% from one another. On a different note - what grade oil should I being using in the hydraulic system on this 700? I can't find that in the service manual either.

HanSolo · Sep 26, 2012

HanSolo said:
Copy that Kilroy. Unfortunately neither the Bobcat manual or the Wisconsin manual gives compression numbers. The Wisconsin manual states something like there being too many variables like wear, temperature, etc. and the numbers should be no greater than 10% from one another. On a different note - what grade oil should I being using in the hydraulic system on this 700? I can't find that in the service manual either.

This morning I installed a new coil and the fresh spark plugs. Still not firing correctly when I start it. I took a close look at the distributor and it appears to have fresh points and condenser. However, the locking collar is loose and you can freely turn it by hand. No wonder the PO said the last time he tried to start the machine it was backfiring! I have a hot date with a timing light this weekend. Also, I'm soaking the cylinders with Seafoam as suggested. Hoping for higher compression after that and an motor oil/filter change.

HanSolo · Sep 28, 2012

HanSolo said:
This morning I installed a new coil and the fresh spark plugs. Still not firing correctly when I start it. I took a close look at the distributor and it appears to have fresh points and condenser. However, the locking collar is loose and you can freely turn it by hand. No wonder the PO said the last time he tried to start the machine it was backfiring! I have a hot date with a timing light this weekend. Also, I'm soaking the cylinders with Seafoam as suggested. Hoping for higher compression after that and an motor oil/filter change.

Yesterday evening I replaced the plug wires, rotor cap and varified correct firing order. I also drained the motor oil, added 10W30 and oil filter. The motor gave several promising hits when I was starting it but there's also some back pressure out the air filter each cycle. I guess that means a stuck intake valve, right?

jerry · Sep 28, 2012

HanSolo said:
Yesterday evening I replaced the plug wires, rotor cap and varified correct firing order. I also drained the motor oil, added 10W30 and oil filter. The motor gave several promising hits when I was starting it but there's also some back pressure out the air filter each cycle. I guess that means a stuck intake valve, right?

wisconsin engines are known for stuck valves, if you can reach it in the sparkplug hole and push it down with a dowel squirt lots of atf on it and work it a few times . It will be ok then.

HanSolo · Sep 30, 2012

jerry said:
wisconsin engines are known for stuck valves, if you can reach it in the sparkplug hole and push it down with a dowel squirt lots of atf on it and work it a few times . It will be ok then.

Saturday morning I started off by methodically going through each cylinder and confirming valve movement with the plugs out using a flashlight and mirror. I found a great video on YouTube for the Wisconsin VH4D http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7E-osxPDcOk that really helped me figure out the correct TDC position for cylinder one. I then buttoned everything up and the engine fired right up! Outstanding! So I'm thinking that the hydraulics are going to be a mess (FLT indicator is on). Of course the big drain plug is completely rusted so I rig a hose with a hand pump (used to siphon kerosene) and pump out only about a gallon of nasty, thick hydraulic fluid. I put in five gallons of fresh and fire the machine back up. After a few moments the indicator light is out and I'm running the lift arms up and down. Score! I take the machine out in the yard and start dressing a ditch line from a french drain job. It pushes really well and I'm pleased with the power. I'm so glad I didn't get a 600 series. The hydrostatic drive is so much stronger. Then I'm smelling like burning wood. Crack open the engine compartment and there's a small flame under the left engine shroud. Damn leaves! I got it out before damage but the extra heat hydo-locked the carb. After a cool down break I pull the shrouds and there's a damn mouse nest about the size of a football crammed in there. No wonder it got hot - zero air circulation on that head. After I got that mess all cleaned out, I ran the machine three hours hard and no problems. So at this point I've got a decent M700 for under $3000 including parts, fluids, etc. I've worked it about another four hours today after lubing points (I'll need to replace some) and tightening the alternator belt. I think I'll replace both hydraulic filters and the fluid soon, just to be sure the system has pure fluid. How much hydro fluid does the tank hold? I put in ten gallons and didn't see any weeping out the inspection hole yet.

mrdeere1959 · Sep 30, 2012

HanSolo said:
Saturday morning I started off by methodically going through each cylinder and confirming valve movement with the plugs out using a flashlight and mirror. I found a great video on YouTube for the Wisconsin VH4D http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7E-osxPDcOk that really helped me figure out the correct TDC position for cylinder one. I then buttoned everything up and the engine fired right up! Outstanding! So I'm thinking that the hydraulics are going to be a mess (FLT indicator is on). Of course the big drain plug is completely rusted so I rig a hose with a hand pump (used to siphon kerosene) and pump out only about a gallon of nasty, thick hydraulic fluid. I put in five gallons of fresh and fire the machine back up. After a few moments the indicator light is out and I'm running the lift arms up and down. Score! I take the machine out in the yard and start dressing a ditch line from a french drain job. It pushes really well and I'm pleased with the power. I'm so glad I didn't get a 600 series. The hydrostatic drive is so much stronger. Then I'm smelling like burning wood. Crack open the engine compartment and there's a small flame under the left engine shroud. Damn leaves! I got it out before damage but the extra heat hydo-locked the carb. After a cool down break I pull the shrouds and there's a damn mouse nest about the size of a football crammed in there. No wonder it got hot - zero air circulation on that head. After I got that mess all cleaned out, I ran the machine three hours hard and no problems. So at this point I've got a decent M700 for under $3000 including parts, fluids, etc. I've worked it about another four hours today after lubing points (I'll need to replace some) and tightening the alternator belt. I think I'll replace both hydraulic filters and the fluid soon, just to be sure the system has pure fluid. How much hydro fluid does the tank hold? I put in ten gallons and didn't see any weeping out the inspection hole yet.

