Thomas 703T133 engine trouble

Jyuma · Sep 30, 2010

Hello I've owned a Thomas T133 for many years and it has always performed flawlessly. Two years ago, after many years of uninterrupted service, one of the lift hydraulic hoses finally gave out. I parked the machine in the yard and vowed to get a new set of hoses ASAP. Well... two years passed and I finally got around to changing the hoses so I went to start her up and pull her into the shop. I threw in a new battery and hit the switch... it sounded like the starter turned the engine but only for about one revolution and then it stopped. Repeated attempts only produced a click from the solenoid so I tried jumping the battery thinking maybe I needed a bit more juice. No good… the same thing. Click... click... click. I pulled the starter and it looked fried so I ordered a new one. Before putting in the new starter I put a long screwdriver in thru the opening where the starter fits into the bell housing and I wedged the tip into the teeth on the flywheel and attempted to rotate the flywheel by leveraging against the bell housing. No joy. It appears that the engine is seized... but how? I've had this loader for almost 20 years (I bought it used) and it worked fine the last time I used it (2 years ago). How can an engine seize just sitting there (yes, it was covered) or am I doing something wrong? I didn't want to just throw the starter in and hope for the best in case there's something else going on like hydro lock or something. Is there a way to kill the compression… maybe pull the injectors out just to make sure I don't have cylinders filled with water. Like maybe water leaked in thru the rotted muffler that had poked its way thru the cover? I'm stumped. Thanks for any help you can offer. Ed

Tazza · Sep 30, 2010

My first guess was hydraulic lock. If the muffler did poke through the tarp its possible you got water in a cylinder...... Not good if this happened as you know....
I would remove the glow plugs and rotate the engine by hand.

Jyuma · May 9, 2011

Tazza said:
My first guess was hydraulic lock. If the muffler did poke through the tarp its possible you got water in a cylinder...... Not good if this happened as you know....
I would remove the glow plugs and rotate the engine by hand.

Well... it's been about 8 months since I first posted about this problem and I finally got around to pulling the head. It looks like mice got in thru the exhaust port and a rotted muffler and there were actually acorns behind one of the valves. Pistons 3 and 4 were rusted pretty tight and the valves were rusted in the guides. Long story short… rebuilt the heads and cleaned up the cylinder walls. It turns out they weren't really that bad and they cleaned up nicely. Everything looks right and the engine turns over great but it won't start. I seem to remember the guy I bought the loader from telling me to never let it run out of fuel because it's very difficult to bleed the fuel lines and get the fuel flowing. Does anybody have any tips on how to bleed the fuel system in a Kabuto V1902B 4 cylinder diesel engine? I already followed the procedure outlined in the service manual but so far it isn't working. Maybe bad glow plugs?

Tazza · May 9, 2011

Jyuma said:
Well... it's been about 8 months since I first posted about this problem and I finally got around to pulling the head. It looks like mice got in thru the exhaust port and a rotted muffler and there were actually acorns behind one of the valves. Pistons 3 and 4 were rusted pretty tight and the valves were rusted in the guides. Long story short… rebuilt the heads and cleaned up the cylinder walls. It turns out they weren't really that bad and they cleaned up nicely. Everything looks right and the engine turns over great but it won't start. I seem to remember the guy I bought the loader from telling me to never let it run out of fuel because it's very difficult to bleed the fuel lines and get the fuel flowing. Does anybody have any tips on how to bleed the fuel system in a Kabuto V1902B 4 cylinder diesel engine? I already followed the procedure outlined in the service manual but so far it isn't working. Maybe bad glow plugs?

Kubota engines are easy to bleed.
Make sure you have a primer bulb attached to the fuel line. Open the bleed screw that should be on the injector pump where the fuel comes in. Squeeze the hand primer till you can't feel any air. Close the bleed screw and give it another pump, it should be stiff.
Crank, it should splutter at first, then fire. It takes time for the fuel to reach the injectors.
Its also possible that the injectors have stuck due to sitting. You can remove them and disassemble them. Keep the parts seperate though. The main part you want to fiddle with is the tip. Remove it and ensure the nozzle and housing move freely. You should be able to remove it and slide it back and forth with ease, you will see a small piece extending out of the injector, this is delicate, don't break it. I have had some that were rather tight, i had to hold the back of the nozzle in the vice and lever it up to free it. Used WD40 and compressed air till it was smooth, worked great.
If you remove the high pressure lines, you can crank the engine, look for fuel welling up on the delivery nozzles. If there is none, make sure your fuel stop lever is not stuck.
It gives you something to start with at least.
When cranking and NO glow plugs, give it a quick shot of wd40 through the intake, see if it gives a quick jump. If so, you have compression, but no fuel.

