Should I be able to turn the belt pulley for the valve cam shaft by hand? The timing belt snapped in half when I tried to start it. Motor ran fine the last time I used it ( 2 1/2 months ago). Went to start motor. Turn over slow at first. Seemed reasonable since battery is several years old and loader sits for periods of time. Speed of motor increased but would not start. Tracked problem down to the belt being broken. Could the belt breaking have caused any damage to the valves, etc.?
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OldMachinist
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It doesn't seem like you should be able to turn the camshaft pulley freely by hand as there should be some pressure on the camshaft by the valve springs. There are a couple of other posts on here about the Peugeot engine and the timing belt and at least one of them stated that that engine is an interference engine which means that if the belt breaks and the crankshaft continues to turn one or more valves can be bent or broken by the pistons hitting them.
Thank you OldMachinist. Doesn't seem very positive so far. I guess I may have to take off the valve cover and check for damage. Not sure if I will be able to see any damage even if there is.
If the timing belt went, you will have to replace push rods at a minimum. Possibly even valves yet. They are not free spinning. If the bent breaks, valves will be sitting low and be struck by the piston.
Let me know how you go, i have re-timed a pug engine, its not that hard to do. You will need to do that when you replace the belt.
Talked to the mechanic at my local Bobcat dealer. I have to say that I am very lucky to have such willing and helpful people there. He provided my with tips that will help me proceed with evaluating. He did say that if there was no damage to my head, I should be able to turn the cam shaft gear by hand. Unfortunately, I can't turn it. I will update this thread as I go so others may benefit if they run into this issue. Although a long shot, I am considering replacing with a kubota v1903. The conversion kit from Bobcat is $6800 but I can find rebuilts in the $3000 to $3500 range. I just have to find out what else is in the conversion kit and the cost.
The conversion *kit* includes a new bell housing that that holds the engine to the pump. You will need a starter, flywheel, new radiator hoses, air box and hoses, oil hose to the reserve tank, a new engine bay harness. The pump needs to be flipped over too. Its not quite as simple as pull the engine and drop a new one in as the pug's fly wheel is on the right, the kubota is on the left (when looking from the rear door)
The way i would proceed is to pull the head off and see where you are at. You may be lucky and get out of it for the price of a head re-co, timing belt AND idlers do those too. And a head gasket of course.
Did it run well before it died? no smoke, easy starting? if so, it may be worth the money to repair, even if a new head is required.
Do let me know how you go.
Answer to above questions. The bobcat has a little over 2k hours. Motor ran well, no smoke except when cold for a few seconds. Starts easy except when temp is in 30's. Then two cycles of the glow plugs and it starts good. From what I understand this is fairly typical of the Peugeot motor. Head has been pulled and dropped off at local shop. The eval result is I only need one exhaust valve and a new cam shaft that cracked in half. The cam journals were not damaged. I will also be replacing the copper seals and flame tubes for injectors, valve seals, head gasket etc. I feel pretty lucky at this point since I don't have to purchase a new head. There wasn't as much damage as one might think there could have been. The only thing I can think of is that the motor wasn't actually running when the belt broke. I was just trying to start it after it had sat for several months and the belt snapped so the motor wasn't turning at high revolutions. Tazza, you state I should do the idlers. What do you mean? Is there something I should look for? I have spun one of the idlers for the timing belt and it spins smooth and continues to spin after giving it a little twist. FYI to other Peugeot owners. It is recommended that the timing belt be replaced every thousand hours. Mine was the original (you can tell if says Dayco on it). $90 and a day of putzing would have saved me at this time, an estimated $700 to $800.
There is an idler and a tensioner, i replaced mine as it had about 4,000 hours on it. Mine did feel a bit rough so they needed changing, if you are confident yours are smooth and without any slack they should be ok. For the extra $100 i replaced mine, just for peace of mind.
Good to hear you only have one damaged valve, it could have been much worse.
The Pug engines are very good, smooth and quiet, even with 4000+ hours, mine worked great. No smoke when running, starts easily too.
Well I will make this quick. My follow up which I working on with detail on tips on things to be concerned about, etc. got blown away because I took to long. So, good news is motor is together and running. Total cost between $700 and $800. Make sure you follow procedures for installing timing belt and make sure position the cam shaft, crank shaft, and injector pump correctly or in best case scenario the motor will not start and worst case the motor goes crunch and you rebuild the head. I will try to check here to see if any one has questions. Oh, also replace seal on gear case of cooling fan since much of that is easy to get with head and exhaust off. All in all, if I can do this, I think the average person with some mechanical ability can. Would put more down here but I don't want to waste my time and lose what I have typed since I lost it once already.
