Been away from here for awhile. Had lots of stuff going on. Anywho.... I Bought a Gehl 3510 at an online auction yesterday. Only seen a picture of it so far, gotta pick it up Monday or Tuesday. Says is "non running" so my main concern is loading it on a trailer. Thought about strapping the handles in the forward position so it would roll, but I'm not sure how well this would work. Gonna be just me loading it, unless I can get some assistance from someone at the site. Anyway, price was right $500. Comes with a manure bucket and a dirt bucket. So I guess if I can't make it run I can always part it out. Anyone have any info on these? There is nothing on the internet about them at all. All I can find are pictures and parts/operator manuals. I don't want to invest in a manual until I see if it's worth doing anything with. Never owned a Gehl, so any help would be appreciated. Any experience with them, opinions (good or bad, I don't care) would also be welcome. Thanks a bunch guys.
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OldMachinist
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The only thing I can tell you is that the engine is a Ford VSG411. The Bobcat 542B, many marine generators and some Toro commercial lawn equipment use the same engine so engine parts shouldn't be a problem.
The buckets alone are worth what you paid so do what what you said and tie the levers forward, make sure the parking brake is released and drag it on the trailer. You might want to mix up some soapy water to take with you in case it doesn't want to roll it will make sliding it on the trailer bed easier.
The buckets alone are worth what you paid so do what what you said and tie the levers forward, make sure the parking brake is released and drag it on the trailer. You might want to mix up some soapy water to take with you in case it doesn't want to roll it will make sliding it on the trailer bed easier.
Thanks for the info. I found a few possible engines that might be in it. KSG or VSG series, 411 or 413. But I wasn't sure. Glad to know parts are still available though. That will make things easier. I did manage to locate and download a parts manual online believe it or not. No specs in it though. Doesn't even show where the hydraulic tank is..... It shows the fuel tank though. I'm guessing it's opposite the fuel tank as there is a cap in the back of each of the loader arm uprights. No info on pump pressure or flow. I sent an email to Gehl to see if they can offer any information, but i'm not going to hold my breath. At least I have part numbers to work with. Yeah I figured with 2 buckets, for $500 it was worth picking up, even if it doesn't run. Worse case the motor has a rod through the block, best case it is fixable or rebuildable. Have to wait until I can get it home to know for sure. Thanks again OM. Good tip with the soapy water, I'll definitely do that.
OldMachinist
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The VSG411 and VSG413 are the same physical size engine and ether will fit in the Gehl. The 411 is 67 cubic inches and the 413 is 89 cubic inches. The 413 was used in the Gehl 4510. You can get a rebuilt engine for $2150 plus freight from here. http://www.kcpp.com/remanufactured_engines.htm
If you find a used 413 make sure you get the distributer and wiring because I think they were electronic versus the points used on the 411.
Well, got it home today. Luckily there was someone at the location to load it for me. He had a newer JCB telehandler (very nice machine), he just picked it up and sat it on the trailer. Didn't cost me a penny to load. I was happy.
The motor rolls over, and I did get it to fire a few times, but I couldn't get it to start yet. I'll try again tomorrow. Definitely has the 411 Ford engine it. It's point ignition. Carburetor is either new, or has been rebuilt very recently. It's very shiny. There is one bad omen though. Just from cranking it over to try and start it, the cooling system builds pressure. When I crack the cap it 'poofs' a little. Could be a blown head gasket or a cracked head. I doubt it's a cracked block. No coolant in the oil though, so I guess that's a good sign. May just be a head gasket. Will know more if I can get it running. You can tell it has been on a farm, there is manure in every nook and cranny. But the hydraulic fluid looks new and there has been quite a few hydraulic lines replaced recently. There are some wires that have been cut and left hanging, and a few wires that have factory connectors, but aren't connected to anything. That will take some figuring out. So far i'm pleased with it. That could change after I get it running long enough to check the hydraulics though...... We'll see. Didn't hear back from Gehl today, so maybe tomorrow, or maybe never. I'll post more as I make progress. Right now I gotta go eat again before my blood sugar tanks for like the 4th time today
Well, I cannot get this thing to start. Spent 5 hours yesterday trying everything. It will fire with ether, but will not fire with gas (even new gas). Plugs, points, wires, are all good. Good spark. Firing order is right. Even turned the distributor both directions, still nothing. It doesn't pop back through the carb or anything. Unhooked the fuel pump, emptied the carb, and tried just priming it with a bit of gas, again nothing. But again, shoot some ether in, it fires. Very odd.