Jyuma · May 10, 2011

Tazza said:
Kubota engines are easy to bleed.
Make sure you have a primer bulb attached to the fuel line. Open the bleed screw that should be on the injector pump where the fuel comes in. Squeeze the hand primer till you can't feel any air. Close the bleed screw and give it another pump, it should be stiff.
Crank, it should splutter at first, then fire. It takes time for the fuel to reach the injectors.
Its also possible that the injectors have stuck due to sitting. You can remove them and disassemble them. Keep the parts seperate though. The main part you want to fiddle with is the tip. Remove it and ensure the nozzle and housing move freely. You should be able to remove it and slide it back and forth with ease, you will see a small piece extending out of the injector, this is delicate, don't break it. I have had some that were rather tight, i had to hold the back of the nozzle in the vice and lever it up to free it. Used WD40 and compressed air till it was smooth, worked great.
If you remove the high pressure lines, you can crank the engine, look for fuel welling up on the delivery nozzles. If there is none, make sure your fuel stop lever is not stuck.
It gives you something to start with at least.
When cranking and NO glow plugs, give it a quick shot of wd40 through the intake, see if it gives a quick jump. If so, you have compression, but no fuel.

Great tips... thank you. One more question... Primer bulb attached to the fuel line? Where? There is a flexible (neoprene?) fuel line coming from the fuel filter to the injector pump. Then a short length of fuel line (same material) from the output of the injector pump to the bleeder valve located adjacent to the high-pressure lines. There is also a thin fuel line that extends from the bleeder valve (I assume the output of the bleeder valve) to the side of the injector for cylinder 1 (the high pressure fuel lines connect to the tops of the injectors). The line then cascades to injector 2, 3 and 4 and then returns to the fuel tank near the top. I'm assuming that these thin lines are merely a bypass path back to the tank that delivers the output of the bleeder valve to each injector (maybe like priming the injector). I'm really not certain and the service manual doesn't even mention the path that the bleeder takes after the valve. Thanks again for your help. Ed

Tazza · May 10, 2011

Jyuma said:
Great tips... thank you. One more question... Primer bulb attached to the fuel line? Where? There is a flexible (neoprene?) fuel line coming from the fuel filter to the injector pump. Then a short length of fuel line (same material) from the output of the injector pump to the bleeder valve located adjacent to the high-pressure lines. There is also a thin fuel line that extends from the bleeder valve (I assume the output of the bleeder valve) to the side of the injector for cylinder 1 (the high pressure fuel lines connect to the tops of the injectors). The line then cascades to injector 2, 3 and 4 and then returns to the fuel tank near the top. I'm assuming that these thin lines are merely a bypass path back to the tank that delivers the output of the bleeder valve to each injector (maybe like priming the injector). I'm really not certain and the service manual doesn't even mention the path that the bleeder takes after the valve. Thanks again for your help. Ed

Bobcats have a primer bulb in the fuel line to help with priming, it also gives you positive fuel pressure too, good way to work out if you have a bad or weak lift pump. If there isn't one already fitted, its not a bad idea to attach one at some point.
All the other lines you are talking about, tap off lines from the injectors that go back to the tank don't really need to be worried about, they are all very low pressure.

Jyuma · May 12, 2011

Tazza said:
Bobcats have a primer bulb in the fuel line to help with priming, it also gives you positive fuel pressure too, good way to work out if you have a bad or weak lift pump. If there isn't one already fitted, its not a bad idea to attach one at some point.
All the other lines you are talking about, tap off lines from the injectors that go back to the tank don't really need to be worried about, they are all very low pressure.

Tazza
I'm trying to get the injectors apart to clean them but they won't budge. No problem getting them out of the head but I can't get them apart.
The lower half takes a 27mm wrench and the upper half takes a 24mm wrench. I pulled for all I was worth but no joy. Is there something preventing the two halves from turning other that 20 years of crud?
I see a hole in one surface of the upper nut area but it doesn't look like anything but a hole. Below is a picture of the injector showing the hole I'm talking about.