And thank you to Tazza and Old Machinist for your input. It was greatly appreciated. FFPK
Good to hear you got it up and running again. Thats the reason the book tells you to rotate the engine two revolutions by hand, if it binds up, you know its not right.
bobbie-g
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Wow, good job with the head replacement. Any many many thx for the feedback so the rest of us can learn. --- Timing belt: Page 7-39 of the 751 service manual states the timing belt service interval is 1600 hrs. Anyone hear anything different that's fairly authoritative? --- My 751C with the Pug engine has 2200 hrs now, runs fine (new belt at 1200 hrs). My glow plugs are not great at the moment, but I put in what I think is an inferior set recently and didn't seem to help starting. I had really good luck using Bosch replacements when I swapped them out several hundred hours ago, and will put in another set of those this fall. Shopping around will find them at about 1/4 the price that Bobcat dealers want. Sad. I've not found a place that will sell Pug parts, so I'm stuck with the Bobcat dealer. I'm just waiting on them to decide they will stop supporting the Pug engine. Only a matter of time. That engine was used on a Pugeot 306 sedan, but I don't think it was ever imported to the US in any quantity, so that's not really any help to us with the Frenchie engine.
---RCFor parts, i'd check out Ebay in the UK, they are pretty common over there.Wow, good job with the head replacement. Any many many thx for the feedback so the rest of us can learn. --- Timing belt: Page 7-39 of the 751 service manual states the timing belt service interval is 1600 hrs. Anyone hear anything different that's fairly authoritative? --- My 751C with the Pug engine has 2200 hrs now, runs fine (new belt at 1200 hrs). My glow plugs are not great at the moment, but I put in what I think is an inferior set recently and didn't seem to help starting. I had really good luck using Bosch replacements when I swapped them out several hundred hours ago, and will put in another set of those this fall. Shopping around will find them at about 1/4 the price that Bobcat dealers want. Sad. I've not found a place that will sell Pug parts, so I'm stuck with the Bobcat dealer. I'm just waiting on them to decide they will stop supporting the Pug engine. Only a matter of time. That engine was used on a Pugeot 306 sedan, but I don't think it was ever imported to the US in any quantity, so that's not really any help to us with the Frenchie engine.
That sounds about right for the belt, its pretty simple to replace. If its old, it wouldn't be a bad idea to swap it, i'd like to have it changed at 1,000 hours but thats just me.
Hi, I am new to this forum. i read Tarza say he had instructions for replacing a timing belt on the PUG engine? mine has 1390 hrs and i thought i better put one in. Don't know how to email him but would appreciate any [email protected]
sorry, tazza, didn't read your name right. tks
I actually replaced mine with the engine out, but i'm sure you can do it in place.
Remove the covers, you will notice there is a hole in the cam sprocket and the injector pump. There will be a tapped hole in the block that you can insert a bolt through the sprocket and into the block to hold it in place. Same with the injector pump. There is a hole in the fly wheel too, I used a pin punch through the flywheel and into the housing the the engine. They will not always line up first try, spin the engine over by hand till they do and lock it all in place. Remove the tensioner, idler and belt, replace them and you're set.
Its really quite easy.
Just when you're done, rotate the engine by hand at least 2 revolutions to ensure its right and the valves are not touching the pistons.
Yes Tazza is correct with rotating the engine at a min 2 revolutions. I used a rachet on the left side motor (looking at motor while it is still installed) and very slowly turned the crank shaft. What I feel is a very important note is that the motor should only be turned in one direction, which I believe is clockwise when looking at left side of the motor. I believe that is so the belt has tension when pulling on the fuel injector pump and the valves. I know Tazza and Old Machinists can help you better than I probably could but if you have any questions I maybe able to help also. Just post on this thread because I get notified via E mail that some posted. I check my E mail maybe every one to three days. If you want to correspond quicker, put your E mail on here and I will contact you via another E mail address that I check more often. I have been there so I just want to help. FFPK
thanks guys i am going to order the new timing belt today and try it . i'll let you know how it goes. again tks
If you do the belt, you really should do the tensioner and idler too..... At the very least, whith the belt off, feel for any play or 'grittyness' in the bearings. If there is any doubt, change them.
Let us know how the job goes.