17gal / 20 overall

Tazza · Oct 1, 2012

mrdeere1959 said:
17gal / 20 overall

Nice job, it's always good to hear it fire up after a long battle

I have problems with rat nests too, they do love the oil cooler area and the insulation on wiring......

HanSolo · Oct 15, 2012

Update to this thread... The rebuilt starter, new fuel pump, FPR, new plugs and wires did the trick. I was able to get that 1974 Wisconsin engine running. The distributor was turned 180 off timing. I drained and put in fresh hydraulic fluid. The system came alive and all cylinders and drive motors were working well. A few hours of work then I began hearing a wining noise. http://www.skidsteerforum.com/DesktopDefault.aspx?tabid=54&frmView=ShowPost&PostID=58647#58647 So I drained the fluid again, changed both filters and put in the "black gold" fluid. Still wining. However, the charging system failed and drained the battery. I pulled the crusty voltage regulator (part is available from Clark Forklift) and the alternator. I believe the sound is coming from the alternator which was almost completely frozen up. I dropped that off for rebuild today and the VR arrives tomorrow. Also, a seal has failed on one of the lift cylinders so I'll be getting to know that real soon too. On a positive note, I found a new Versatach medium duty fork attachment for $475 right down my road so that was a good find.

SkidRoe · Oct 15, 2012

HanSolo said:
Update to this thread... The rebuilt starter, new fuel pump, FPR, new plugs and wires did the trick. I was able to get that 1974 Wisconsin engine running. The distributor was turned 180 off timing. I drained and put in fresh hydraulic fluid. The system came alive and all cylinders and drive motors were working well. A few hours of work then I began hearing a wining noise. http://www.skidsteerforum.com/DesktopDefault.aspx?tabid=54&frmView=ShowPost&PostID=58647#58647 So I drained the fluid again, changed both filters and put in the "black gold" fluid. Still wining. However, the charging system failed and drained the battery. I pulled the crusty voltage regulator (part is available from Clark Forklift) and the alternator. I believe the sound is coming from the alternator which was almost completely frozen up. I dropped that off for rebuild today and the VR arrives tomorrow. Also, a seal has failed on one of the lift cylinders so I'll be getting to know that real soon too. On a positive note, I found a new Versatach medium duty fork attachment for $475 right down my road so that was a good find.

Low cost alternative/modern update - I just put a one wire alternator in my machine over the weekend:
http://www.skidsteerforum.com/DesktopDefault.aspx?tabid=54&frmView=ShowPost&PostID=58896

jerry · Oct 15, 2012

SkidRoe said:
Low cost alternative/modern update - I just put a one wire alternator in my machine over the weekend:
http://www.skidsteerforum.com/DesktopDefault.aspx?tabid=54&frmView=ShowPost&PostID=58896

be sure to also check the mechanical advance located under the point plate in the dist. If a wisconsin sits for awhile they tend to rust up solid.

HanSolo · Oct 17, 2012

jerry said:
be sure to also check the mechanical advance located under the point plate in the dist. If a wisconsin sits for awhile they tend to rust up solid.

Thanks Jerry. Yeah, after what it took to get that engine running - I'll be starting it up at least once weekly just to keep everything nice and loose. And thanks Skid - that is a real tidy solution to old school charging system. However, I've got a local company that does a great job rebuilding alternators and starters. The alternator rebuild was $78 and the new VR was $24. Not a bad deal for a fresh charging system.

SkidRoe · Oct 17, 2012

HanSolo said:
Thanks Jerry. Yeah, after what it took to get that engine running - I'll be starting it up at least once weekly just to keep everything nice and loose. And thanks Skid - that is a real tidy solution to old school charging system. However, I've got a local company that does a great job rebuilding alternators and starters. The alternator rebuild was $78 and the new VR was $24. Not a bad deal for a fresh charging system.

That is a pretty sweet deal. I love my new alternator. Nice to be able to use the lights again.

HanSolo · Oct 18, 2012

SkidRoe said:
That is a pretty sweet deal. I love my new alternator. Nice to be able to use the lights again.

I did the right hand lift cylinder rebuild this morning. Not too bad. The cap was pretty crusty and it took a pipe wrench to get loose. I purchased a spanner that was pretty much useless. Too short, not enough leverage. Local Bobcat sold me the wrong seal kits (for tilt) so I had to make an extra trip by there. But now I've got seal kits for all the cylinders because you know they're all going to fail sooner than later. I also had to have a hydraulic hose made for that lift cylinder. The original was splitting but not leaking yet. I'll speculate that was part reason the seals failed with rubber particles migrating into the cylinder. The inner most seal was completely shoot and came out in a bunch of ragged pieces. But... now I've got a pretty solid loader and I loaded my first piece of equipment with the new fork attachment. This thing is going to save a lot of wear and tear on my back!

M700 rebuild and restore project

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