Any ideas or do I just pull harder?
Thanks
Ed

Tazza · May 12, 2011

Jyuma said:
Tazza
I'm trying to get the injectors apart to clean them but they won't budge. No problem getting them out of the head but I can't get them apart.
The lower half takes a 27mm wrench and the upper half takes a 24mm wrench. I pulled for all I was worth but no joy. Is there something preventing the two halves from turning other that 20 years of crud?
I see a hole in one surface of the upper nut area but it doesn't look like anything but a hole. Below is a picture of the injector showing the hole I'm talking about.

Any ideas or do I just pull harder?
Thanks
Ed

That indent doesn't lock anything.
I use a ring spanner on the top half and hold the bottom in a vice. Just keep hauling, it should seperate. Its probably rusted up a little in the threads. If you have two ring spanners of the correct size, use pipes and it should crack the seal too. They can be pretty tight, but i have never had one taht didn't come apart with a little extra force.

Jyuma · May 12, 2011

Tazza said:
That indent doesn't lock anything.
I use a ring spanner on the top half and hold the bottom in a vice. Just keep hauling, it should seperate. Its probably rusted up a little in the threads. If you have two ring spanners of the correct size, use pipes and it should crack the seal too. They can be pretty tight, but i have never had one taht didn't come apart with a little extra force.

You were right... I just had to slide a 2 foot pipe over my breaker bar and that did the trick. They didn't go easy but they did go.
It's good that I took them apart because there was a lot of corrosion inside the injectors. They cleaned up pretty nice and tomorrow should be the day the engine comes to life again.
Thanks for all your help but don't go too far... there's a lot more that can (and will) go wrong.

Jyuma · May 14, 2011

Jyuma said:
You were right... I just had to slide a 2 foot pipe over my breaker bar and that did the trick. They didn't go easy but they did go.
It's good that I took them apart because there was a lot of corrosion inside the injectors. They cleaned up pretty nice and tomorrow should be the day the engine comes to life again.
Thanks for all your help but don't go too far... there's a lot more that can (and will) go wrong.

Success!!!
Today the engine came to life for the first time in at least 3 years but not before a final round of problems.
The high pressure fuel lines were corroded at the connectors and I had to take a wire wheel to them.
The fuel line from the fuel pump to the injector pump was clogged with a combination of rust and brown muck, so I replaced all the fuel lines from the tank to the injector pump.
Once I was getting fuel to the injector pump it wasn't pumping fuel to # 4 cylinder... stuck valve in the injector pump... so I disassembled the injector pump and gave it a thorough cleaning.
Of course I learned the hard way that the only sure fire method to bleed the high pressure fuel lines is to loosen the nuts on the top of the injectors and crank the engine (decompression lever engaged) until you see fuel welling up from around the nut. Be sure to re-tighten them all.
When the engine first fired the entire area became filled with dense smoke as the residual oil and extra fuel was burned off but within minutes she was purring like a kitten with no smoke at all.
There are leaks galore with hydraulic fluid oozing from seals and fittings but nothing serious enough to stop the controls from working.
Thanks for all your help... I couldn't have done it without you.

Ed

Tazza · May 15, 2011

Jyuma said:
Success!!!
Today the engine came to life for the first time in at least 3 years but not before a final round of problems.
The high pressure fuel lines were corroded at the connectors and I had to take a wire wheel to them.
The fuel line from the fuel pump to the injector pump was clogged with a combination of rust and brown muck, so I replaced all the fuel lines from the tank to the injector pump.
Once I was getting fuel to the injector pump it wasn't pumping fuel to # 4 cylinder... stuck valve in the injector pump... so I disassembled the injector pump and gave it a thorough cleaning.
Of course I learned the hard way that the only sure fire method to bleed the high pressure fuel lines is to loosen the nuts on the top of the injectors and crank the engine (decompression lever engaged) until you see fuel welling up from around the nut. Be sure to re-tighten them all.
When the engine first fired the entire area became filled with dense smoke as the residual oil and extra fuel was burned off but within minutes she was purring like a kitten with no smoke at all.
There are leaks galore with hydraulic fluid oozing from seals and fittings but nothing serious enough to stop the controls from working.
Thanks for all your help... I couldn't have done it without you.
Ed

Excellent news! Good to hear you git it up and running.
Injectors to an extent are pretty forgiving if they have been sitting for a while. Free up the nozzle and a good clean generally brings them back to life. I know its not the ideal way to do it, a shop can set cracking pressures to get it just right.
At least you now know what areas need attention next.