I pulled the valve cover off to make sure the valves were operating as they should. They are. Nothing is worn, and everything looks pretty clean (surprisingly).
I went an talked to the local (25 miles away) Gehl distributor yesterday after my attempts to start the thing failed. He said the engines are pretty good, and hasn't known them to have any chronic problems. He thinks it may be a head gasket issue, but couldn't be 100% certain. He did let me know parts are still available, and making sure the hydraulics are good before putting a bunch of money in it is a good idea. Hard to do that though if I can't get it running....... He was nice enough to give me a copy of the electrical schematic from his manual. I offered to pay something for it, but he said not to worry about it. Anyway, thought about it on the way home and it seems even with a bad head gasket it should still run. I got home and decided to run a compression test on it. Heres what I found;
Cylinder order 1-2-3-4
DRY: 60-60-82-85
WET: 62-65-122-125 (3 shots of oil)
2-40 lbs difference between wet and dry is a bit excessive. Something isn't right. Think it's time to pull the head off and see what's going on........
Well, go the head off. Wish I hadn't pulled it now. 2 of the 4 cylinders are cracked, another has deep rusted scores around the bore, and the other is not the best but is the best of the 4. Head has a lot of carbon build-up but is in good shape yet. I posted pics of the cylinders if they show up. Not quite sure what to do with it now. As OM showed me, an engine is about $2200, that's a lot of money to put into it just to see if the hydraulics work. Anyone have any suggestions??? I'm wide open here.....
It depends on how its mounted. If its belt driven, if you can get hold of a cheap running rider mower engine. Even if its under powered, as long as it runs and allows you to test it.
If there is no water in the oil, it should be fine.
I would have thought the engine would have still started with the damaged pistons. It seems the load was too high to get them to fire. Ether may have been the cause of the damage too. It can detonate early and crack pistons. It seems the previous owner may have given it one too many large snorts of it and killed the engine.
Hi Taz. Looking at the parts book, the pump is coupled directly to the motor. There is an adapter plate that bolts to the flywheel which has (I am assuming) internal splines the drive the pump. The factory used a steel 'bellhousing' made from sheet steel that bolts to the back of the motor and also serves as the rear engine mount. The pump bolts to the back of that. I guess in simpler terms, it's just like an engine/manual transmission combo (without the clutch and pressure plate). But instead of a transmission, there is a hydraulic pump. No belts or anything.
It's not the pistons that are cracked and rusted, it's the cylinder walls of the block. Guess I could have worded that a little different, I get in a hurry sometimes. Judging from the rust rings in the cylinders, it looks like it has sat for quite awhile at one point. If it had water or inadequate antifreeze in it, it could have froze and cracked the cylinders. The antifreeze that was in it looked brand new. Hard to say what happened to it though. I haven't pulled the motor yet, so I don't know what shape the pistons are in. From the looks of the cylinders though, the skirts are probably pretty scored up. I doubt they will be any good. The block is pretty much junk. If it could be sleeved, it would still cost a small fortune to get it running. What kinda ticks me off is that I had a 37HP Wisconsin engine that I sold last summer. I bought that and the 30HP engine I wanted for my Bobcat as a pair. It ran fine but I didn't have a use for it so I sold it. Now I could use it. That's the way it always goes isn't it???
Not quite sure how I can check the hydraulics yet, my brain is still chewing on that. I'm 95% certain the pump has a splined shaft. Don't know for sure, but it the only thing that makes sense with the way this is set up. That's what holding me up. The pump adapter that bolts to the flywheel, is as big as the flywheel, so I can't use that. As far as spare motors go, I don't have any, other than electric. I'll have to get the motor out I guess to see exactly what I'm dealing with then go from there. I don't mind spending a little money on it. I just don't want to sink a bunch of money into this until I know what state the hydraulics are in. I'm sure you all can understand that.
If the hydraulics are good I'll have to decide on motor options. I need at least 30HP. My brain is also chewing on that. I'm just hoping it doesn't choke or chip a tooth.....
Ah, cracked cylinder walls. Your theory of anti-freeze is totally possible.