Jyuma · Jun 5, 2011

Tazza said:
Excellent news! Good to hear you git it up and running.
Injectors to an extent are pretty forgiving if they have been sitting for a while. Free up the nozzle and a good clean generally brings them back to life. I know its not the ideal way to do it, a shop can set cracking pressures to get it just right.
At least you now know what areas need attention next.

There should be a special place in hell for people like me who allow a perfectly fine skid steer loader to rot in the elements. So... to borrow a phrase from Mike Holmes... I've decided to gut it.
My question is... does anybody care? Would anyone like to see me post progress reports with before and after pictures of the project or should I just stfu and do what I've got to do? You guys have been such a source of strength and information to me that I'd like to give something back but I have no wish to overstay my welcome or turn this forum into something it was never intended to be.

skidsteer.ca · Jun 5, 2011

Jyuma said:
There should be a special place in hell for people like me who allow a perfectly fine skid steer loader to rot in the elements. So... to borrow a phrase from Mike Holmes... I've decided to gut it.
My question is... does anybody care? Would anyone like to see me post progress reports with before and after pictures of the project or should I just stfu and do what I've got to do? You guys have been such a source of strength and information to me that I'd like to give something back but I have no wish to overstay my welcome or turn this forum into something it was never intended to be.

No such thing as over staying your welcome here!
The kubota diesels are in many machines and good information for all of us. Further I'm sure the Thomas fans as well as a few veterans here would like to see how they look on the inside.
I am going to give you a kick in the A$$ for letting it sit so long, sometimes we are are worst enemies. On that note a have a 71 mach 1 I better fix the carb and fire up, gotta go!

Tazza · Jun 6, 2011

skidsteer.ca said:
No such thing as over staying your welcome here!
The kubota diesels are in many machines and good information for all of us. Further I'm sure the Thomas fans as well as a few veterans here would like to see how they look on the inside.
I am going to give you a kick in the A$$ for letting it sit so long, sometimes we are are worst enemies. On that note a have a 71 mach 1 I better fix the carb and fire up, gotta go!

I have done the same, i left my S250 sit in the weather a little long that allowed the oil cooler rust and leak. Thankfully i was able to repair it though,
We all like to see pictures.

Jyuma · Jun 6, 2011

Tazza said:
I have done the same, i left my S250 sit in the weather a little long that allowed the oil cooler rust and leak. Thankfully i was able to repair it though,
We all like to see pictures.

The gut I am speaking of is the loader itself, not the Kubota engine. As a matter of pure luck (a rare occurrence for me) the engine runs fine. It has a little blow-by but for an engine that sat for 2 or 3 years with water and acorns where only fuel should be... it's actually not in bad shape.
I can't say the same for the loader though... rust is everywhere. I've already started removing the finish, which has been reduced to about a 50% to 50% rust to paint ratio.
Here's a few pictures of the seat pan before and after.
In this picture the entire area that looks a little shinny was completely gone. I attached 4 pieces of 16 ga cold rolled steel (from the bottom) and plug welded them in place. I then ran a continuous weld all around the opening from the top and around the edges of the new steel from the bottom. You can see the outline of the bottom weld in this top view... it shows as straight lines of a lighter color rust. lol

This next picture shows the new steel and welds from the bottom. Notice the steel channel welded across the bottom for extra support. The Seat Pan was so badly rusted that I thought it might be a good idea to give it some extra strength where my fat rear-end would be sitting. hehehe.

The photo below is a top view of the Seat Pan after paint with POR-15. bTw... I'm calling it the seat pan because that's where the seat goes. I didn't show the seat in the photos.
Note: POR-15 is a special rust preventative paint that is designed to go directly over rusted steel. In fact, it actually adheres best to rusty steel. POR-15 forms some kind of chemical bond with the steel/rust and prevents any further rusting... for good.

The last photo is a bottom view of the Seat Pan after paint. It came out pretty good considering that 30% of the seat pan was completely gone. It might not be the beat looking fix I've ever done but it will hold the seat and it will never rust again.

bTw... If your interested in checking out POR-15, here's their web site but I warn you... the price will make you weep. http://www.por15.com/
More to come...

Jyuma · Jun 6, 2011

Jyuma said:
The gut I am speaking of is the loader itself, not the Kubota engine. As a matter of pure luck (a rare occurrence for me) the engine runs fine. It has a little blow-by but for an engine that sat for 2 or 3 years with water and acorns where only fuel should be... it's actually not in bad shape.
I can't say the same for the loader though... rust is everywhere. I've already started removing the finish, which has been reduced to about a 50% to 50% rust to paint ratio.
Here's a few pictures of the seat pan before and after.
In this picture the entire area that looks a little shinny was completely gone. I attached 4 pieces of 16 ga cold rolled steel (from the bottom) and plug welded them in place. I then ran a continuous weld all around the opening from the top and around the edges of the new steel from the bottom. You can see the outline of the bottom weld in this top view... it shows as straight lines of a lighter color rust. lol

This next picture shows the new steel and welds from the bottom. Notice the steel channel welded across the bottom for extra support. The Seat Pan was so badly rusted that I thought it might be a good idea to give it some extra strength where my fat rear-end would be sitting. hehehe.

The photo below is a top view of the Seat Pan after paint with POR-15. bTw... I'm calling it the seat pan because that's where the seat goes. I didn't show the seat in the photos.
Note: POR-15 is a special rust preventative paint that is designed to go directly over rusted steel. In fact, it actually adheres best to rusty steel. POR-15 forms some kind of chemical bond with the steel/rust and prevents any further rusting... for good.

The last photo is a bottom view of the Seat Pan after paint. It came out pretty good considering that 30% of the seat pan was completely gone. It might not be the beat looking fix I've ever done but it will hold the seat and it will never rust again.

bTw... If your interested in checking out POR-15, here's their web site but I warn you... the price will make you weep. http://www.por15.com/
More to come...

bTw... If you haven't already figured it out... my Avatar is a photo of my loader. Here it is in a size big enough to let you see how badly rusted it is.
See the head of the pin in the lower portion of the QuickTach? That's the one I cut-off and welded back together.

skidsteer.ca · Jun 7, 2011

Jyuma said:
bTw... If you haven't already figured it out... my Avatar is a photo of my loader. Here it is in a size big enough to let you see how badly rusted it is.
See the head of the pin in the lower portion of the QuickTach? That's the one I cut-off and welded back together.

That is not the worst I have seen.
Be careful layer steel plates as in your seat pan Rust likes any place it can get between two layers or any damp locations. I should dig up some of the photos I did of the 853 a few years back. It had pieces gone too, and swelling between layere pieces bending them all up. Hopefully your seat pan is one of the worst spots. Surface rust is not such a big issue, just ugly. Rusted out on the other hand is a lot of work.
Skidsteer.ca

Tazza · Jun 7, 2011

skidsteer.ca said:
That is not the worst I have seen.
Be careful layer steel plates as in your seat pan Rust likes any place it can get between two layers or any damp locations. I should dig up some of the photos I did of the 853 a few years back. It had pieces gone too, and swelling between layere pieces bending them all up. Hopefully your seat pan is one of the worst spots. Surface rust is not such a big issue, just ugly. Rusted out on the other hand is a lot of work.
Skidsteer.ca

That's nothing, i should get you some pictures or machines i'm working on..... One isn't too bad, there are places that are though, the other is pretty bad all over. The seat plate on both were stuffed. So bad that i had to cut the entire thing out and make a new base, ok not much cutting as they both actually fell out, i just had to cut more metal out to get a solid base to weld to.

Jyuma · Jun 7, 2011

Tazza said:
That's nothing, i should get you some pictures or machines i'm working on..... One isn't too bad, there are places that are though, the other is pretty bad all over. The seat plate on both were stuffed. So bad that i had to cut the entire thing out and make a new base, ok not much cutting as they both actually fell out, i just had to cut more metal out to get a solid base to weld to.

Now that's what I'm talkin about... I feel better every time one of you guys tells me it's not as bad as I think it is.

Uh oh... just when I was feeling better; I found the trailer. It was completely buried by thick brush way in the back of the yard. I even forgot that I had a trailer for the loader. The plate says 1990 so it's been sitting back there for 21 years.
I cut the brush away... some of it with trunks 2" thick... and slapped a chain on the old hulk. Needed to use the 4WD on my truck just to break the trailer loose from it's 21 year mooring but it came out in one piece. The wheels even turned... amazing... and only one of the 4 tires was flat.
Here it is after I cleaned it up a bit. If it checks out mechanically and structurally (roadworthy), I'll paint it to match the loader.

Thomas 703T133 engine trouble

Help Support SkidSteer Forum:

Well-known member

Moderator

Well-known member

Moderator

Well-known member

Moderator

Well-known member

Moderator

Well-known member

Well-known member

Moderator

Well-known member

Well-known member

Moderator

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Moderator

Well-known member

Similar threads