I know the style of mounting, it will most probably be a spline as you mentioned. There needs to be splines of some style to allow the motor to slide out.
For an engine, after you work out if the hydraulics are good, you can get Kubota engines at a reasonable price. A V2203 is about 45HP
If you can find a large enough and powerful enough drill, you can try spinning the pump. I don't know how well it would work, just an idea.
Random thought,,,pull motor and pump,,,,connect aux lines off anouther running machine to in and out lines from pump on nonrunning machine,,, you can test every thing except actual pump on non running machine.
I thought I had seen a post where someone had moved a dead machine by doing this but not sure.
From what I can gather from the parts book, it appears to have a triple pump setup. Tandem piston pumps and a gear pump. The piston pumps are for the hydrostatic drive, and the gear pump is for the loader. I'll have to dig into it to see for sure. Haven't had time to do much with it the past couple days. If so, I don't think it would move by hooking it to the Bobcat, but I could probably test the loader.
I was thinking something similar to what Taz suggested, but I don't have a drill that powerful. I do have 1/2HP, 1HP, 2-1/2HP, 5HP, and a 6-1/2HP motors though. If I can find a way to couple one of them to the pump. Not sure how well it would work, but at this point I don't have a lot of options. Thought about my 3/4" drive impact, but that might wreak havoc on the pump internals. Probably better stick with a motor or something similar.
I'm gonna be busy all weekend so I probably won't be able to do much with it. But as soon as I get a free minute, I'll be out there.
This isn't an overly exciting topic, but I'll keep you all posted just the same
now that the head is off does it turn over fairly easy? Maybe could drive the pump by connecting a motor to the damper pulley of the bad engine?
Don't use the impact gun! you will kill something.
I like Jerry's idea, spinning it with the starter would give you enough speed to give it a test. Make sure you don't crank it for too long though or you'll burn the starter out. I know my 743 will move with the starter cranking, slowly, but it does function.
Well finally got back at it. Tried a 6-1/2HP electric motor on the crank pulley, but it wouldn't turn it over, just burned the belt. I said "screw it" and pulled the motor out of it. It's not a 411 it's a 413. It has been replaced before. But since it's junk I guess that doesn't really matter. Every blade on the fan was folded back on the ends, so something got in there at some point. Anywho, got a deal on a Toyota 20R motor and went and picked it up today. I can definitely make it work. Have built a few 20R's and 22R's over the years, so I am familiar with them. The intake and exhaust are set up the same as the Ford engine, so that will make things easier. Even got a header with the engine. Since the stock exhaust manifold won't work anyway, that will save a lot of work when I get that far. Flywheel is 1/4" different between the motors, so no interference problems. Plus the Toyota has electronic ignition. After I got the motor out I power washed the entire machine out. There was about 3" of manure in the engine bay. It's very clean now. I'll post pictures as I make progress with the swap. Not much info out there on the 3510, maybe this escapade will help someone else out. I just have to decide on whether I want to modify the existing motor to pump housing, or just make a new one. Leaning toward the latter. May just be easier in the long run. The Toyota engine has about 95HP compared to the Ford's roughly 38. I don't think it will be a big issue as long as I don't beat the crap out of it. That's IF the hydraulics work. If they don't, it'll be a whole lot of work for nothing. But oh well. If I part it out and scrap the rest I'll still make a few bucks off it. Stay tuned.......
Do you have a govenor for the new engine? You will need it to keep the revs the same under different loads. It will still allow you to check the condition of the pumps.
Yup, still have the governor off the Ford engine. Have to fab a bracket but that shouldn't be a problem. I haven't gotten rid of anything off the old engine yet. I'm gonna wait until the new one is in and working first. First thing I have to do it dig up a flywheel. The Toyota came with a flexplate but the pump drive was bolted to a stick flywheel on the Ford. I guess one of the local (40miles away) yards has 3 of them, so I have to call and see. I also need to pick up some 3/16" and 1/4" plate to fab the new "bellhousing". I'm going to make my own instead of butchering the original one. Probably safer that way. I'll also have to find a radiator. The inlet and outlets are opposites, plus the original has a bad spot where something (probably whatever messed the fan up) hit it. Plus about 5, 1/2" holes through the fins between the cores. Not sure what happened there. I'll find something that'll work.
Make sure you take lots of pictures! sounds like a good project.
